Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Jul 9, 2011.
Right. Takahashi rightfully had the highest PCS in the free skate, followed by Lambiel.
2004 who was on the podium again for ice dance after N&K? I can't even remember. Was it Belbin & Agosto? lol Shows how much I cared about that year after B&K retired/ split up.
I didn't have a problem with the top 2 teams in '98 Oly's. I di have a problem with A&P winning Oly bronze. I understand B&K screwed up on the GW and their OD was crap so I guess the only other option would be L&A being bronze medalists.
Don't get me wrong, I loved A&P's program but barely doing anything but kneeling on ice for the 1st minute of your program doesn't deserve a bronze in my books, never mind faltering in the OD to boot.
N-K won with "Pink panter" over Denkova-Staviisky Hendel masterpiece FD.
And 2006 ECh in Lion. Audience were so unhappy with N-K gold andDelobel-Shonfelder 4th place
The audience barely clapped for N-K and G-G, but roared for D-V anytime they had the chance and then booed the tech controller and tech specialist and everyone else that they felt had a hand in D-V finishing third.. LOL.. I loved it.. NB-K and G-G kinda "knew" they just weren't going to get any love... How about the 2000 or 2001 NHK where a sloppy Slutskaya beat and clean and sharp Butryskaya? That was ridiculous...
When I think of D&S I think of their '03 OD to Baroque music. That to this day is one of my all time favourite OD's ever.
Actually, S&Z had a hand down on their throw in the SP and weren't clean.
I thought that this result was fair either way, but was surprised that B&S won so decisively (7-2 IIRC) what was so strange was that it was the North American judges who really seemed to ream S&Z ( a 5.7 for technical merit from the American judge). Pretty much all of the judges/ coaches /skaters I knew who used to post on the boards/newsgroups/mailing lists back in the day were pretty adamant that the judges got it right.
I 'd have to say 1994 Olympic Ladies was a competition where I was happy with the results at the time, but looking back on it ...it REALLY does not hold up
2006 Euros was the most memorable (and not in a good way!) medal ceremony I have ever experienced. I was actually afraid for Bob Horen and everyone else involved. I wasn't crazy about the results, but Delobel & Schoenfelder did have a fall in the compulsory. Even with a fall, I think they were superior to Grushina & Goncharov, and Drobiazko & Vanagas certainly should have been higher.
Me, too. It was a masterpiece.
1987 NHK. It's absolutely criminal that Witt won over Harding and Ito.
2008 US Nationals: Men and Women.
2001/2002 GPF. Lots of arrange outcomes.
Takahashi. Evan also had two errors on both 3A's that were way overlooked by the technical panel. His slow skating, rushed positions, and complete lack of rhythm do not justify PCS scores anywhere near the other top men.
And Denkova-Staviski should have won that IMO. I still believe that this competition opened the way to N-K gold in torino06: if D/S had won this, N/K would have gone far behind in the next two years...
Fantastic, I saw it live and it was just amazing
I agree on Yukari higher in 04, Slutskaya gold in 2002 Olympics, some of Drobiazko&Vanagas (higher, please!).
For 2010 men, I've stopped thinking that Plushenko should have been OGM, and I'm trying to forget one of the most absurd competition of recent years (not only because of Evan-Evgeni, but also for Weir who should have been above Chan, and Daisuke and Steph, whom I loved and )
for me the most absurd competition ever was 2011 worlds women!!!
I will never forget how strange the judging was that day, there were several call that were questionable ad other skaters who received full credit for something that should have been downgraded.. and the PCS score for some skaters was simply ridiculous, I could continue with a lot off more things that just was outrageous including asada's downgrade o her 3A that diffidently didn't deserve that ad her low PCS and i know that her condition wasn't good and that she had focused on changing her technique this season but her performance was definitely better then what she got..
I have a bunch of issues with judging, but many of them have already been mentioned.
1996: I think that Chen Lu should have won instead of Michelle Kwan. Although I think that Michelle delivered a great performance, Chen Lu's program was perfect. Although Michelle Kwan had an extra triple toe and Chen had an extra double axel, Chen also had a harder combination (Triple flip double toe in comparison to triple toe triple toe)
But even if you give Kwan the technical edge, Chen Lu definitely deserved the artistic edge.
Even with Plushenko having "shaky landings" it's not like any real technical errors were involved. Certainly not too the point where judges would overlook the fact that in Vancouver he was the only one there he could do a 3A and a 4/3. He was the last skater. No one else came close to what he did on jumps there. Elvis Stojko said they killed figure skating but if they did anything was really kill any future of doing quads. Or if you don't think that is right they took away all motivation for learning them and then putting them in your programs. The worst thing was people saying Takahashi made a horrible terrible error in trying one. That was the worst. Not trying or doing a quad Olympics should be bad not doing one or attempting one. You can blame COP for this but the judges still have lots of power. There was no way the winner of 2010 should have been quadless.
Also, I just watched Yukari Nakano's 2008 FS, and she definitely should have gotten gold or silver. Kostner shouldn't have been near the podium with that shaky skate.
Well, Elvis Stojko was wrong. Ask Patrick Chan.
Nevermind that the top three men at Worlds this past season all had quads in their programs.
I'll give you the PCS, but both those 3A were rotated.
They were real "technical errors" though, because they deserved and received -GOEs from the judges. By the way, he wasn't the only one that could do them, just the only one that chose to/was able to. Lysacek, Takahashi, and Lambiel had landed them in previous competitions.
Your assertion that because the 2010 Olympic Champion didn't do a quad, no one else would be "motivated" to try one is ridiculous because this past world championships featured the most quad attempts that I can remember. In the short program, Chan landed one, Oda attemped one but stepped out, Gachinski landed one, Verner fell on an attempt, Joubert fell out of his attempt, Bradley landed his, VDP U/R + fell on his, Reynolds U/R + fell on his. In the FS, Chan landed TWO, Kozuka landed his, Gachinski landed his, Joubert landed his, Brezina landed TWO, Takahashi popped his, Fernandez landed TWO, Bradley landed one, his other one was U/R, Verner's was downgraded, VDP landed his, both of Reynolds' were U/R + fall. That's a whole lot of quads.
Oh yeah, that one too! (2004) D/S totally should have won, from what I remember (I can't remember the ODs all too well, if I even saw them but I know D/S's FD blew me away).
No. They weren't. The closest was the one in the sp, but I would've downgraded that, too.
The callers seemed to be much more lenient at the Olympics than the rest of the season.
Not universally, though. Takahashi got downgraded and received 'e's. Plushenko's lip went unnoticed and so did Evan's downgrades.
Who thinks that if the rules weren't changed for the 2010-2011 season you would have had all the quads that were done? The judges so messed up the 2010 Olympics so bad the types of changes that were done had to be done. How much longer would quads been done if failure meant no points at all? Which is what happened to Takahashi. Or you could do two quad triples like Plushenko and just win silver. If there had been no changes what Stojko said may have been accurate.
He did get some negative GOE but on the most flawed jump, the first 3A, there was actually positive GOE and I bet it was because it came after the only successfull 4/3 of the whole night.
I don't think previous competitions are relevent. Plushenko was the only one who did those jumps at the Olympics in 2010 in the same programs. And those judges there said it was worth silver.
Perhaps the results of the Ladies LP at the 2002 Olympics came out ok, but if you look at the actual ordinals...they are very questionable....IMO Sarah should have gotten all first places and MK and Irina should have basically split second and third.
I agree - I think all four disciplines' gold medals went to the wrong people. (Should've been Elvis, Nancy, M/D and T/D.)
Here is a clip of Evan's SP, albeit a poor quality one. How could you say it deserved a downgrade? Going by today's rules, the jump must be cheated by more than 1/2 of a turn to be downgraded. Under-rotated jumps (70% of BV) must be cheated between 1/4 and 1/2 of a rotation, and I don't see evidence for that here either. Can I get any third opinions?
Here is a clip of his second 3A from his 3A, the first one was much better.
Now going by today's rules, could maybe see a case for an under-rotation call, between 1/4 and 1/2 under-rotated, but definitely not a downgrade, which requires more than 1/2 of a revolution. Again, the quality of this video is quite poor, and nothing can be said with certainty.
Takahashi has a very noticeable flutz. Evan got ! for his triple flip. Not sure about Plush.
I don't know whether Evan's triple axels were downgrade-worthy, but it seems like the Olympic callers mostly decided not to downgrade landed jumps (except in a few cases like Rachael's triple flips). I guess they didn't want OGMs being decided on those kinds of close calls, which can be controversial (see the uproar over Mirai at 2010 US Nationals). But if you fell (like Takahashi did on his 4T attempt) the odds of being downgraded went way up.
Another example is Mao's triple axels. She got credit for all of them at the Olympics, but once she got to Worlds the callers got downgrade-happy again.
1) I cant believe you made me rewatch that dreadful program.
2) This doesn't make any sense? I'm guessing you meant the previous rules before the 2010/2011 season changes in one of your descriptions?? In any case, I'm only going by the rules that were used to judge that competition, where a jump need only be cheated by a quarter turn or more to have a downgrade by obe rotation in base value, accompanied by negative GOE in most cases. Even if you ignore the fact that each "axel" takes off BACKWARDS, there is still a turn on the landing of at least 1/4, and IMO a little more. I would have either called them as salchows (a tad extreme) or 3axel> which, under those rules would mean a reduction to a poor 2a under that system.
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