Most overhyped rivalries of all time

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    Excluding cheesefests which I dont keep track of the head to head matchups I can think of between Kwan and Slutskaya:

    1994 Junior Worlds- Kwan
    1995 Worlds- Kwan
    1995 Skate America- Kwan
    1996 Centennial on Ice- Slutskaya
    1996 Grand Prix final- Kwan
    1996 Worlds- Kwan
    1997 Grand Prix final- Kwan
    1997 Worlds- Kwan
    1998 Olympics- Kwan
    1998 Worlds- Kwan
    1998 Goodwill Games- Kwan
    2000 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2000 Worlds- Kwan
    2000 Skate Canada- Slutskaya
    2001 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2001 Worlds- Kwan
    2001 Goodwill Games- Slutskaya
    2001 Skate Canada- Slutskaya
    01-02 Grand Prix final- Slutskaya
    2002 Olympics- Slutskaya
    2002 Worlds- Slutskaya
    2004 Worlds- Kwan
    2005 Worlds- Slutskaya

    I am sure I am forgetting something along the way but based on the non cheesefests I remember it would be 13-10 Kwan. I would say that is definitely a rivalry. Especialy since Irina in fact won most of their meetings from 2000 onwards when she became a gold threat which is how she overcame an early 10-1 deficit to make it close in the end.

    If Irina had won the 2006 Olympics and 2006 Worlds there would be a real argument for Irina being the most successful skater of this era over Kwan (I didnt say neccessarily the best which can be different than the most successful of course, and I for one much prefer Kwan's skating to Irina's). If she had even won 1 of the 2000 or 2001 Worlds she was favored to it would even be very close between the two overall.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    One funny thing is Irina lost each of the 2000 Worlds, 2001 Worlds, 2002 Olympics, 2006 Olympics to someone who she was leading after the short program. However in everyone of those cases except the 2001 Worlds it was not her leading after the short either, it was Butyrskaya in 2000, Kwan in 2002, and Cohen in 2006. And in 2 of those cases of course the short program leader dropped all the way to 3rd.

    Another funny thing is 3 times in Irina's career she entered her final free skate as the whole difference maker to the entire event. 97 Worlds the scenario was if she was 1st in the free skate she would win silver, Tara would win gold even with only 3rd in the long, and Kwan would drop to bronze. If she were 3rd in the free skate like she was she would not medal, Tara would hang onto gold, and Kwan silver even with winning the long. And if she were 2nd in the free skate she would win bronze, Kwan would pass Tara for gold, and Tara would win silver. And of course at the 2000 Worlds and 2002 Olympics the winner could have been either here, the leader at that point, or the leader in the free skate depending how she fared and was placed.
     
  3. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    12,794
     
  4. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,253
    Slutskaya had to miss 2003 Worlds due to her mother's illness. Kwan finished way ahead of her the next year (3rd vs. 9th), but by then Slutskaya was ill.
     
  5. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,878
    I did too. I didn't particularly enjoy either of them (I found Kwan dull and slow, and Slutskaya sloppy) but both had their pluses and minuses and to me it could go either way quite easily.
     
  6. OliviaPug

    OliviaPug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Messages:
    2,259
    I take it you never saw them skate in person?

    Kwan was NOT slow (very, VERY deep in the ice, which somehow doesn't translate well on TV). Slutskaya was VERY dynamic.

    O-
     
  7. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,920
    :huh:
    IIRC, the deal in place was supposed to help B&K. Both Jean Senft and Yuri Balkov were caught/suspended for negotiating in favor of them winning the bronze. Once they
    watered down their OD from GPF that season and had mistakes in their first CD, it wasn't going to happen for them even if they beat A&P in the FD (which they did). Jean Senft gave them a ridiculously high ordinal in the FD, while giving A&P a ridiculously low one, in order to try and still give B&K the bronze. She was cited for personal/national bias, and then became a "whistleblower" on Balkov when she didn't get her own way.

    I will never understand how she was made into such a martyr.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2010
  8. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    You are rudeness knows no bounds.
    So what? After the 1993 world championships, six of the nine judges were suspended for scoring based on dancers' reputations rather than how they performed in the competition. All six came back to judging. Three of them made it to Lillehammer to judge at the 1994 Winter Games. To play dirty is not a news in FS. I know you like to pretend none of this stuff ever happened but it did. Everyone but you seems to know about it. Nowdays, with the current judging system it is easier than ever to cheat- a judge is never caught and therefore cannot be suspended. Safe play.
     
  9. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    Thank you. I am a little bored to reply to our internet commentator DL. Who sees dirt only when it comes from her unfavourites and damages her favourites.:drama:

    Probably because unlike Balkov she did not make an Olympic comeback. So, she is a "martyr". :lynch:
     
  10. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,907
    Once again, you're trying to rewrite history.

    The deal was to keep B&K from medalling at all by placing them 5th in the CD.

    Senft wasn't back judging at the Olympics because Dave Dore refused to send her to another international event after her suspension. She was reduced to judging Canadian Sectionals. After Dore became the VP of the ISU, his successors did send her to international events but only on a limited basis.
     
  11. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,431
    ITA! The fact that they tried to keep a comparatively friendly, respectful relationship made it bettter (IMO) because it made it easier to focus on their skating, rather than their personalities.
     
  12. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,920
    It may have been alleged by some that B&K were held down in the CD, but the deal for which Balkov and Senft were suspended was to put B&K on the podium. Balkov, was typically very favorable in his marking of B&K (he supported them in 2002 over FP&M) and wasn't one of the judges that was accused of being in the block trying to hold them down.
     
  13. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,907
    Balkov did then and continues to do whatever Piseev tells him to do.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    Bourne & Kraatz did not deserve a medal at the 98 Olympics anyway. They repeated a mistake on every pattern on the same step of their Golden Waltz and their OD was terrible and only placed 4th due to their reputation.
     
  15. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2002
    Messages:
    12,794
    I believe there was footage of Senft talking to Balkov on the phone? It seemed she was involved in the deal. This was why she was suspended, wasn't it?

    And why was she involved if the deal was to keep B&K from medalling?

    I didn't follow the closely and didn't understood why Senft was suspended if it was she who exposed the matter? And if she was involved in wrongdoing, wasn't it unwise for her to do so?
     
  16. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    That is certainly true as of late. After V&M, the Kerr's are my fave ice dance team!! :rollin:
     
  17. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    The problem was, Senft did everything on that tape I believe? On the tape specific placings were discussed and she did those placements didn't she? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that is the other main reason why she got suspended.

    IMHO, the placements were ridiculous given the reality of what occured on the ice. I recall her placements were out of line...even with the :skandal
     
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    I liked Jean Senft. I missed her judging tutorials she used to do on CBC. I think she got a raw deal in the whole taped conversation thing. I do believe she was trying to do got and got made an example of for it. I dont think she is perfect or devoid of bias by any means but I do think on the whole she was a good judge.

    The thing is I do think there was bloc judging in Nagano just based on the ordinal alignments which make it fairly obvious. However if Bourne & Kraatz really did lose the bronze by bloc judging, they IMO would have only received it in the first place due to protocal judging. So ultimately by whatever means the placements worked out fairly correct, atleast as far as the medals went. I believe the biggest victims of the bloc judging were probably a team like Punsalen & Swallow who I generally did not care for but hit their peak in 98, or even Drobiazko & Vanagas, or even a rusty Moniotte & Lavanchy who were clearly not at their best but still probably got hammered extra hard as they were given a message by their federation to retire (which they probably were doing anyway).
     
  19. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,907
    Except that they did those same steps in the Golden Waltz all season long and were only called for it at the Olympics. Which of course was the ideal set up to ensure they had an excuse to place them low enough that they had no possibility to stand on the podium no matter how well they did in the rest of the competition.
     
  20. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,907
    That's why she was taping the conversation - to get evidence of the deal against B&K.

    She was suspended for participating in the call in the first place, for not reporting this conversation at the time and holding onto the tape for 6 months.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    I did not see any of their Golden Waltzes before the Olympics. Only their OD and FD was televised in each event they were in and I didnt see them live this season. I agree they should have been called on it before the Olympics if that was the case. However come Worlds they didnt change how they did the step at all again.
     
  22. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    What I think is the real travesty was Dubova not knowing the footwork change had occured and not working with B&K to correct it for the Golden Waltz in time for the Oly's. Had they known, then IMHO they would have won the bronze having placed above A&P in the FD portion of that competition.
     
  23. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,890
    This is a dumb question, but 1998 was back in the day when 4 CD's were drawn. In that year: Silver Samba, Quickstep, Argentine Tango, Golden Waltz.

    Had B&K actually skated the Golden in any of their international events leading up to the Olympics? The GPF had no CD's at all, AFAIR.

    They skated Skate Canada and NHK, so does anyone know what CD's were used there?
     
  24. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    It was the Silver Samba at Skate Canada not sure about NHK
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,351
    I am pretty sure the Grand Prix final was the Golden Waltz though. And yes it is a shame Dubova had them doing a critical step in the dance she created incorrectly.
     
  26. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    Ironically, it was the Silver Samba at the GPF in Munich that year too.
     
  27. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    DL: :wall:
     
  28. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    It does not make any sense. If the deal was against B/K like you (and the only) claim, why was she holding onto the evidence for so long time? And why was she participating into the deal against her guys in the first place? You are manipulating with facts if they are not in favor for your preferences. But the truth is no matter how much you puff your judge was dirty and played dirty in order to give a medal to B/K that they didn't deserve.
     
  29. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    943
    I can't understand why you assume you are an appointed historian.:hat1:
     
  30. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2001
    Messages:
    7,594
    However, I wonder what the results would have been if B&K had skated the proper steps in their Golden Waltz. They would have deserved the bronze over A&P. A&P made a blatant mistake in their OD, so even if B&K had been in 4th after the CD's (placing 4th after GW and the Tango not 5th and then 4th respectfully as what happened), they might have edged A&P despite having a craptastic OD that year. IMHO, B&K's side by side steps were better than A&P's complete lack of any skating for about 35-45 seconds of their FD.

    IMHO, Jean Senft was a complete bonehead for not coming forward immediately. Holding onto evidence of wrongdoing is almost just as bad as actually doing what she said they were doing.