Most overhyped rivalries of all time

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Yes she is! :D Miki has respect from me. I believe she is still the only skater that has managed to beat both Mao and Yuna at a single event.
  2. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Kwan vs. Cohen -- True, Kwan was much better, especially competitively since Cohen never overcame her tendency to fall apart in the long program. However, Cohen's gorgeous flexibility (spins, spirals) certainly have had a great impact and in this aspect she was as good or better than Kwan. Although, Cohen's performances as a whole did not have the magic and transcendant quality that Kwan consistently brought to the ice. I think the more overhyped rivalry was Kwan vs. Lipinski, and to a degree, Kwan vs. Slutskaya (perhaps once or twice, IMHO, did Irina actually perform better than Kwan). Although Irina did improve and gained a lot of popular appeal toward the end of her career, Kwan was definitely the better overall skater. The real rivalry could have/ should have been Kwan vs. Bobek, as Nicole truly had tremendous talent, musicality, ability, audience appeal -- but alas, she lacked discipline and consistently strong coaching/ parental guidance.

    Eldredge vs. Stojko That was a strong rivalry. The judges tended to favor Elvis (seeming to be making up for the misplaced judging at '94 Olympics). During E and S rivalry, the sport was falling in love with the quad to the detriment of quality skaters like Eldredge. Actually Eldredge began practicing the quad very diligently and he often landed it cleanly in practice, but wasn't as successful in competition. Eldredge was more of a jumper early in his career, but he later became a well-rounded skater with solid, compelling performances. Elvis was certainly not better than Eldredge stylistically -- it was more often Elvis' consistent quads and love from the judges which helped Elvis trump Eldredge.

    Kerrigan vs. Harding Harding was actually much stronger technically, and she had the potential to continue to develop artistically. Kerrigan, described as having Kate Hepburn looks, and dressed in Vera Wang (and with good coaches) made an impact at '92 Olympics. Kerrigan was also lucky to be the third American on 1991 Worlds podium (after Midori Ito's crash into the boards). When TPTB would have anointed her in 1993, Kerrigan was not prepared, and thus allowed a young Oksana Baiul to sneak in for the World title, and make an impact that would later pay dividends. Little did Harding realize that by simply working hard and believing in herself, she would likely have risen above Kerrigan and the favoritism politics. In fact, IMO, it was the whack that in a strange way focused Kerrigan and made her stronger competitively. Kerrigan skated the best she'd ever skated at '94 Olympics. K vs H, definitely was a faux rivalry, based mainly on the "whack heard 'round the world."

    Sale/ Pelletier vs. Sikharudlidze/ Bereshnaya This was definitely a rivalry -- no hype. Yes, S/B were artistically exquisite, but in the end, S/P were stronger competitively and I think the rivalry was a good example of Russian vs. North American style skating. Hands down, S/ P has had the better (and of course, longer) professional career. At the 2002 Olympics, S/B could not shake their nerves -- Sale, with her strong back, had much better throw jumps with smooth, solid landings, while the nerves showed on Bereshnaya's jump landings. S/B had been gifted with their placement at the 1998 Olympics over the American pair of Ina/ Dungjen. In 2002, S/B were favored, this time to win, but again they failed to completely hold up under the pressure, while S/P rocked. Okay, yes, as they say, S/B had the more intricate long program, but there was Anton's stumble out of double axel and Elena's unsteady throw jump landings. IMO, S/P displayed more confidence -- they were strong competitors with appealing and clean programs (if not costumes) that definitely rivaled S/B.

    T/T vs. S/Z -- Agree, overhyped rivalry. T/T technically beautiful, but mostly boring. S/Z truthfully unrivaled from 2003 -2005, except for injuries, bad luck and the theory that Russian pairs skaters must win (especially at Olympics).

    Lysacek vs. Weir -- Lysacek, as Kurt Browning famously said, became a better skater because of Johnny Weir. Lysacek had a great coach, he worked hard, and he adopted some of Weir's moves and "theatrical flair" as mentioned in March 2010 Details article. Not to denigrate Lysacek's many accomplishments, but Weir is way more talented than Lysacek artistically and technically, just not competitively, and just not politically. Faux rivalry all the way. Even at Nats in January 2010, Weir skated much better than Lysacek in the short program, but was kept behind Lysacek. Weir also skated better at 2008 Nats than Lysacek (who I believe was dealing with injury issues). Of course judges scored Lysacek's mess of a long program higher than warranted, and so he got the win (after the faux tie).

    And, please, in 2005-2006, Johnny Weir was showing everyone the gorgeous athletic and artistic possibilities of male skating. Tim Goebel was still around as well, and Matt Savoie, who was a way better skater than Lysacek, was getting the short end of the stick, as usual. In 2005 (even though he lucked into winning bronze at Worlds), Lysacek was still learning mainly under Frank's associate, Ken Congemi. With Lysacek's "fluke" podium position at 2005 Worlds, Frank soon took over exclusively from Congemi.
    pat c and (deleted member) like this.
  3. let`s talk

    let`s talk Banned Member

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    Indeed.
  4. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, aftershocks, for your thoughtful, well reasoned analysis of each rivalry. :)
  5. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, I never thought about that, she did! I just wish she could start skating in competition like she does in her exhibitions, that would be wonderful.
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    So, I never said Sale & Pelletier didnt have skills. Vastly inferior is relative, relative to Elena and Anton their overall abilities were vastly inferior, and even to much greater degree relative to how they were perceived during the height of their propoganda push. They certainly werent an upgraded version of Gordeeva & Grinkov which is how judges and the North American media were treating them as for a couple years.

    As for no rivalry based on how the judges and media saw the two pairs there also was no rivalry the other way. The only way Sale & Pelletier the golden children were going to be allowed to lose other than SLC was to fall three times and Elena & Anton to skate cleanly. So even if you think the judges of those 2 seasons are correct and that they are the god and goddess of skating who should be allowed to miss jumps every competition and still win, then I would still be correct there was no rivalry based on the actual competitions that took place, to the other extreme. Either way there was no good rivalry between the two.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Why shouldnt Kwan vs Slutskaya and Kwan vs Lipinski be hailed as rivalries? Those skaters actually beat Kwan many times, so they should be considered rivals to her. And I do think they were legit rivals. Slutskaya in her prime was superior overall technically to Kwan (which not many are as Kwan is excellent and underrated technically), and while not that "artistic" her overall presentation which is different than just artistry was much improved and actually quite strong. And I cant think of any of the many wins Irina had over Michelle she didnt deserve other than the 2001-2002 Grand Prix final which was a total joke in the final round, but Irina did deservedly win the first 2 programs which gave her momentum into the 3rd. Tara technically was inferior quality wise in many ways but she had the edge in jump content over Kwan (and everyone else) and she was an even stronger competitor than Kwan during their short rivalry. There is no doubt Irina from 2000 onwards atleast, and Tara in her 2 top amateur seasons were major rivals to Kwan and her supremacy.

    It certainly makes far more sense to rate those skaters as rivals to Kwan than Cohen who never won a major title unlike Slutskaya or Lipinski, and who virtually never beat Kwan unlike Slutskaya and Lipinski.


    But didnt Elvis and the media complain he was undermarked and underappreciated especialy in artistic scores during this time? I never felt that way so much but that seemed to be the consensus at the time. Maybe had internet discussions been around then I would have gained a different perspective. Still even a quadless Elvis managed consistently beat even a clean Eldredge quite a few times, so based on that it is hard for me to see it as a rivalry, plus Todd only winning 1 head to head meeting out of probably about a dozen in the 9 year period Elvis won his 8 World and Olympic medals.

    Evan is probably less talented than Weir but he improved to the point in later years he clearly became the better skater. His spins and footwork in later years were far superior to Weir which already gave him a big technical edge. And his jumps while less textbook were more dynamic with sharper rotation, and he did much harder layouts to earn points. In PCS he began to outscore Weir by increasing margins since his programs were skated with alot more speed and command, and had much more intricate choreography and transitions. Do note I am not a Lysacek fan whatsoever, as anyone familiar with me here will atest to.

    While I understand what people like so much about Weir's skating, and I do think he was undermarked at times (eg- 2010 Olympics) he never fulfilled his early potential as a skater. More and more guys began passing him by from 2005 onwards since they improved much more than he did and flat out became better skaters than him- Lambiel, Joubert (well he was always ahead of Weir really), Buttle, later Lysacek and Takahashi, later Chan and possibly Oda, and on a good day Abbott and Verner (but Weir has a big consistency edge). Those guys all moved forward in their skating in different ways from 2005 onwards, while Weir stayed still or even went backwards at times. Even now it could be argued his peak was 2004-2005, though his best ever performances were possibly the 2010 Olympics. Weir just didnt have the technical difficulty with COP unfriendly jump layouts, no quads, and often lower level non jump elements to get the TES of these others if they skated well. And as lovely as his skating can be he couldnt get the PCS of these others if they skated well either due to his programs which often have virtually no transitions or chroeography (a big must of PCS as I am sure you know) At events like the 2010 Olympics where he skated lights out and so many others made mistakes he deserved better from the judges. However there isnt really anything he does in recent years that could push him above the other top skaters if they skate well even with fair judging, for all the reasons I stated. Either way for me he cant be considered a serious rival to a guy who is now a World and Olympic Champion and who has owned him for the last 4-5 years competitively speaking, as much as I am not found of Evan.

    The 2008 Nationals is the only time Evan beat Weir that I can even see an argument for Weir deserving to have beaten Evan. Weir did finish above Evan in 3 other events after the 2005 Worlds- 2006 Nationals, 2008 Skate America, and I think 2007 Cup of China. So to his credit he did still have some times placing over Evan despite Evan's far greater run of overall success during this period. Evan came out on top at 2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, 2006 Worlds, 2007 Nationals, 2007 Worlds, 07-08 Grand Prix final, the controversial 2008 Nationals, 2009 Nationals, 2009-2010 Grand Prix final, 2010 Nationals, and 2010 Olympics. That makes it 11-3 for Evan since Evan's coming out party at the 2005 Worlds but would be 10-4 had Weir won Nationals in 2008.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  8. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    I&D skated horrendously in the LP in Nagano missing both sets of SBS jumps and were slow as molasses. They not only lost all nine ordinals to both B&S and W&S but they also barely finished fourth ahead of Elstova and Bushikov and Shen and Zhao. :huh:
  9. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    You really can't just say that Weir was a better skater and that's that about Lysacek vs. Weird. Maybe he was. Maybe he was more artistic (yes, probably) or more naturally talented (also yes) but Lysacek was a harder worker and after 2006 clearly outclassed Weird in nearly every competition. From 2007 onwards it wasn't even a competition; Lysacek had much more COP-friendly programs, better footwork, better spins, and did what he had to do to legitimately beat Weir time and time again.
  10. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Bourne & Kraatz vs Grishuk & Platov :lol: This rivalry was basically invented by B&K and the NA media. They never even came close to beating G&P in competition. By the time B&K had even won a world bronze medal, G&P were already reigning Olympic and multiple World champs.

    Nonetheless, there was skandal when G&P beat B&K in the OD at 98 GPF with a fall, even though their jive OD was ridiculously more complex and faster. And then apparently one of the networks made some side by side comparison of their CDs in Nagano where Grishuk made a slight misstep, implying that B&K should have beaten them, even though they were down in 5th. (A comparison with K&O or A&P would have been understandable).

    At least it let to Pasha's epic snarking that she could have learned the Riverdance choreo in 5 minutes. :D
  11. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    I like your analysis, aftershocks! And I would consider Kwan v Slutskaia a much bigger rivalry than Kwan v Cohen--the latter is more of Cohen as a lady-in-waiting to Kwan.

    I also agree on S/P vs B/S--it came down to style and emphasis in training (and also nerves. I still wonder what Bereznaia could have done without being browbeaten by her first partner and then taking the skate blade to the head, which could rattle ANYONE for life.)
  12. Winnipeg

    Winnipeg New Member

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    This is the one I immediately thought of - Debi/Katarina.

    Same with Sumners and Witt in 84.

    There was something about Katarina's competitiveness which drew the media. I still remember the videos of her 'staring down Roslyn back in 84 during an Olympic practice..............
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai Nagasu vs. Caroline Zhang. They were both really good 13 year olds and then puberty sets in and Caroline's jumps went from bad to worse. I guess Mirai had issues for that one season when she grew so much, but she was very strong in 07-08 right before that, and then rebounded convincingly in 09-10. The same cannot be said for Caroline, at least not yet.
  14. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Perhaps there was some talk about a rivalry,but I honestly don't remember these rivalry being discussed by anyone other than diehard fans so I don't consider these really overhyped rivalries.

    In other cases, you used winning stats to determine whether a rivalry existed (like Todd vs. Elvis), but in the case of 2001-02 pairs, we use basic skills, politics and propaganda? Just because we don't like the results we see? In that case, I think Elvis was overhyped because he was a one-trick pony who had vastly inferior skills except for his ability to land a quad and who had the backing of a major skating federation (Can). (I am not saying he was, but if we allow your S&P argumnt, then we must accept all similar arguments.) Oh, and Nancy vs. Bauil being nonsense as they could't skate like Sato. :p
  15. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Agree with your points about G/P being superior than B/K; however B/K did get a few ordinals off of G/P at the 1997 Worlds. The ordinals were mixed between K/O, G/P, and B/K. That one could've flipped in any teams favor due to Pasha slipping on her skirt which caused them to have a small bobble and then they finished after their music as well.
  16. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    I think aftershocks meant that he/she felt that I/D should've been ahead of B/S after the SP in Nagano.
  17. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Active Member

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    Agree with this. Todd never really got the credit he should have for his spins. Although both Stojko and Eldredge had somewhat blah presentation, I thought Todd actually offered a little bit more in this department as well despite his obsession for battlefield or movie soundtrack music.. Stojko was all about the quad and everything else kinda just was "there"..
  18. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    - :lol: still remember CBS’s bit on Bourne/Kraatz. I remember how Dubova basically told them to tell the world thru American media, that they were ready to fight for Olympic gold, and this was their year!

    Nevertheless it was strange why they never made a mention of Bourne/Kraatz's errors considering he omitted several steps during the waltz. But IIRC I think it was CBC that accurately compared it to K/O’s waltz which should be the ONLY CD worth comparing it too. (A/P’s technique at the time was too spotty for my taste.)

    - judgejudy,why is T/M and S/Z an overhyped rivalry...objectively speaking i don't think so at least to the judges eyes. Remember 2004 worlds was the last competition that both pairs went head to head (other than at the Olympics). When both teams skated clean in the LP (except for the bobble in s/z’s final lift) every judge put S/Z first. Meaning the judges would have willingly given them their 3rd world title if they had not made errors in the short. And then the judges rewarded them with a WR at 2004 GPF the following season. When both teams were healthy and competing against one another the results suggested something more like a rivalry. It was nothing like S/P’s short and punctuated rise in late 2000 leading up to the Olympics.

    -Kwan vs. Slutskaya—sorry, can't think of one single thing other than spins that Slutskaya was better than Kwan at. And I’m not even a Kwaniac. It was ridiculous that Slutskaya was labeled a chief rival of Kwan as early as 2000, after she told the media of her transformation, how angry she was with her weight + missing 99 world team etc….. As if her skating really improved that much after that :rolleyes: She could thank the lovely Butyrskaya for her hot mess of nerves, that the Federation chose not to support her. Shame since she was far superior to Slutskaya. I think Kwan would have done much better under COP when competing against Slutskaya…the quality of Kwan’s skating would have easily given her more of a cushion should she make small errors, just like the case with Yuna Kim. 2001 GPF and 2002 worlds LP perhaps?

    - and then Goebel vs. Plushenko in SLC. Scotty completely ignored Goebel’s non-existent artistry and thought he could overtake Yagudin for the LP win. ((cringe))
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well like I said either way B&S vs S&P wasnt a good rivalry. From my perspective and the perspective of many other serious skating fans B&S were a whole other league than S&P who were largely a myth. Yet on the other side competitively speaking S&P always beat B&S in the 2000-2001 and 2001-2002 seasons and in pro competitions for many years later, and were given the wins even when they missed jumps and made other mistakes. So depending your perspective it is either B&S >>> S&P or S&P >>> B&S but either way it wasnt a good rivalry of any kind.

    And I agree on Elvis's flaws. However I think his timing was perfect and that is why he dominated. Todd just wasnt quite good enough, Candelero and Zagorodniuk were definitely not good enough, and Kulik and Urmanov who were good enough to beat him were crazy inconsistent and hardly ever skated cleanly. If he had been born a bit earlier or a bit later he would have been overshadowed by Browning/Petrenko or Plushenko/Yagudin his whole career but he came in at the perfect time to dominate mens skating. Of course if others want to feel Todd should have been beating Elvis more often and was held back by Elvis being overscored by all means feel that way too. I was never a fan of Elvis's skating anyway, though I greatly respected his toughness and character.

    And Baiul is the most overrated female skater in history by a long ways IMO, while Sato and Chen were both underrated around that time. So you wont get any argument from me there either.
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    You are apparently trying to argue S/Z were far superior so in fact you are only adding to the argument it was an overhyped non rivalry (rivalries are people that are closely matched) which you supposably are trying to argue against. :huh: Based on what you are saying why are you even arguing my stance it was an overhyped rivalry.

    I already explained why it was an overhyped rivalry from my own perspective. Irregardless of opinions of which pair was better both teams were alternately injured and off competition the final 2 seasons of Totmianina & Marinin's career in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006. So basically what would have been a 4 year rivalry was only a 2 year one. On top of that there are hardly any competitions both turned in back to back great performances vs each other.


    Jumps (bigger), jump combinations, speed, at times Irina's footwork was as good or better (though both were excellent), at times command of the ice.

    Maria doesnt do a single thing better than Michelle either technically or artistically and is the most inconsistent skater ever. Irina at her best is probably overall technically superior to Michelle, and she is atleast more consistent than Maria. It would have been crazy for the Russian federation to try and back Maria as their #1 to go up against Michelle. She would have had far less head to head success vs Michelle than Irina did. Maria didnt have the ability to win a Major title other than by fluke- like the 99 Worlds was sort of with Kwan not skating well and nobody else there. It seems Irina isnt liked by some people in this thread and that is fine. She isnt my favorite either. However she did score quite a few wins over Michelle, and other than the 2002 Grand Prix final I cant think of any other one that was controversial.

    If Maria was the better skater the Russian federation would have backed her over Irina. They are not stupid. And how is Maria the better skater anyway. Technically she isnt even in the same league as Irina in anything- jumps, jump combinations, spins, footwork, speed and power, even spirals Irina is better in. And it is not like she is this grand artist on blades either with her stiff knees, jerky motions, lack of emotion or expression, etc...and in fact her overall presentation (different than just artistry) is most times worse than Irina's.


    Yeah as the 2005 Worlds showed. :p
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Again, Kwan was clearly in decline by 2005 Worlds, not close to her physical best while Irina skated the most technically demanding skate of her career. Not only that, but didn't the 2006 OGM place 9th in those Worlds? One competition doesn't really prove anything. It's just unfortunate that Kwan never competed COP before or after those Worlds. She still managed to place third in the SP and LP despite having arguably the worst Worlds performance of her career there and level one elements she could have altered with more experience. At least 1997 had a great LP and 1999 had her doing 6 triples in the LP.

    I think the 2008-2010 COP is a lot more friendly to Kwan's style of skating than the 2005-2007 was. That said, I don't think Kwan would've been able to match the GOE from Slute's jumps which I think is where Yu Na gets most of her cushion.
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, but I have never heard anyone suggest until now Kwan would have actually done even "better" under COP and I was responding to someone who said that which I found funny. The most anyone would try to argue until now is maybe she would have done just as well, most who argue in her defense on COP though say not quite as well but still extremely well (winning some major events). There is no way I actually see her doing better under COP than 6.0 though, especialy vs skaters like Slutskaya, Cohen , and Arakawa who are very well suited to COP, that doesnt mean she still wouldnt been able to beat them, but she certainly wouldnt have been even more dominant against them under COP in her prime. She won 5 World titles under the 6.0 system, she would not have improved on that under COP. If anything she would have had more challenges from certain skaters under COP than 6.0. For one thing Irina would have had a lead in points over Kwan after the short program at some events which she didnt get under 6.0 even if she finished ahead in the short.

    And Kwan did have the worst performance of her career at the 2005 Worlds. 1997 Nationals, 2001 Skate Canada, 2002 Masters, and some others were worse. If you want to look at someone who had an awful competition at the 2005 Worlds look at Shizuka. True though that Kwan's long was flawed and a one of her worst actual programs ever (a generic and lacking choreography Bolero which was amazingly choreographed by Dean) and was still 3rd, but her short was clean and quite good and still placed 3rd behind flawed Slutskaya and Cohen. So there are different ways to look at it. Basically her off program she was 3rd but light years behind in points, her very good one she was still 3rd behind off programs of the other two. And who knows how easy the higher level spins would have been for Kwan as far as what future improvements she would have/could have made under COP. She never really liked the bendy spins with lots of changes which are what are required under the rules for the higher levels. That is something we can only speculate on.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your main points. I don't think Kwan could have done better with COP than she did with 6.0...maybe Nagano being the exception. However, if Nagano was done under the COP then the playing field may have been drastically different by the time Nagano happened.

    I said worst Worlds performance, not worst performance ever. You're right about the SP, and I think she was undermarked there. I do think skating in the the previous group to Cohen and Slute hurt her in PCS, and her clean SP wasn't as powerful as Nationals as she had to rush some of her elements to make up for longer spins and to keep up with the music, and she was still behind the music. Also, there's no denying that Cohen and Slute are better spinners and had an advantage on Kwan in that respect in a COP where it high levels were highly dependent on flexible positions.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The 2005 Worlds were also like a coronation for Slutskaya. She had the sentimental story, had won every event that season, was on her home ice. The short program made it clear she was going to be given the gold even if she did not deserve it (she did not deserve to win the short IMO). Thankfully she skated lights out enough in the long to leave no doubt to her victory, and avoiding a potential scandal of sorts. I would have had the short program: 1. Kostner (give her the edge because of her triple-triple and the extra points), 2. Kwan, 3. Cohen (smaller mistakes), 4. Slutskaya, but the judges had those as the top 4 in reverse order. It almost gave the impression of a somewhat pre determined event, but the long programs atleast justified the final placings.

    I did not like Slutskaya's spins under COP that much. She just Biellmanned everything and her Biellmans were never that great, they were only impressive before since few women back then did them and she could do that one combination on both feet. I prefered them under 6.0 actually, where she did a really fast and strong layback and some other nice spins without all the mediocre Biellmanns added on.

    I always liked Kwan's spins but under the rules she would have had to change them to get high levels under COP and unfortunately we never got to see how she would have done with that.

    Actually I forgot the early days and her rivalry with Lipinski. That might be the one case Kwan does even better under COP than 6.0. Hughes would also have a hard time managing her success or winning the 2002 Olympics under COP, but then again we dont know what adjustments she might have made (or Tara for that matter).
  25. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Actually no i did not post my opinion to which team was superior to the other, but at least trying to do so objectively. I was mentioning the fact that the 2 yr rivalry from 2002-2004 did exist to the judges, based purely on results and placements. So basically you are saying it was an overhyped rivalry only because it lasted for the first 2 seasons? :confused:
    Bigger jumps yes, but with little rideout, speed coming out. Also Slutskaya used tons of time setting up for jumps. Jump combos-Irina mostly underrotated her attempted 3+3's. Speed- both skaters evenly matched. Footwork- ok i'll give Slutskaya a slight edge on that. Command of the ice-..... What i meant to say with Kwan was she would probably fared better in COP up until 2003, when her technical abilities started waning. Why not? GOE's hello...
    No if Maria was the more consistent skater she would have gotten more backing. She was a true artist, and when competing against the likes of Kwan, Cohen, they needed that more than anything. Understandable that Slutskaya got more support since she actually landed more triples than Maria later in her career.
  26. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    ] So lets say, from 1998-2002, you don't think Kwan would have done better under COP? Look at the ladies right now. Just because Mao does two 3Axels doesn't mean she'll win. The underrotated 3+3's that were done by some of the ladies during 2000-2002 would have hurt them already. Re Kwan I'm guessing she would score higher GOE's on jumps, spirals, and for spins maybe second or third considering judges love looking at the edge these days.
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I just dont think it was a very good rivalry. It was supposed to last to 2006 but didnt for the reasons I said. It was basically cut off halfway through the Olympic quad due to the circumstances which already detracts a great deal from it. Rivalries that last only 2 seasons usually atleast end in the Olympic season. And there were few if any memorable confrontations when both teams skated great in both programs. Mostly Totmianina & Marinin won through their superior consistency when they did, they virtually always skated cleanly so when Shen & Zhou made any mistakes they were in trouble.


    You are already admiting that Irina had a potential edge on Kwan on more than just spins which was your initial comment. And the quality of Kwan's completed jumps and spins hadnt diminished any by 2005, so the GOEs she got at those Worlds are fairly reflective of what she would usually get. What had diminished alot was her ability to do as many triples, her consistency in the jumps, her ability to complex choreography, and her being unprepared for COP at the 2005 Worlds.


    Maria a true artist? To each their own. To me she was like a clumsy stork on ice. She landed many of her jumps with this big whip, she was stiff and not at all elegant or smooth. When you watch Kwan or Cohen you talk about how beautiful and elegant they look. When you look at Maria at times she looks very nice and artistic in her own way I guess with a maturity, but mostly it looks like hard work, stiff, jerky, and even clumsy at times. I actually dont think Maria was a particularly talented skater at all and she was a huge overachiever to achieve what she did in the sport.

    Do you really think Maria would have ever been any threat to Kwan even as the Russian #1. She only beat Kwan 2 times their whole careers, one of them was at Centennial on Ice when Kwan had the favor and fell in the short and landed 4 triples in the long (same # of Maria). The other was of course the 99 Worlds. And she had no chance against Kwan if Kwan skated cleanly.

    And Maria was not always as inconsistent as people make her out to be. In the 95-96, 96-97, and 97-98 seasons she was atleast as consistent as Irina or even moreso. Irina was still being backed as the Russian #1 and regularly beating Maria even when she made more mistakes and didnt land more triples than Maria. The Russian federation obviously always felt she was the more talented skater with more potential.
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    These are the significant events Kwan was in from 1998 to 2002:

    1998 Nationals- won

    1998 Olympics- this is the one event she might have done better under COP. I would have to analyze this closer though and what the base scores for Tara and Kwan were. One thing to remember though is unlike Hughes, Tara did not underrotate her jumps.

    1998 Worlds- won

    1999 Nationals- won

    1999 Worlds- she definitely would not have beaten Maria here under any scoring system. In fact her short program would have been alot worse than 4th under COP. A fall on a double axel, a very shaky combination that would require -1 or -2 in GOE from the judges, a triple toe solo jump, a weak layback. I am not sure she would have won any medal at these Worlds under COP so in fact 6.0 probably helped her win silver here.

    2000 Nationals- She probably still wins under COP even with her fall in the short

    2000 Grand Prix final- Irina would have clearly beaten her with the last numbers both skated anyway.

    2000 Worlds- Maria skated the best short program of her life and might have actually had more cushion over both Irina and Michelle and skated a better long under COP. Otherwise the results are the same probably.

    2001 Grand Prix final- no change that I see. Neither skated great but Irina did a better better in each round.

    2001 Nationals- Kwan won

    2001 Worlds- If Kwan's triple lutz combination in the short was deemed two footed by some of the judges, Irina actually might have taken a big lead after the short and it might have been hard for Kwan to win. Irina's triple-triple in the long was probably underrotated but if she had enough of a lead she probably wouldnt even try it. A triple toe-triple it not a big points collector under COP either. This is another event Kwan might have done worse at under COP.

    2002 Grand Prix final- Kwan should have won here anyway. Since the final round made it clear this was a cheating panel prepared to block judge anyway probably no difference.

    2002 Nationals- Kwan won

    2002 Olympics- Well FSU did a game on the 2002 Olympics short program and even though this is a strongly pro-Kwan forum Kwan ended up 5th in the short, 8 points behind Irina, and 4 points behind 2nd place Suguri I think it was. Draw your own conclusions.

    2002 Worlds- Irina would still win. She would have a huge lead after the short as she just killed the short here, and Kwan missed her combo. There longs wouldnt even score that differently probably, nothing that would make up the short program deficit.


    So to answer your question no. The only benefit is Kwan might have won the 98 Olympics. Kwan won 3 World titles and 5 National titles from 1998-2002, so it seems silly to suggest that she would have done "better" when she was winning almost everything important already.
  29. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    That makes sense. To be honest this was probably the only time I thought Slutskaya was robbed...and for Olympic gold- Kwan's underrotated 3flip here should have given Slutskaya the lead after the SP and with the LP's as it was skated, the gold.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I actually am not sure who should have been 2nd in the LP though- Kwan or Slutskaya. I go back and forth on that. I agree Slutskaya should have won the short clearly. Hughes didnt deserve even 4th in the short so never should have been in the running for gold. Under COP if Hughes skating was the same she wouldnt have even medaled. Her triple-triples in the LP would have been downgraded.
  31. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Let me suggest that COP would have helped Miss Michelle when she needed it most. Consider this ………

    SHORT PROGRAM )…….. Skater A does much better than Skater B.
    FREE SKATE ) …...……… Skater B does just slightly better than Skater A.

    Under 6.0, Skater B ( Tara ) wins the gold.
    Under COP, Skater A ( Michelle ) wins the gold.
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    But if Michelle wins the 98 Olympic Gold does she continue onwards and became the legend and the greatest skater ever to some as she is now? There are some who believe she would have turned pro after the 98 season had she won in Nagano. There are others who believe she would have gone a year or two more after Nagano. There are others who believe she would have gone to SLC. There seems to be almost nobody who believes she would have gone beyond SLC if she were an Olympic Champion though so things like her 9 National titles wouldnt have happened, and she would be down to 4, 3, 2 World titles, maybe even 1 if she bypassed the 98 Worlds like Oly winner Tara (though I doubt Michelle would have done this).

    In the big picture of her legacy it might be even better she didnt win the 98 Olympic Gold, although for her own personal satisfaction who knows.
  33. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Slutskaya should have had the lead after the SP, but I don't think she was robbed of the gold. Since Kwan has a history of her best skates when she has to come from behind (usually, a great FS when she was behind after the SP, or -- in '05 -- a good SP when her QR sucked) and Slutskaya has her best FS when she is ahead of the SP, I think the chances that the LPs would have stayed the same are not good.

    Also, I doubt that CoP would have affected these "mindsets".
  34. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    I remember reading multiple figure skating books written before the 1998 olympics which stated that michelle even in 1996 was speaking to the press of intending to stay to 2006. however the same was said of tara (not to mention plans of tara eventually planning to do quads in competition), of course as we know tara bowed out after olympic gold in 1998 so whatever kids and their coaches boast to the press about early on isn't exactly reliable in the long run..so who really knows how long Michelle would've stayed had she won the gold in 98.
  35. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Please do not besmirch Dean's talent as a choreographer by attributing the Bolero that we saw at Nationals and Worlds to him. Dean's too talented to have come up with that snoozefest version.
  36. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    I take it you haven't seen the Duschenay's WSS?

    Even the most brilliant of choreographers can lay an egg. Although, I'm sure Bolero was better when he first choreographed it.
  37. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    You really don't think Irina's jumps were better than Michelle's? Irina's jumps had height, power and distance. Michelle's jumps were nice, but no one would label them as powerful. Don't forget also Irina's one foot straight line step sequence in her SP down the length of the rink. Pretty amazing I thought. Throw in flexibility also as an area where Irina triumped over Michelle's. I enjoyed watching MK very much, but to say that Irina was only better than Michelle's at spins is silly.
  38. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    But the Bolero at Worlds was an egg that had been left outside to bake for at least 3 months under the hot sun :lol:. Seriously, does anyone think Dean came up with a program that was just stroke, sroke, jump and repeat? C'mon. Take a look at the debut of Bolero at the Cheesefest several months prior to Worlds. Now that was the version that Dean had a hand in. By the time Worlds rolled around, the program had been cut, chopped and rearranged to make it fit COP. I think Nicolai had a large hand in it. I absolutely hated the marching back-n-forth motion that Michelle did at the start of the program. Why did she drop the flirtatious and fun opening that she did at the Cheesefest?

    ETA: I only wish Michelle had been able to end her eligible career on a high note. She had many great programs during her reign, but unfortunately that Bolero crap will always be on my mind. To paraphrase something Dick Button used to say, "What you do last is what the judges [audience/fan] remember first".
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't Think that 2005 Worlds is what most people automatically think of when they think of Kwan's career.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    To Kwan's credit she is probably the only skater who could skate a program as terrible and empty as the Bolero program ended up by Worlds and do it with enough style and certain something to still get mid 7s on average in PCS. And I also liked it so much better at the Cheesefest, it is too bad it was apparently stripped down to nothing almost by Worlds.