Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by skatingpj, Apr 24, 2011.
Oh lol whoops
Is Russian skating that bad that they only get one entry?
I agree that it's Chan's to lose. I just happen to think he's going to lose. JMHO.
No, it was just a fluke.
Plushenko and Borodulin were the entries to Worlds 2010. Plushenko withdrew and Voronov was sent instead.
But Borodulin's blade broke during the SP, and had to quit. That fluke left Voronov as the sole Russian skater. He only got 14th. If Borodulin competed and got the same as the Olympics (13th, 9th if we take away the Olympians that didn't compete, but either/or) Russia would have two spots.
Chan's performance at Canadians was once-in-a-lifetime perfection, but I don't see that as having any relation to how he will perform at worlds. He can certainly do well enough at Worlds to win, but expecting him, or anyone, to be able to achieve something as amazing as what he did at Canadians is just not realistic.
I'm rooting for Brian Joubert and I think he seems more settled right now, which is important because his technique was never really the issue. He's shown a lot of perseverance this year so I hope it pays off for him. Having said that, I do think it's Chan's to lose, regardless of how well he skates. - OK
I second this although I remain slightly more optimistic.
I doubt Chan will skate as flawlessly as he did at Canadians. Oda, if he skates well, can match Patrick jump for jump. Tomas Verner could be a dark horse.
Quad or no quad, no one can afford to hold back if they expect to make the podium.
It/s my mantra and I/m sticking to it. Last one standing wins!
If every single skater were to skate cleanly, Patrick would win, far and above, because of his mastery of COP. There is not a single aspect of his skating in which he is lacking, and he is superior to almost every one in almost every aspect. Takahashi outperforms him on performance and execution, but in my opinion, that is the only area in which he is clearly ahead. If a Patrick with no quad the last couple of years won silver, a Patrick with three quads should be unbeatable.
Chan's performance at Nationals was a once in a lifetime type of skate. That said, I feel he is the man to beat. The field is so deep, it's going to make for an exciting competition.
I think Chan's main competition will be the reigning champ Takahashi and his countryman Kozuka. I don't believe Oda has the artistry in his skating to challenge Chan. I don't see any of the European or US men challenging him, quad or no quad.
If the Grand Prix season was any indication, the judges are willing to give the win to Chan even with flawed performances. At the Canadian nationals he proved that he CAN skate two clean performances, which raises his stock even more. I think this is Chan's world title to lose. It will take two clean and high quality performances from Takahashi and/or Kozuka, combined with at least three falls on jumps by Chan (in the same program or in SP & LP combined).
Or possibly, Chan's nationals performances were the beginning of a long string of excellent performances.
Interesting to see a skater "written off" as one-time-wonder when his difficulty and execution have been getting better and better. Kostner, Czisny, Oda, Kozuka.........
In essence, it will be a competition for 2nd and 3rd. I really don't like that 1st is given. Nothing against Chan's skating, he is pretty darn good. But, as a relatively new in-depth follower of skating has there ever been a male skater given a 3+ fall leniency by the judges? I know COP has changed things, but still...
LOL re Chan's "meal" analogy. Japan Worlds was supposed to be his "meal" ticket to the top, I suppose, and it was "taken away right under his nose." , Chan might also have been favored for 2009 World Championship gold in LA, if not for his ill-advised smackdown with veteran Joubert, and missteps in his lp -- also Lysacek went clean with both programs on U.S. ice that year. Although, I thought Chan should have been first in the sp there, I think the judges were sending him a message -- don't pile on Joubert; too much pompous mouthing off does not win you fans or influence judges. (IMO, it was completely misguided of Chan to make gratuitous statements about Weir wearing a headdress of roses in the kiss n' cry at the 2010 Olympics.)
As to who will "man up" in Moscow, as everyone says, the field is deep, and it remains to be seen who will be the man up on top of the podium. OK
Certainly, Chan skated lights out at Canadian Nationals, and its pretty cool to see anyone effectively master quads -- not so cool to see a skater fall repeatedly in a comp, and for the most part, have that overlooked by the judges. Chan knew he had better deliver the goods after being gifted during the GP season. Still, he must feel pretty comfortable knowing that the judges will give him lots of leeway if/ when he makes mistakes, which they also did at the 2010 Olympics.
No mystery that Chan is favored by the judges in any case, and that if he skates clean and lands quads, he's the odds-on favorite to win. But I prefer to see a battle, excitement, and scoring that does not make it a walk-in-the-park and a meal for the favored Canadian son, or should I say "tiger?" OK
Personally, I favor Dai Takahashi (champion with heart, soul and a bit of magic when he's on) and I also enjoy watching Verner (love the way he moves; he's cheeky cool with charisma to burn) and Kosuka (interesting skater with all the goods). OK I'm in complete agreement with centerpt1's assessment:
Must add that if Ryan Bradley does what he can do, his programs are show-stoppers. He's a good guy with heart, charisma, something to prove and the jumps are in his arsenal. He's so much fun to watch too. Hoping Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush soak up the experience, stay within themselves and perform the way they can, which would mean they will have a great showing. Will also be interesting to see how Kevin Reynolds performs in taking the place of Shawn Sawyer (who due to the Worlds delay, made the choice to go pro, since he had an offer from SOI).
According to the judges and most people here it looks like they just have to fax Chan the World title ... He's so so "Mr. Perfect" ... but why can't he, "perfect" like he is, just make his programs look alive??? It has been mentioned before by other posters, his skating leaves me totally indifferent as well. He looks so cold, snobbish. No heart, no soul, not the slightest bit of charisma. Yes, he may win the World title this year, but I guess it will take a long time to conquer the hearts of international audiences, if at all.
Well different strokes I guess. I, and many other FSUers I know are completely bowled over by Chan's performances. I've seen him skate clean live several times and been screaming my lungs out and on my feet every time. I was in the arena for his LP at Canadians this year and it was absolutely heart-stopping. His performances cold - I've never found them so.
Chan is becoming consistent with the 4T - without counting, I'd venture to guess that he has landed the most quads out of all the men this season. And, his consistency with the quad means it hurts less if he misses the 3A.
I think this Worlds is Patrick's to lose but am a bit concerned that he peaked too soon, at Nationals. I think the SP will be the key. It is possible that he could miss both the quad and 3A, which would bury him down in the standings.
I'm also concerned that he might be too focused on winning rather than on skating well.
That said, Patrick appears to be developing extremely strong competitive nerves.
As I recall, Jeffrey Buttle, at 2005 Worlds was given 2 fall leniency by judges in winning the silver medal.
ITA! No charisma, and no innate musicality, but lots of bravado and hubris. I do give Chan props for developing quads and landing them so far fairly consistently, especially at his National Championships. I reviewed his lp performance there -- his blade work and ice coverage are superb, and his jumps were on. However, although I could admire his technical brilliance, I did not feel any emotion from Chan, except his determination to move purposefully from one element to the next.
To each his own. Perhaps Chan's marvelous blade work, speed and ice coverage bowl you over so much, you are unable to discern his lack of a true connection with the music and his absence of an emotional connection with the audience. I suppose by simply closing his eyes and extending his arms in his opening move, and at a few other points in his program, he and his fans feel that makes him artistic. It doesn't! However, in the minds of the judges, perhaps true artistry does not trump technical brilliance, and apparently, technical brilliance can mask the lack of heart and soul.
Excerpts from the article:
Hopefully, the rest of the deep men’s field will step up and have something to say about Chan’s plan to “dominate Worlds for years to come.” There’s nothing wrong with believing in oneself, setting a goal, and being determined to be the best, but what’s up with that snotty, “club” attitude.
Perhaps Chan gained this sense of confidence during the GP season, when the judges “backed him up.” If I were Chan, I’d be careful of channeling Tiger Woods, especially in matters of the heart. I’d try being more like Derek Jeter: a humble, consummate winner, and a sportsman who knows how to speak to the media, and how to perform on the field under pressure.
No. A man should be able to do a 3A, especially nowadays. Hello, it's a required element in the SP. This is why I have little respect for Chan - the 3A is a jump that any self-respecting man at the international level should be able to do consistently.
There have been a multitude of elite skaters who have had problems with the 3A, does that mean you have" little respect "..........for skaters such as Lambiel who also had problems with that particular jump, but managed to squeak out an illustrious amateur skating career?
I suspect that the "little respect" for not being consistent on the 3A only applies to Chan.
I LOVE Patrick Chan's skating. It totally moves me. Recently, his are the only programs that I watch over and over again. I've been following figure skating for a long time and have had many favorite male skaters, starting with Toller Cranston. I am in awe of Chan's abilities and he has become one of my favorite all time skaters. I'm rooting for him!
Patrick's perhaps the most likely to make the podium, but he's not a lock for gold, especially with Dice-K in the mix. It will be down to which man can best conquer his nerves. The one I would prefer to win is Tomas Verner. Except for Tomas, I'd like the Japanese men to get the medals this time. I usually root for the US men but they are in a state of transition this year and I will be glad if they can just keep spots for next year.
MTE. I'm tired of people saying that Chan has no artistry or soul like it's a fact. There are plenty who enjoy the artistic side of his skating in addition to his superb technical skills.
This. The 3A is never going to be a strong jump for Chan, but there are so many others who struggle just as much or more. While it's certainly an important element, it's not everything (and to the person who said it's a required SP element, it isn't - only a 2A is).
The 3A is not a required element in the SP. The required jumps are:
I don't really think that Chan is the man to beat. He is one of the favorites, but with the Japanese, the French, the Czechs, I would say he has some pretty tough competition. The thing with Chan is that you never really know what you'll get. He can be amazing or he can flop. If he shows up at his best, he has a decent shot at winning, but it's not certain because there are so many men out there that are great.
As for him being cold, I wouldn't go that far and say that he's cold. But, I do think that he still has ways to go on the expression level, although he is better than most in my opinion. I honestly didn't think he was unexpressive until a I watched his SP right after Takahashi's.
Despite all "brilliance", can't bring myself to like his skating/this guy.
He's just a COPot.
Again, to each his own. IMHO, Chan has brilliant blade control and ice coverage, combined with the use of good music and choreo. I suppose that's all it takes for some to be bowled over or to detect true artistry. Fine, "different strokes for different folks," is apt. For me, artistry is more than closing your eyes and extending your arms, and being a brilliant technician -- so much more. I feel no emotional connection between Chan and the audience, nor between Chan and his music. Those who do, I suppose feel happy being part of the club.
Ha ha re: "I suppose the 'little respect' for not being consistent on the 3A only applies to Chan." Obviously, the judges have given Chan, Lambiel, and Lysacek mucho respect in spite of their poor (and in Lamby’s case later in his career) non-existent 3 axels. OTOH, plenty of skaters are dumped on big time, if they make even a slight mistake or a miss on a jump. Figure skating is a very political sport after all. It is not simply based on what happens on the ice. That's why it's important for skaters to strive for consistency and to perform to their best ability and let the chips fall where they may. It's a very subjective sport, and the debates will never end.
For me these are some performances that evince true artistry:
Toller Cranston: “In 1974 in Munich, … it was just an intellectual idea that took off, and I was the vehicle…” Mind you, no talk from Cranston of being part of a club. Toller pushed the sport forward in Munich in 1974, but was only rewarded with 4th place.
John Curry, inspired by Cranston, pushed the sport further forward at the 1976 Olympics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z79TMsYRnEc Technically brilliant and artistic
So what one planned triple was doubled – no need to be part of a club to be mesmerized by this performance. Some viewers were brought to tears by Matt’s artistry.
Gorgeous, technically brilliant jumps, fluid, lyrical movement, exciting spins – a complete skater. The sport was pushed forward by this performance.
Technically brilliant jumps, effortless 3 axel, moves like liquid gold. The sport was pushed forward by this performance, as it showed the beauty and the power that is possible for men to achieve and with no lunging forward on jump landings. Johnny’s competitors took notice, but similar to Toller Cranston, Weir was not fully embraced by the sport.
Excitement, emotional connection to the audience and to the music, technical brilliance, true artistry. What a performance. Que stupendo! Ole!
Adding a quad to Dai's above performance would do nothing to enhance his performance. So what, it adds points and satisfies Plushy and those who are gung ho on quads. Artistry and charisma (emotional connection to music and to audience) should be worth as much or more points than the quad, IMHO.
aftershocks, I love all your choices - and comments.
If we get two clean and high quality performances from Takahashi and Kozuka, and Chan with even ONE fall (never mind two or three), I hope they beat him easily. If he falls and still manages to beat those two with clean performances, there is something seriously wrong with the judging system and/or the judges. Takahashi and Kozuka have terrific skating skills and basic technique themselves - Chan should NOT have any kind of one-or-more-fall advantage over them in the way he might have over an inferior skater.
I personally think both of them are far better in a lot of ways, and infinitely more interesting to watch. Chan is technically very good but his ego is way too overblown for me to even like him. He talks like he thinks he's the best skater who ever lived.
What I dislike about Chan is his big mouth. May be the reporter misquoted him- may be I should give him the benefit of the doubt, for now.
I prefer people who are humble about their talents and their successes. Chan has the talent; the success has been there, but not so great that he has to compare himself with the likes of Woods or Federer. "Dominate the sport"? I hope this motivates his competitors. It will be good for the sport to have a rivalry, and not just one skater being handed the title, no matter what he does in the actual competition (referring to the GP).
I would like to enjoy watching his skating without his mouth spoiling it.
I understand that Chan's skating (or anyone's for that matter) isn't going to touch everyone emotionally. Like you said, it's subjective. But "I feel no emotional connection to his skating" isn't a very good argument for why Chan shouldn't win, IMO. And there's no need to be patronizing towards those of us who do like his artistry.
As far as Lysacek and Lambiel, I would argue that Chan has a stronger triple axel. He hasn't struggled the way Lambiel has, and it doesn't look cheated the way Lysacek's did. I think Chan's triple axel looks decent when landed, but he has problems landing it with consistency.
For all those who enjoy Chan's skating, there is much there to admire of course. I enjoyed Chan's skating when he first gained international success as a teenager. My enjoyment waned, as his head, mouth and the inflated hype about him grew. He seemed to decide he was so much better than everyone else, and began making ill-advised comments. I was rooting for him at 2009 Worlds, but he spoiled that opportunity for himself. I've since lost interest in him as a skater -- there are too many other more interesting skaters who are part of the mix, and who are as good or better than him on a number of levels. I'm making no argument about whether or not Chan should win, just sharing what I feel and don't feel about his skating. Whoever will win, should be decided on the ice, on the day of competition.
If Chan possessed maturity and graciousness, and had the sense to focus on developing his artistic interpretation, rather than smack talking and proclaiming himself part of a club, he might already be a World champion. Sure, he may yet be one by the end of this week on the strength of his skating skills and well-executed quads. If so, hopefully he will be counseled not to gloat about it.
I agree with Vash and others who want to see a competition, not over-inflated marks for a favored skater that puts the competition out of reach. That scenario has happened too often in this sport. Of course, realistically, medaling is fantastic and all that, but the political nature of the sport, and exciting depth in the men's field means that many will fall short of medals, no matter how well they perform.
While Chan's certainly had his moments, I think you're blowing everything he says out of proportion. For example, earlier you were talking about his comments on Johnny's rose crown. If you actually saw the interview in which he said that, you can tell that it was an off-hand comment and not a malicious attack against Johnny.
Speaking of Johnny, I know from reading your posts that you're one of his fans, yet you never seem to call him out for the negative things he's said about other skaters.
You are correct, Lambiel certainly had an illustrious amateur career and he's going to have an even more illustrious pro one. Lambiel also showed plenty respect for his fellow skaters and openly acknowledged his issues with the 3A. Regardless, I still do not think a skater should be able to top-ten at the elite level without a 3A. Which is a shame as I enjoy the pure elation Lambiel exudes when he performs.
Not at all. My point is simply thus: if, once upon a time, skaters were able to have two or three flawless quads in competition and a flawless 3A, why is it so hard for the current generation to manage? Kulik, Plushenko, Yagudin all managed to attain the 4T without damaging their 3As. So have many others. Why is it that nowadays we are seeing skaters immediately struggle with their 3As when they try the 4T? Is it a training style? A poor technique? A mental block? I'm genuinely interested here.
You lost interest in Chan's skating because of his inflated hype or because he spoiled the 2009 Worlds opportunity for himself? And if there are so many more interesting skaters out there, how come you didn't notice them before 2009 given the fact that it's basically the same skaters now as prior to LA?
I'm afraid that you can't make other people like what you like and dislike what you dislike and my advice is that you should really try to live with it.
I agree with the first point but not entirely with the second. Chan isn't the best of performers, but IMO his emotional connection with the audience and his music are better than average. Not the best, no, but better than many. And he really upped the level of his performance ability in his SP this year.
However, his technical mastery and the choreographic details of his programs enable him to use the music brilliantly. At its highest level of execution and expression, technique becomes art.
ITA with your points, misskarne. Perhaps those who struggle the most with their 3A, perhaps did not have a secure 3axel technique, before being pushed to develop quads. I think there are probably numerous issues surrounding the difficulty of quads. Some can land gorgeous quads in practice, but have trouble landing them cleanly and consistently in competition.
RockTheTassel: In regard to my club reference being patronizing, that is exactly the point I was making. Chan is the one talking about being part of a club. Okay, you may feel its no biggie, its simply his way of pumping himself up, but it doesnt give off the best impression. Hmmmm, we can take the Johnny discussion to pm, if you have a mind to do so. I'd hate for this thread to descend into another referendum on Johnny Weir's numerous failings and the extremes of opinions about him. I will say, as I've said before, Johnny is not a saint. However, the only bitch slapping between him and another skater occurred between him and Lysacek largely due to aiding and abetting by the media and the USFS. And the worst of the back and forth never occurred at or prior to a competition. IMO, Johnny and Evan under the surface always had a lot of respect for each other's talent. People and circumstances around them changed the way they view each other. Sure, Michael Weiss has had some unkind things to say about Johnny, and Johnny describes Michael in an unkind way in his book. However, Johnny never came to a competition smack talking opponents, and never claimed he was part of a dominating club or better than everyone else. It actually may have helped Johnny if he truly believed he was better than everyone else. While Lysacek has previously discussed Tiger Woods as a role model, he never talked about being part of a club, or dominating the sport.
Again, there is nothing wrong with pumping oneself up, and expressing the desire to claim some hardware, a la Ryan Bradley. For me, Chan is pumping himself up in an off-putting way. I think the over-the-top praise Chan has received from supporters has gone to his head. Chan's bravado and some of his comments show his immaturity -- but no skater, and no human being is necessarily immune to that failing. In any case, other posters have also indicated they are turned off by some of the comments Chan has made. Frankly, if Chan can bring the goods consistently and dominate, without favoritism from the judges, that will be a feather in his cap, and maybe a crown on his head. I would hope his artistry would also improve with his planned domination. Chan may indeed win multiple World championships, but there are too many excellent skaters right now, not to mention younger ones coming up, for Chan to claim he will be the King of the Hill for years to come. Of course, anything is possible, and I guess that's why we debate.
Now back to the thread....
Although I do think Chan is the more talented skater as shown by his skates this year.. I think these championships will be less about talent and quads and more about mental strength because of the special circumstances.. so i will give my edge to Takahashi - he will be the man to beat.
Japanfan, That's great you are enthusiastic about the improvements you feel Chan has made in his performance ability. It will definitely be interesting to see how he carries over his performance at Canadian Nationals to Worlds this year. I can appreciate what Chan does well, and serious kudos for his hard work on developing quads, but I'm more drawn to other skaters. Certainly, Chan upping the ante with his determination to perfect quads has brought some excitement, and has admittedly inspired skaters such as Ryan Bradley – that’s a good thing.
VarBar, I'm sharing my opinions as we all are, but I have no desire to make anyone like what I like or feel what I feel. Rather you should check to see whether you personally are having second thoughts after reflecting on the viewpoints I'm sharing. If that's not the case, great. If it is, then maybe it's you who "should really try to live with it." Hope you enjoy Worlds.
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