Missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by UMBS Go Blue, Mar 8, 2014.

  1. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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  2. Citlali

    Citlali Well-Known Member

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  3. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

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    Sad story. :(
  4. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't look good at all. Sorry for all involved.
    Plane Update

    and this piece of information is troubling to say the least

  5. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    This is just so tragic...I feel so sorry for all those affected. :(
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I watched CNN couple hours ago. As of then, there was no sign of this aircraft. It must be so hard for the family members, and of course for those who were on that plane!:(
  7. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    Well, it is long, long since past the time it was fuelled for, so they're not going to find it in one piece.

    I also read yesterday that this plane had been involved in an accident some months ago where it lost a wingtip. As soon as I read that I cringed and hoped that this is not going to be yet another case of a crash caused by shoddy repair work or maintenance...
  8. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    The plane had a comprehensive inspection 10 days ago. Malaysian Airlines is also a hidden secret in that it's one of the world's finest.
  9. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    The FBI is sending a team to Malaysia to assist with the investigation, according to CNN. Singapore has sent in a sub, and the search area has been expanded.
  10. skatepixie

    skatepixie Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking terrorism -- two passengers were traveling with passports that were reported stolen. And the men who originally held those passports are safe and sound. Sounds like some terrorists stole passports. :(
  11. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    That does seem like a bizarre coincidence to not have it be terrorists, but if no organization claims it, it seems unlikely. Terrorism doesn't work if it can be written off as an accident.

    I am so sad for those lost and their families. Horrible.
  12. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    There is no suggestion there was anything wrong with the plane, and the pilot was highly experienced with over 18000 hours flying time. But I disagree about it being one of the world's finest. We have a good family friend who is an even more experienced pilot, and there are some airlines he won't fly. Malaysian is one of them.

    Even good airlines suffer from mechanical failures from time to time though, although the lack of a distress call is very strange.


    I agree with Skittl - there is definitely somethingy fishy, but terror tends to be claimed or it defeats the purpose. If it isn't claimed soon, I'd be more incline to think something else happened.

    Also why have they found oil slicks in the water? There are two different points that it has been claimed they lost contact...neither point was over water. It's very, very odd.

    Those poor people and their families :(
  13. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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  14. moebius

    moebius Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for me being so naive, but if the passports were stolen, how do the thieves get through security if the the photo doesn't match the person? Or do they manufacture a replica of it with the thieves picture on it? And I thought if the passports are reported stolen, they would become invalid.
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am no expert but it seems pasting a new picture in a stolen passport will be fairly easy. It's not clear in this case when the passports were reported stolen and if that information was entered in the database. I may be naive too. :)
  16. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    I wondered that too, but so many passports are reported lost and stolen per year, I'm not sure they'd go into a database, of if they did how long they'd remain there. In theory they should be in a database if they're reported stolen and big red flags raised if someone tries to use them.

    I'm assuming that the names and identities were used in new passports, so the pictures and biometric data matched the person the airport staff were looking at, but the numbers didn't raise red flags as having been stolen. That's pretty sophisticated work, if so.

    It's interesting that at least 2 of those 4 passports were stolen in Thailand, and one of them was stolen two years ago. Thailand is hardly the mecca for international terrorists, but both China and Thailand have some interesting internal issues.

    Terrorism is looking more likely now there are even more passports being investigated, but why isn't someone claiming it? That makes no sense. I don't think it can be ruled out, but at this stage I don't think an unrelated group of criminals travelling on stolen identities on a plane that went down can be ruled out either. It would be one hell of a coincidence though.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  17. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if those people with the stolen passports were terrorists, then how did hey get whatever it was on the plane that brought it down? Was it a bomb or just some kind of weapon to power their way into the cockpit with? As someone else said, no one is going to claim it? That goes against what most terrorists want. So many questions and so little answers. I feel so badly for the family and friends of all on board.
  18. liv

    liv Well-Known Member

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    And those 2 people with the stolen passports bought their tickets at the same time and to the same destination (somewhere in Europe) after Beijing, so obviously they were together. It does sound very suspicious and shows that not everyone checks passports against Interpol's database of stolen passports etc.. I find it strange that there was no mayday, there is no signal from the black box... it sounds like whatever happened, happened so fast that even a brief message couldn't be sent... and that sort of thing always leads to the idea of a bomb, but wow, so far it's a mystery... however, now we hear reports of some parts being found, although there's no confirmation of what they are...
  19. zippy

    zippy Active Member

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    The passport thing could definitely be an important clue pointing to terrorism, but it could also be unrelated - maybe just a couple guys wanting to immigrate to Europe illegally, or a pair of drug smugglers. Apparently the route from SE Asia to Beijing and onward to Europe is not uncommon for people wanting to go to Europe on a stolen EU passport. I've read that a cockpit fire might possibly account for no communication from the pilots that something was wrong. I think there was also no mayday from the pilots of the Air France plane that disappeared over the Atlantic a few years ago, although in that case there was a series of automated messages indicating a system failure following the last communication, which doesn't seem to be the case here unless Malaysia Air isn't saying. There are also cases of terrorism where nobody rushes forward to take responsibility for it; some terrorist groups prefer to let it play out for awhile as something mysterious to increase the fear/uncertainty. So basically, at this point it seems like nothing can be ruled out.
  20. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    Zippy can you give an example of when somebody waited to long to claim something so big?

    I can't. It doesn't sit right with terrorism. It's normally claimed within 24 hours to achieve maximum impact and destruction. No one feels particularly terrorised when they think there is every chance it could be an accident!!

    Those stolen passports would only ring alarm bells if they had the same number as those stolen, rather than the same name. Also, Malaysia is a country which allows hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers to pass through it every year, on their way to seek asylum in other countries by arriving there illegally. If anyone turns a blind eye to fake IDs, it's Malaysia!

    At this stage I feel like terrorism is increasingly unlikely. It still can't be ruled out, but if it had been claimed there would be a huge impact on air travel right now, as well as immense fear. Groups don't wait to claim - it lessens the impact.
  21. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    I think we will know more when and if the black box is found, that will show if the plane's engines stalled or if there was a loss of air pressure causing the pilots to pass out and the plane to loss control. I'm actually hoping that whatever happened happened so fast that no one on the plane was aware and no one suffered.


    I just read on AOL that radar shows the plane may had started to make a U Turn before it disappeared from radar. However no distress signal was sent from the plane if engine trouble was the reason the plane was making the U Turn.
  22. dardar1126

    dardar1126 Well-Known Member

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    The question would be whether it was a controlled turn instigated by the pilots or a turn caused by a loss of control of the airplane.
  23. reckless

    reckless Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe anyone in al Qaeda claimed responsibility for 9/11 in the immediate aftermath of the attacks. Osama Bin Laden initially denied involvement. I believe the first statement from anyone directly connected with al Qaeda that seemed to acknowledge responsibility was a video that released in October 2001.

    One thing worth pointing out is that last week was the start of a major trial connected to 9/11 -- of Sulaiman abu Ghaith, the spokesman who actually was the speaker in the video I just mentioned.
  24. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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  25. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the entire plane went into the ocean without breaking up. If the plane broke in midair or upon impact with the water then the search planes and ships would've seen a lot of debris by now.

    Doesn't the plane black box automatically emit a location signal in an accident?
  26. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There are now reports that the debris found is not from the missing airliner.

    Is that even possible? Wouldn't at least some debris and bodies have been found, like in the case of the 2009 Air France flight?

    It's just too soon to say what happened, especially considering that they've found no wreckage so far, let alone the flight recorder.
  27. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    True, but it's not entirely the same thing. 9/11 was clearly terror. Without anyone claiming this, it seems like an accident, which kind of defeats the purpose of terrorism.

    On an unrelated note, there was a couple on board who owned a business near my parents' place. I must have been there several times. They worked so hard, they left their kids with relatives in China for a while and were going to visit them. One is a toddle, one is a baby. Very sad :(
  28. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible to steal a plane this size mid-air? To make it disappear as this one did?
  29. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't the plane still show up on radar, considering that it was at cruising altitude? IIRC, the 9/11 hijackers turned off the airplanes' transponders but they were still visible to ATC on radar.
  30. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    The news says they've identified one of the people who used one of the stolen passports. They aren't releasing details on that yet, other than to say he was not Malaysian:
    http://gma.yahoo.com/officials-iden...-passport-103009458--abc-news-topstories.html

    Although they do say this:

    That article also says the following:

  31. Twizzler

    Twizzler Well-Known Member

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    They are now reporting that the oil slicks and debris found are not from the plane.
  32. MarieM

    MarieM Well-Known Member

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    How can a plane disapear out of thin air ?
    Are they trying to do Lost in real time ?
  33. Fridge_Break

    Fridge_Break Well-Known Member

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    I said to Mr. Fridge Break earlier this morning that this sounds a lot like the Oceanic flight 815... scary that this has just disappeared without a trace.
  34. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Aviation-Safety.net tweeted earlier that it's not unprecedented for a plane to vanish, crash, and not be found for some time afterward. Obviously Malaysia Airlines is a much better and more reputable carrier than AdamAir was, but maybe these cases will prove similar? Both planes were flying in southeast Asia and at the same altitude when they disappeared.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  35. zippy

    zippy Active Member

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    When I wrote that I had the Lockerbie bombing and the foiled Bojinka plot in mind, although maybe neither is a great example. I was thinking Lockerbie because the Libyans who are now accepted as having done it never made a claim, although many groups did make false claims of responsibility. But that may not be the best example as there still seems to be some doubt over who did it. In the Bojinka plot (where it was planned to blow up several airliners over the Pacific), the plan was to not announce that they had done it and let the governments try to piece it together. Not a great example either, since it never happened thankfully. But there are many smaller terrorist attacks that go unclaimed indefinitely, and bigger ones that are eventually claimed but not necessarily in a 24-hour window. Actually, it's common that they're claimed later than that. That recent Volgograd bombing was claimed about a month later, for instance. And then there's the issue of false claims which clouds it all further.

    Terrorism doesn't always have a singular purpose - for some, they might want to claim it right away if the motive was to make some demand known or to assert power. If the goal is to hurt the airline industry by making people afraid to fly, they might let the doubt linger whether an accident or terrorism was behind it (both are pretty scary, honestly). Or maybe the goal is to distract the world's attention away from something else (Ukraine crisis?). A more frightening reason why it may not be claimed is if it was a test run for a bigger plot. The Bojinka plot is a good example of this case - they tested their bombs around Manila and on a Philippines Air flight and of course didn't announce their role in it.

    I would actually think that the uncertainty in this case would make groups less likely to claim responsibility for the moment, because it can't really be taken seriously until there's evidence that terrorism occurred. Too many false claims in the past (such as Al Qaeda claiming the American Airlines crash in Nov. 2001 and the 2003 Northeast blackout even though both were determined to be accidental). It's also worth considering that not all claims are made public, especially not immediately. I actually saw somewhere a Chinese terror group is supposedly claiming responsibility now, but its credibility is considered doubtful, for instance.

    Anyway, this is a wordy way of saying the lack of a claim doesn't necessarily rule out terrorism, and if a claim was made, that wouldn't rule it "in", either, until there's some evidence confirming that.
  36. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    It actually reminds me of the TV show Banacek.
  37. mrinalini

    mrinalini Active Member

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    It sounds like a dumb question, but is there the remotest possibility that the plane has landed (probably by force) somewhere intact? I would think that an aircraft of this size could only safely land on a runway in an airport or an airfield or something like that, and if that's what has happened, the authorities would be aware of it by now. Or could the plane have landed on some remote swathe of land, so remote that all communication and attempts at signaling would be impossible?

    I guess that I'm just hoping against hope that everyone on board is safe somewhere, and that it's just really hard for the rest of the world to be aware of it right now.
  38. susan6

    susan6 Well-Known Member

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    I had a similar question. How far can a radar station track a plane? Maybe it was hijacked and the pilots were forced to make a U-turn and then fly "under the radar" to some undisclosed destination.
  39. *Jen*

    *Jen* Well-Known Member

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    I still don't think it's terrorism. This group who has allegedly claimed responsibility don't seem credible because it seems like an afterthought, like "oh hey, people think there's a chance this might be terrorism so let's advance our cause and say it was us", which I think is your point Zippy? I agree with that.

    The problem is those other instances where no group claimed it for a while, if ever, were clearly terror. This isn't clear at all! If it were terror, whoever was behind it would have some evidence of it, and they'd be able to credibly claim it or to point out that it is terror.

    As things stand, it's estimated that on average, at least one person travels on a stolen passport on every flight in Asia. It's not surprising there were 4-5 of them on one flight booked on consecutive tickets - smuggling is just one criminal activity that operates that way.

    Secondly, the terrorists on the hijacked flights on 9/11 were travelling on their own passports. If they knew they were about to die for a cause, why conceal their identity? It's more likely that the stolen passports were to conceal identity because those people were engaged in ongoing criminal activity.

    Don't forget that people thought Air France could be terror, and it turned out to be catastrophic pilot error. It also took 2 years to recover the black box in that case.

    If the plane did turn around before it went off radar, it's safe to say that it went off course. They may not have found any wreckage because they're not looking in the right place.

    I'll be highly skeptical of any group who claims responsibility for this. If they were behind it, they'd have proof to prove it now why there is uncertainty. Maximum impact is now, or more specifically 3 days ago when claiming it will have meant mass cancelation of international flights. By now, no one would be that surprised if it is terror or an accident and so the maximum impact of it has gone.
  40. misskarne

    misskarne Spirit. Focus. Ability. Tenacity. Aussie Grit.

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    No. It would have shown up on radar.

    If it went into the sea more or less in one piece it would have sunk by now...making it much more difficult to find. The most important piece of debris they need to find are the black boxes, before their battery runs out.