Mirai vs. Frank

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Since you said you don't have IN, you missed all the interaction between them during the GP events. You don't have the whole story.
     
  2. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    Um, that's why I'm asking? :confused: AND, I'm asking about other coaches besides Frank and Brian O. What other top-level coach has acted so rudely in the K & C after their skater has screwed up knowing they were on national tv? I've never seen it in all my decades of watching skating on TV. Frank knew he was on national TV and he hasn't acted like this before that I cn remember.

    -Bridget
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  3. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    It is her own team, I would expect to protect her in media exposure, not say more and cause discussions. It looked like he wanted to justify her skate and not take the responsibility for the failure (and now i saw it it is not a melt down as I thought from descriptions), she skated a great sp and made a wobble in 2axel and a major spin mistake in Lp, this does not justify his words and she is just 17,how exactly these words in public serve the progress of his skater?
     
  4. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    Because no one ever thinks that when a skater bends over to tie their laces, it's "mooning". Skaters do it all. the. time. For Frank to make an issue out of it to the press, it comes across as highly unusual.

    Frank was mad at MK when she was 12 for showing up with banged up skates. He didn't run to tell the press. He reprimanded her in private.

    -Bridget
     
  5. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I don't understand this thread. Mirai didn't make the world team; so what? Many didn't. Why is it necessary to try to pin the blame on someone-- skater or coach?

    Mirai knows what kind of coach Frank is before she signed up. She picked him and watned to train under him--it is not as if this is a student randomly assigned to an unsuitable teacher by USFSA.
     
  6. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    jlai, this thread isn't about pinning blame for MN not making the team. It's about FC unusual behavior in the K & C.

    -Bridget
     
  7. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Well, she did fire Joannie for a time.

    The truth is, lots of coaches can be considered jerks to their skaters and it's up to the skater to decide if that works for them or not. None of us know the situation between Frank and Mirai, how her training was going, what he had told her before the competition, etc. She's been working with him long enough to understand his training methods. As has been mentioned before, she went to him specifically for his tough love approach. Maybe Frank was speaking to her in a way he knew she needed to be spoken to. It's not like he yelled at her the whole time she was in the kiss and cry. It was an immediate response to how she skated, one sentence spoken in a fairly quiet manner. I didn't even hear the first bit until I watched it again, specifically listening for it.

    Bottom line, Mirai will leave if she feels he is too abusive. Frank's style is not for everyone, and he might be harsher than some, but you'd be hard pressed to find a coach that doesn't act like a hard ass occasionally. Some coaches are genuinely abusive as well, but they usually don't have amazing results. The truly great coaches know how to be tough without being cruel, and know when reassurance is needed over criticism. Frank's longevity and ability to produce champions through 3 major eras of sport (figures, 6.0, COP) speaks for itself. His methods obviously work for a certain type of skater. Whether Mirai is that skater remains to be seen.

    There's only one spot on top of the podium, and if you're never going to get there if you can't take negative comments. You need to be hard as a rock mentally and have the ability to control your emotions. The truth is, champions are usually tougher on themselves than any coach will be. Skating is a cruel, cruel sport that chews athletes up and spits them out. It unfortunate and my heart always aches in situations like Mirai's, but it's the nature of the beast. I wish her nothing but the best, whether with Frank of without.
     
  8. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    YES. Charlene Wong is on record as saying the exact same things about Mirai that Frank is now saying (challenging, stubborn, lazy, etc.), and she also said that in the year after her national championship, she hardly ever did long program run-throughs. I also know one of her former coaches who coached her for 9 years, who told me that not only is she very headstrong, but she was such a gifted skater that she never had to work very hard. This longtime coach also said Mirai's mother has been a problem, making decisions that go against her coaches' requests and also encouraging bad habits. Her mother used to reward her for cheating her jump landings on the toepick and would scold her for falling or otherwise not completing a jump, and this is probably why she still reverts to cheating jump landings on the toe when she is nervous (i.e., the long program).

    Is it any wonder she ended up switching to a coach who had a very firm hand? I'm not Frank's #1 fan, but I certainly don't think he should be blamed for being a disciplinarian. It's what she needs, and that's why she's with him. She has also been known to be a basket case right before the long program. I've never seen Frank or Charlene have to give any other skater a kick in the pants just to get them on the ice like they have had to do with Mirai.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  9. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I'm in the UK and don't have IN either, but where there's a will.... :)

    Ok so other coaches who've chewed out their skaters in public:

    Tarasova destroyed Mao at TEB in 2008 after the free skate. Someone translated it and she was rattling on about her mistakes then said disdainfully - 'you couldn't even do rittberger'. Luckily for Mao I don't think she understood a word.

    Carlo Fassi could be pretty vocal, especially to the press. He called Robin a chicken for doubling his SP combination at 1980 Europeans and when asked about it Robin agreed with him.

    Oh and who can forget our own very dear Frank again at 1990 Worlds after Bowman's improvised LP. ''What was that program? I've never seen that program before''. :rofl: I mean that whole coach/skater relationship was so infamous they actually did fluff pieces on it at 1990 Worlds.

    Oh and then of course there's Machiko Yamada's treatment of Midori Ito at the 1984 Junior Worlds in Japan. Midori won the free and came 3rd overall but made a couple of errors in her LP. Yamada absolutely chewed her out in the press conference which was well documented in reports of the event and there are rumours that she actually slapped her in full view of press and such backstage. Obviously that's absolutely outrageous. :mad:

    These are just ones that spring to mind. Most times you can't hear what's said so we don't have a clue do we? You don't like it? Fair enough, but it's nothing new in this sport. At all. And it's certainly not just Frank Carroll.
     
  10. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Exactly floskate. Who should Mirai go to? Tarasova? John Nicks? Tom Z.? Arutunian? Callaghan? Galina & Viktor? Mitchell & Johansson? Because they're all so lovey-dovey. :lol:
     
  11. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I don't understand the point of this thread. Mirai didn't make the world team; so what? Many didn't. At least she podiumed. Why is it necessary to pin the blame on skater or coach? And why is it necessary to blame the coach as a way of defending a skater who's supposedly "attacked"?

    Mirai knew what kind of coach Frank is before she signed up. She picked him and watned to train under him--it is not as if this is a student randomly assigned to an unsuitable teacher by USFSA.

    This is not about buying Frank's side of the story or Mirai's --life is hardly so simple. I just don't understand why people need to judge others based on a few interactions they see--unless people here have inside stories?

    And why should people we consider "public figures" be held at a higher level than we hold ourselves? Lord knows, even parents say something wrong occasionally or give the wrong advice, let along teachers or coaches.

    Re: Nicks. Not everyone likes the gentler approach. Different strokes for diff folks
     
  12. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    It's time for Mirai to grow up. Soon she will be 18. Frank was upset because she didn't go out and try to win. She was already beaten before she skated after seeing Alissa's marks. And her sloppy mistakes on things like her spins should never happen. Yet it's happened twice now. She needs to get serious about her skating career and stop playing around. I love Mirai's spirit and talent but she needs to harness it.
     
  13. Jagerboy

    Jagerboy Member

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    Who was the male skater that had a bad skate and fell right before his footwork this year, I think it was the short program to Michael Jackson? Peter O and Karen Kwan are his coaches and they actually laughed with him in the Kiss and Cry and made him feel at ease. They could have let him have it, but instead, they took the high road and I am assure will adress the issues in private.
     
  14. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, floskate, for the examples. I will say that when Frank said that to Bowman, Bowman was a drug-addict and I didn't have a problem with the tough love (I love Bowman, don't get me wrong); treating Mirai, who is not anywhere near the bad-boy Bowman, in such a manner from a man who coached a skater like Bowman, is OTT to me.

    As for the example of TAT and Mao... Mao isn't with her anymore, is she. Midori never won an OGM, so it seems that kind of coaching maybe didn't work for her either.

    -Bridget
     
  15. loopey

    loopey Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:

    I'm sorry just popped into the Last page of this thread to kind of get a gist of what it was all about. This cracks me up. Charlene allegedly grabbed and shoved Mirai and you answer back "she was motivating Mirai", and FC said she gave away a comp and appeared frustrated and you don't understand his behavior?

    Doesn't anyone but me, find this a little funny?
     
  16. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    But Wong did it before a skate, not kicked her when she was down after a skate. And, I'm comparing Frank with Frank. Frank usually doesn't act this way. BTW, I was kind of thinking there was a little exaggeration in the post I was replying to and will try to find the clip for myself on youtube or dig out my dvd; but I still think there's a difference in the before/after timing.

    -Bridget
     
  17. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Though Mirai is an amazing skater and very talented, she spends a lot of time coming across as a dorky kid. She is on a road to being a woman who it stuck in a girly girly cutesey cutesey persona for a long time. Also, she almost has a character trait that I have. I am very talented at a lot of things but no matter how many people tell me; and I am also aware of the fact, a lot of times, I just don’t complete things once I can see the finish line. Mirai has been the leader how many times? She can do clean programs but its almost like she’s comfortable with the fact that she’s got potential whether she realizes it or not. Hard to explain but I get it.

    With respect to the silliness about Frank being mean; whatever dude. If it was the first time Mirai blew it then Frank would be understanding. He was to Michelle when she had mistakes that costed her. Why would he baby Mirai when she is a young woman not a little girl. She is an Olympian who acts really immature at times to be honest. I believe you should attack weakness not pacify it. It was clear that her heart was not in that free skate and she is simply too good to basically flunk like that. Still, that’s what she chose. Though Frank is well paid for his tutelage, when a coach invests so much of themselves into a student and the student repeatedly throws it away, most coaches get fed up. It’s really disrespectful actually. Mirai needs to decide what she wants for one thing and for another, we need to wait on her to grow up. Frank is not the problem. He’s the best thing for her.

    BTW, John Nicks is no slouch. Does anyone remember him voicing his opinion towards the press with Sasha Cohen and the quad at Skate America? Maybe Mirai should go to Robin Wagner and get babied like Elene Gedevanishvili gets. If there was ever a skater who needed a stern hand…
     
  18. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Sean Rabitt. But his is a different story. It's his first year as a Senior and when he slipped and fell on nothing, that was just the kind of fluke that could happen to anyone, especially someone who is really excited just to be competing at Nationals as a Senior for the first time.

    The question is, is there something about Mirai that makes her coaches air her dirty laundry to the media? I remember being flabbergasted when Charlene Wong would divulge negative things about Mirai in interviews, because I know Charlene and she is one of those people who just never says anything negative, period. And now Frank is doing the same thing. My theory is that Mirai's coaches end up resorting to whatever works for her, and that's discipline and negative reinforcement. Mirai herself said that she comes from a culture where negative reinforcement works better than praise, so it's no wonder that's what they end up doing to get her butt in gear. The public shame of having her bad attitude publicized in the media would be another way to get through to someone brought up in the Japanese culture, since one of the worst things you can do is to bring shame upon yourself and your family. Maybe the only way to get her to be a diligent student is to hang that over her head.
     
  19. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    I thought ALL we should be graceful and polite, and politically correct on the media that is the fs purpose. ;) (joke)

    The thing is not what Caroll could have said to Mirai off the record, they should probably have a long talk about her performances,and he should kick her butt to wake up and be more confident or whatever. Or whatever it needs for her to improve.
    It is rather strange though to give your own skater away to the media. Support them in defeat in public, not only when they win the Olympic Medal. What is the use of saying this and the public would know?

    Maybe he will dumb her like he did with Goebel.
     
  20. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Wait, so you think Charlene kicking her out onto the ice before the program and then being happy after the program is better than Frank telling Mirai she's the best skater in the world before the skate, but making a quick remark after that she blew it? :confused: What if Frank had said "don't be an idiot and blow it" before the skate? Would you be applauding him? Obviously having a happy coach both before and after is ideal, but personally, I'd rather have a coach be pissed at me after I screwed up than before I even start my program. Also, how do you think Charlene would have reacted if Mirai hadn't skated that well? Do you really think she would have been all rainbows and puppies?
     
  21. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    No of course she isn't but just because she's Mirai, why should she somehow be protected from a home truth that Frank felt was justified? She's not 6 years old!!

    Tat still choreographs for Mao and from what I've read ties are definitely NOT severed even though she's coached by Sato now. And Midori was a tough case because Yamada was pretty much her only coach as well as a surrogate Mother. When Midori's parents divorced, she went to live with Yamada aged 9 I believe so lines were very much blurred in taht particular case. Her not winning the OGM isn't really proof of Yamada being the wrong coach for Midori.

    And how could I forget Jutta Muller? I'm sure it was Kati Witt who wrote in her biography that while she (Muller) was preening for the cameras in the K&C and stroking her skaters faces, she was digging her nails into their thighs and demanding to know why they'd missed a certain jump - all through those smiles to camera!!
     
  22. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect coaches to be "rainbows and puppies" I never said I did (besides, if I did I'd want "rainbows and kitties ;)) Just do it in private. As long as Mirai and her parents are fine with it, I don't think it's my business, but when it's in public there's going to be discussion.

    floskate, Frank can say whatever "home truths" to Mirai -- in private. But he did this in public so it's a given that we'd talk about it.

    -Bridget
     
  23. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    PML. Some of you have never been an athlete or played a sport with a coach. I remember many basketball bus rides home in absolute silence and having to pee in a coke bottle because we weren't stopping. Girl's basketball I might add. All because we blew a game that our coach felt we should have won. That's to say nothing of the laps we ran the next day or what was said in the locker room or to you on the bench. If you can't take the training, you'll never be an elite athlete in any sport.

    And there's alltogether a difference in how a coach reacts a skater who doesn't have a prayer of winnings performance and one who does. Sean Rabbit is a perfect example.
     
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  24. brina

    brina Well-Known Member

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    rfisher, this may be true, but do you think given the opportunity, that your coach would have spoken on public grounds to the media about how lazy you and your team were?
     
  25. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    And I have no issue with it being done in public. It makes the sport a whole lot more interesting to me. It was a legitimate statement delivered as just that. As I've already said, he didn't bawl at her or swear or even say it in a nasty way. It was what it was. The truth, and the fact that it was said in public is neither here nor there to me. Isn't skating fake enough without skaters and coaches posing for happy family snaps in the K&C after sub-par skates and smiling through clenched teeth creating totally awful awkward atmospheres knowing there's gonna be hell to pay as soon as they get backstage? He was honest with her and I'm sure she doesn't have an issue with it at all. If she does she can do the typical teenage thing and tweet to 'stop to tell a lie F', move to john Nicks and then we can all endure thread upon thread blaming Frank or blaming Mirai :D
     
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  26. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    ^^not to mention you peed in the coke ;)
    I have been an athlete and blew bigger time than Mirai in competitions but I wouldnt like to be told off via Hersh, I prefer the private way.
    Maybe thats the reason I was not a successful one though.
     
  27. Morry Stillwell

    Morry Stillwell Well-Known Member

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    Frank Carrol and John Nicks are both superior Coaches. A skater always gets what they put into the relationship when being coached by either Frank or John.

    They both are very cool and precise when they coach a skater. It has been my fortune to be at the boards with them at Olympics, Worlds, Nationals and many other events. You are dam right that both John and Frank are disappointed when a skater does not live up to potential. Beyond the fact that both John and Frank are great coaches they are real gentlemen in the traditional sense.

    Morry Stillwell
     
  28. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Frank is an outstanding coach, one of the finest in the United States. I'm just not sure if he is the right choice for Mirai. I could see her with Nicks, Oppegard, or Gambill in the future.
     
  29. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    Agreed x 10000000

    And I believe Mirai would tell those who think they know better than her what coach she needs, that they're crazy, and she loves being coached by Frank. Frank is structured, and Mirai obviously wants that. He keeps her on her toes and working hard.
     
  30. loopey

    loopey Well-Known Member

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    Phil Jackson doesn't seem to have a problem with calling out Kobe Bryant (the ball hog), Ron Artest (a really bad shooter), Andrew Bynum (questionable work ethic), etc. etc. etc. He's been doing it for a looooong time. I also remember Tommy LaSorda letting a couple of his players have it in the media.

    Maybe it's because I live in the LA area, and follow sports in the LA Times, but I can't think of any professional coach that hasn't called out one of his players at one time or another. And USC/UCLA coaches do it too.

    I doubt Kobe gets his 140 million dollar panties in a bunch over anything Phil says. For crying out loud, Phil wrote a book and blasted Kobe Monday-Friday and then ended up coaching him again.

    If Frank Carroll was anybody but Frank Carroll, I would be expecting a tell-all book with many juicy details of his students. He could probably retire in massive luxury with just the chapters on Kwan alone if he wanted to. Now that would be when we need to talk about Frank's behavior. Do it Frank, Do it! :p