Mirai vs. Frank

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    I think Mirai and Frank will be fine. They both praise one another plenty. It isn't going to be another Goebel/Carroll incident.

    Side Note: If there was one person I wanted an autograph or picture from this weekend, it was Frank. No luck though :)
  2. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Yes, he did get hit before and IIRC it bled. I don't blame him for being mad.

    And Mirai most certainly does not need a new coach. She's improved dramatically under Frank Carroll's tutelage. She did blow it and they both knew it. Moreover, she's made the same mistake several times now. She's a self-admitted slacker in practice. Her parents are paying big bucks for her to be an elite skater. It's time she either puts in the time or tells them to save that money for their retirement. I don't see anybody criticizing Orser for being visibly mad with Adam after that short program which he knew just cost them a trip to worlds. Adam nails that jump time after time and blew it when it counted.

    I crack up at people who think skaters should be treated like porcelain or fragile babies. Ever sat in on a high school locker room after you blew a big game? Or ridden the bus back home? These are elite athletes not 6 year olds playing t-ball who get a a prize even when you're terrible.
  3. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Maybe I haven't heard the whole quote, but if all everyone is reacting to is Frank saying "I'm sorry you gave it away" this is a bit of an over-reaction.

    Elite athletes usually have enormous egos that are capable of standing up to a harsh critique from the coach who trains them day-in day-out. I suspect Mirai went to Frank precisely for the kind of tough approach he uses. Refer to Manon Perron/Joannie Rochette relationship. That woman was HARD on her, and she loved her for it.

    Frank apparently adores this kid too and I'm sure he has lots of brownie points stored up with her to cash out on a rainy day.

    Edited to add: I also don't know many people over 70 who like to be pelted unexpectedly.
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  4. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    I coached competitive speakers for years and taught kids this age. Most 17 year olds who have been seriously competing in anything know when they have not given their best performance. And they don't usually want tea and sympathy in the immediate aftermath. They want honesty. If I said to a competitor immediately after they blew all their lines in duet acting at district, "oh, well, you tried, it will be better next time", 90% of them would say "what next time? I just blew it and ended the season" then brush me off.

    I had a kid blow the last line of a play at a one-act competition one year. He stood silent on stage for 30 seconds. It was awful. The cast came off and the maternal part of me wanted to hug him and tell him it was okay. But he was an 18 year old senior who had been competing for all of high school in drama and speech. He knew it wasn't okay. He looked at me and said, "I blew it." So I said, "yeah, but you won't do it again". If it had been districts, it would have ended the season and I would have probably just said "yeah."

    They aren't babies and their self esteem will survive.
  5. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Every skater needs something different in the K&C, and the coach knows what will have the most effect long-term on that particlar skater. Let's not forget that the coach is their COACH, not their parent. The goal of the coach is to make them a better skater. The goal of the PARENT is to give the unconditional support, the hugs, the "it'll be OK no matter what."
  6. TracyF

    TracyF New Member

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    This is true. I'm not having any real trouble with what Frank said, honestly; but it's one thing not to pull punches when you're one-on-one, coach to skater. It's another to do it publicly.
  7. modern_muslimah

    modern_muslimah Well-Known Member

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    I love Mirai but I don't get all the bashing of Frank Carroll and what he did in the K&C. Mirai blew it in the LP and she knew it. Why should Carroll sugar coat it and say "it's ok"? He supports her and congratulates her when she does well. As for what he said to Hersh, this unfortunately, isn't the first time a coach has lamented her work ethnic. If she only started to buckle down three weeks prior to Nationals, then that would explain why her LP looked so unsteady.

    I don't see them parting ways. It seems like Mirai is use to his tough love and it also seems that she knows she needs it. Frank can only do so much. Mirai has the talent but she also needs to put in the work.
  8. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai hasn't been with Frank for very long. If the nastyness between them continues into next season, then she should get a new coach. But, making a change now after she didn't have the best season could be seen as a bit of a musical coaches move. It would almost seem like the Caroline Zhang situation. So I say she give it some more time and if things get sour then maybe she will change coaches over the summer or after next season, but not now.
  9. LuckyCharm

    LuckyCharm Well-Known Member

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    Because she's a wittle Amewican pwincess and if he's mean it might make her cry and that would be the worst thing ever.:wuzrobbed:drama:
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  10. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    The important thing is that she seems to be doing way better with Frank than she did with her previous coach, who couldn't seem to get a handle on her. Didn't Charlene have a problem with getting Mirai to follow her instructions?
  11. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai cries all the time so I don't think it would be taken too seriously, actually. More likely people would just think she's an emotional wreck rather than that Frank is too mean to her.
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    There are National Champions and former National Champions (ie Flatt) who have tried as hard as they can to emote. They have gotten instruction, chosen costumes they like, chosen music they love. They put in all this effort and other people do not see it.

    ETA: You really answered your own question.

    All top coaches have issues like this, but they are top coaches because they can get results at all. Furthermore, yes, some are "self-inspired", that is it is natural and can't be forced. Some have it while some don't.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  13. LuckyCharm

    LuckyCharm Well-Known Member

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    You know, I'd almost forgotten about Mirai's crybaby ways. She really seems to have grown out of that. I imagine Frank is at least partially responsible for that change.
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    She's not a crybaby anymore I wouldn't say, she's just openly emotional. The commentators always talk about how she wears her heart on her sleeve, she's just an extroverted personality.
  15. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    There have been a number of times when he's told her not to cry in the K&C, that she'd live to skate another day, that it's ok nobody died etc after rough LP's. He's done an excellent job of getting her to keep things in perspective as well as reign in her emotions IMO.

    As to Frank holding fire and letting her have it backstage and playing all smiley huggable coach for the cameras, well yeah perhaps in an ideal world, but it sure does make things a heck of a lot more interesting for us when it's played out like this. :lol:

    Just watched Adam's SP and Brian chewing him out after - which no one seems to be making too much of a fuss about but I guess it's ok 'cos Adam's a man and he can take it whereas Mirai is America's next ice princess and should be treated accordingly :drama: It's sports, this is what happens.
  16. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    Do you think she has the potential of building a good rapport with her fans? Both Sasha and Michelle weren't that emotional and didn't have the tendency to say the silly little things on their mind.
  17. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think Carroll has shown in the past that he won't tolerate emotionally fragile skaters indefinitely. He fired Bowman, Chin, and Goebel. I think he feels that if he can't help them win why waste his time and reputation and their money.

    Fratianne, Kwan, and Lysacek were extremely tough mentally and I think he was able to accept that they couldn't be perfect all of the time and be supportive for that reason.

    As far as elite coaches being warm and fuzzy, I think that is a PR fabrication. Elite coaches and competitors must be driven and ambitious to succeed. We saw how quickly the fangs came out on both Orser and Kim the first time their reputations were challenged.

    As far as tolerating less talented middle-of-the road skaters, they don't take nearly as much of his time as an international competitor does. And as another poster pointed out he can't depend on his elite skaters for his living. They can quit him as well.
  18. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Finally!

    My sources claim that this is exactly what Frank is like. At least some skaters feel that way about him.

    Nobody is perfect and nobody's approach is going to work for everyone.

    It is very annoying to see Frank (or anybody else for that matter) being venerated and any criticism of him being immediately shouted down.

    Also, the way he spoke to Denis Ten after his absolutely disastrous five fall FS at Skate America was just :huh:.

    In the K&C you need to show support to your skater, regardless of what happened. Obviously some criticism and analysis of what happened is necessary but do it later, when the emotions have subsided and both you and your skater have calmed down.

    Everybody should be treated with kindness and respect.

    And football/soccer/basketball/volleyball/etc. coaches who think that SHOUTING at their players is the only way to get their message across are idiots and should do their Psychology 101.

    And what is the point of saying that to her then? You think she didn't know? What constructive purpose is it going to achieve other than kicking somebody who already is down?

    Orser was a total knob too. And it's not the first time.

    When Adam imploded back during GP, Orser had absolutely no clue how to deal with it.

    Adam was really stunned and just kept repeating "I don't understand what happened" and Orser looked visibly uncomfortable, showed negative body language to Adam and didn't engage with him at all.

    It was just embarrassing. All coaches should go through at least minimal sport psychology training or at least pick a freakin' book or two.

    The choice isn't between either being strict and nasty or too lenient.

    You can maintain discipline whilst at the same time being there for your skaters when it matters.

    And discipline doesn't mean shouting at people or telling them they sucked. Discipline should be maintained through consistency and respect.

    Manon Perron is a perfect example of a coach who was extremely strict but never behaved in ways mentioned in this thread.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  19. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    I just watched the video and didn't really see anything wrong with what Frank said. Mirai knows what she needed to do, and her and Frank work together all the time. It's not as if it was some stranger coming up and saying that to her, who knew nothing of what training she's gone through, etc. They know one another well enough.

    Meh.
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  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Frank coached Christopher Bowman from 1973-74 (6 years old) to 1991, including taking him to drug rehab in the late 80s. That's hardly lack of investment.

    Chin's mom left for greener pastures after Frank took Tiffany all the way to a Jr. World Championship.

    Goebel wanted a coach more like the coach he ended his career with rather than Frank, but Frank still coached him to Olympic Bronze and World Silver before Tim left.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  21. aymkjb88

    aymkjb88 New Member

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    Not sure if it's been posted, but it's a quite insightful article about Mirai and Frank's relationship, Frank's coaching style and Mirai's mental issue, with cute mention of Evan and Mirai's friendship.

    Nagasu's biggest challenge could be her own doubts


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  22. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    Yes, any coach in any sport who wants to instill focus and emotional control in their athlete needs to first set the example themselves.
    FC has an enviable record, but honestly, how can he (with a straight face) tell Mirai not to cry in the K&C while he allows himself to get noticeably pissed and abusive there.
    Oh well, this is all probably much ado about nothing.

    .
  23. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    Frank was much more supportive for Kwan at 1997 nats than for Mirai. Maybe because Mirai isn't such a famous skater yet? I don't believe he would tell her something like that if she was as much decorated competitior as Kwan was.
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I have read it differently in various places on all 3 counts. In fact I saw a televised interview where Goebel said himself that Frank "fired me". I also read a direct quote in an interview with Carroll that he wished he'd had the courage to tell Bowman that he was a drug addict.
  25. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    Frank? abusive? Otay....

    This is bull. Michelle went out there & tried her best; Mirai didn't. Michelle had a comp like Mirai at the Goodwill Games, I forgot what year but both she & Tim Goebel just totally blew if for no good reason & Frank acted exactly the same to them as to Mirai. When your parents are disappointed in you because they know you could do better but just didn't try your best do they say it's ok or do they show their disapproval?
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Well, he was. It is very sad.
  27. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    Why exactly do you think Mirai didn't try her best?
  28. Stormy

    Stormy Well-Known Member

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    She flubbed a spin of all things. A spin she should be able to do in her sleep with both hands and one skate tied behind her back. Even Alissa in her really bad freeskates never messed up a spin that I can recall.

    Maybe Frank is fed up with her. Maybe Mirai really does need to get her head on straight for once. If Frank is right and she didn't get her s*it together until three weeks before Nationals, then he has every right to be PO'ed.

    I don't pay my coach to be my very bestest friend and coddle me and tell me everything is ok when I place badly. I pay her to kick my ass and push me when I don't want to be pushed and make me the best skater I can be. And that's what Mirai's family pays Frank for. If Mirai isn't holding up her end of the deal, to skate and train and be prepared for these situations, it's not Frank's fault.
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  29. mrinalini

    mrinalini Active Member

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    Maybe because Kwan's problems in 1997 were due to factors beyond her control such as boot problems and a growth spurt? If I recall correctly, she also talked about skating to defend rather than attacking. Mirai, OTOH, seems to be succumbing to pressure and making silly errors in giving titles away. She certainly has it within her to beat both Czisny and Flatt at her best, so I can't entirely blame Frank for getting exasperated with her. Perhaps this season Mirai's been hampered by a lack of training time due to recovery from an injury, but still, she has failed to deliver enough times after leading in the short that it's safe to say her problems aren't entirely physical.

    And I don't think Frank tiptoed around Michelle just because she was so decorated. I recall him making comments about her having to lose weight at some point ("fat doesn't fly"?), and immediately after their split I think he said something to the effect of how athletes who've been at the top for a while want to start hearing only what they want to hear.
  30. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Fs is rather sensitive in my opinion, Frank is not the Karoly family, I wonder what would happen if fs had a coach like Bela.
    Caroll should have been more gentle but I can see he is rather old now and runs out of patience and courage, every season Mirai doesnt deliver it is for him a cost, time cost, sentimental, reputation, dunno. But how many skaters does he train, is it possible to manage all? I think i counted a dozen at nationals.
    Orser was more bitchy, he was used to Yuna´s all sweety OH MY GOD world record breaking marks , and now he cant handle Adam. I havent noticed him with Gao.

    The bottom line is that Mirai ´s sp wont be at Worlds and I loved the portions part so much :(
  31. Oldsk8ter

    Oldsk8ter Active Member

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    Frank did call her an idiot and he didn't ask her why she didn't attack. He made a statement about her beating herself and then said he was sorry it happened that way.
  32. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    :respec: Agreed on both counts.

    I could just as easily start an Orser thread about what a knob he is, but I think that topic has been done to death already...
  33. query5

    query5 New Member

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    i doublt if frank was more supportive for michelle than Mirai.
    i think Mirai has too big of an ego.
    for me personally i think she shouldn't have won the Us nationals at a young age and by winning the way she did.
    she won the short, 3rd and long and won overall. okay. but she skated decent not great. they overmarked her pc's.
    in other words they held her up-marked up her pc's scores a full point compared to caroline zhang, now gao and these other skaters.
    she was good but not that good yet.

    she got to the olympics, held up.thought she should be held up.
    but i think Mirai is worse enemy. so far outside of junior nationals , i have yet to see her fight in the long program. she skates through her program, but doesn't fight. -well why should she, everyone is telling her she is best skater in world, you don't have to fight -scores will come even though you screw up, we will hold you up. pcs and other wise , why-
    1)frank-his reputation
    2) you are a decent skater,
    3) you do have good presentation,
    4) you are told you are gifted.
    5) she feels she entitled to preferential treatment.
    but unless you fight somone with less gifts and more practice will beat you out. how they keep fighting in their programs when they mess up, you give up
    when things go mirai way-she is happy , when they don't she doesn't seem to understand why.she expects it to go her way all the time.
  34. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    This made me think of his infamous quote at the 2000 Nationals: "I brought 2 guns with me. One fired, and the other one didn't" (referencing Sasha and NNN). Pretty blunt assessment that no doubt affected NNN's "being"
  35. brina

    brina Well-Known Member

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    To me it isn't even about the stuff Frank said to her in the K&C, it's more about the stuff he's saying to the media. If I were Mirai I would be questioning why I (or my family) am paying this man when he is saying all of these embarrassing things in public. Sure there is an interest in why she didn't perform up to the level she could, but why spew it out in such a fashion that makes Mirai look like a lazy slacker?? He could say, she wasn't prepared enough. Better luck next season, and that is that. The trash-talking makes one wonder if he's trying to save his own image over the situation, whereas the "tough love" could definitely be done between Frank and Mirai alone.
  36. Yukari Lepisto

    Yukari Lepisto New Member

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    From Phil Hersh
  37. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    It's probably cuz the situation was slightly different-- Mirai didn't attack, Kwan did, but it just didn't work. And besides, Mirai didn't bomb as badly as Kwan did at that Nationals.
  38. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    But even MK has been bluntly, and roundly criticized by her coach to the press (Rafael in 2004); this was not a private conversation between the two, and she had performed well and won:

    "We are going to have a serious conversation after the world championships," he was saying. "If she decides to skate (at the 2006 Winter Olympic Games, which she has said is quite likely), we will make plans and talk about trying to get new stuff into the programs, like combination spins and new positions and other things like that, if she really wants to get better and compete with the up-and-coming skaters.

    "Everything starts to cook now and you cannot cook when you have nothing in the refrigerator," he continued. "You should develop, right? If you do not develop, somebody can come up and beat you."


    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2004-01-12-brennan_x.htm
  39. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    Oh boy that is an awful thing to say to media...
  40. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    But did Frank say that or was that Hersh's extrapolation of what he said?
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