Mirai vs. Frank

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by haribobo, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Didn't he get hammered by a weighted stuffie at some comp a couple of years ago? Cup of China maybe? Can't remember where but I'm sure he actually got hurt. Might explain the dirty look he gave. Also the 'I'm sorry' comment didn't sound like sarcasm to me, it was more like an implication of 'yes I'm afraid that's what you just did and you're going to have to deal with that'.

    Maybe we're just more used to people calling a spade a spade over here but I really don't get what all the fuss is about. :confused:
     
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  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    He has 3 great champions, and, if you knew anything about statistics, you'd know almost everybody is mid-pack. What you are really saying is that most people should not try and/or participate.
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I have this point of reference that tells me that championship coaches speak this first way and therapists with loyal clients speak the second way. Just saying.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  4. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    WTF? I love all the arm chair psychologists that seem to have an ability to read minds and know exactly what's going on between these two based on a few seconds, maybe minutes at most before she took to the ice and in the Kiss and cry. Seriously?

    ANt
     
  5. John 3 17

    John 3 17 Well-Known Member

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    I think what bothered me about this is that he did it in front of us. If he speaks to her that way in private and she and her parents are ok with it, whatever; but to kind of humiliate her in front of millions was unusual in ANY coach, let alone someone as repected as FC.

    P.S. ant, see? If he'd kept this private, arm-chair psychologists wouldn't be posting. It was like airing dirty laundry or something.

    -Bridget
     
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  6. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    Mirai should look for a new coach. It's obvious that Frank is fed up with her. Otherwise, why would he release such negative comments to Hersh of all people.

    Orser would be a good choice for her IMO if she doesn't mind moving to Toronto. He has a lassei faire approach that might accomodate Mirai better. She could do well commercially as well if she performs in shows with Rippon who seem to be popular in Japan.
     
  7. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    When I was a high school swimmer, my high school swimming pool was undergoing maintenance during a winter break, so we trained at a site where a year round club trained. During our practice, for some odd reason, my flip turns were consistently bad. A coach from the year round club that was observing our practice stopped me and told my to stop letting my ass hit the wall. It worked, and he was not even my coach.


    :rofl: OH THE IRONY . . . TOO EASY!!!

    So are you saying that Mirai would have responded better to "I don't understand that at all... Jesus (?)" in the Kiss and Cry from the other coach that had a most recent singles OGMist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  8. Nekatiivi

    Nekatiivi Well-Known Member

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    I watched Mirai's free skate and it was not as bad as I thought from the comments. Anyway it was true that eventhought Mirai landed her jumps she for some reason gace up on spins. I think one needs to bee scolded for that. I don't think Frank was mean to her, I think he was just so dissapointed with her and ypu could hear it from his voice. But what he said was absolutely true and I think personality types like Mirai need that kind of feedback. Sympathy is no good when you know that it is your own fault. At the end of her program Mirai did not fight, she gave up. Mirai's personality type is not well suited for a professional athleat and it just something what will take work through her career.
     
  9. geod2

    geod2 New Member

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    That's the essence of it...."praise in public, condemn in private"....

    Why?... Because it's the right thing to do and the right way to behave.

    Oddly, all the eventual attention in the K&C was on Frank....WTF??
     
  10. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    No, what I'm saying is that its fine to have mid-level skaters, but at least help them improve from year to year. I get that Gong and Gonzales and Ten are not as naturally gifted as Mirai- but surely he can get Gong to emote and express music more than she did in every FS I've seen her skate this season. How can you watch that Salome and not compare it to Kwan's and see that she is skating as if the music isn't even there...and say, OK there's a major problem here, we need to fix this! That program was a travesty. Same for many of his other mid-pack skaters. It just seems like, similar to Tom Z, he is getting them to a certain point but not really getting them to their very best. Except Flatt and Bradley only very recently, but I get the feeling that was more self-inspired due to years of frustration of being so-so. I think he's lost his magic touch that he had in the 80s and 90s. Even with Lysacek, most of those programs were totally uninspiring save for the fact that Evan was so technically strong. I know he's not a choreographer, but I think he'd steer people more in the right direction with that stuff. But, whatever, just my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  11. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    I think Mirai and Frank will be fine. They both praise one another plenty. It isn't going to be another Goebel/Carroll incident.

    Side Note: If there was one person I wanted an autograph or picture from this weekend, it was Frank. No luck though :)
     
  12. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Yes, he did get hit before and IIRC it bled. I don't blame him for being mad.

    And Mirai most certainly does not need a new coach. She's improved dramatically under Frank Carroll's tutelage. She did blow it and they both knew it. Moreover, she's made the same mistake several times now. She's a self-admitted slacker in practice. Her parents are paying big bucks for her to be an elite skater. It's time she either puts in the time or tells them to save that money for their retirement. I don't see anybody criticizing Orser for being visibly mad with Adam after that short program which he knew just cost them a trip to worlds. Adam nails that jump time after time and blew it when it counted.

    I crack up at people who think skaters should be treated like porcelain or fragile babies. Ever sat in on a high school locker room after you blew a big game? Or ridden the bus back home? These are elite athletes not 6 year olds playing t-ball who get a a prize even when you're terrible.
     
  13. Blair

    Blair New Member

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    Maybe I haven't heard the whole quote, but if all everyone is reacting to is Frank saying "I'm sorry you gave it away" this is a bit of an over-reaction.

    Elite athletes usually have enormous egos that are capable of standing up to a harsh critique from the coach who trains them day-in day-out. I suspect Mirai went to Frank precisely for the kind of tough approach he uses. Refer to Manon Perron/Joannie Rochette relationship. That woman was HARD on her, and she loved her for it.

    Frank apparently adores this kid too and I'm sure he has lots of brownie points stored up with her to cash out on a rainy day.

    Edited to add: I also don't know many people over 70 who like to be pelted unexpectedly.
     
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  14. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    I coached competitive speakers for years and taught kids this age. Most 17 year olds who have been seriously competing in anything know when they have not given their best performance. And they don't usually want tea and sympathy in the immediate aftermath. They want honesty. If I said to a competitor immediately after they blew all their lines in duet acting at district, "oh, well, you tried, it will be better next time", 90% of them would say "what next time? I just blew it and ended the season" then brush me off.

    I had a kid blow the last line of a play at a one-act competition one year. He stood silent on stage for 30 seconds. It was awful. The cast came off and the maternal part of me wanted to hug him and tell him it was okay. But he was an 18 year old senior who had been competing for all of high school in drama and speech. He knew it wasn't okay. He looked at me and said, "I blew it." So I said, "yeah, but you won't do it again". If it had been districts, it would have ended the season and I would have probably just said "yeah."

    They aren't babies and their self esteem will survive.
     
  15. flyingsit

    flyingsit Well-Known Member

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    Every skater needs something different in the K&C, and the coach knows what will have the most effect long-term on that particlar skater. Let's not forget that the coach is their COACH, not their parent. The goal of the coach is to make them a better skater. The goal of the PARENT is to give the unconditional support, the hugs, the "it'll be OK no matter what."
     
  16. TracyF

    TracyF New Member

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    This is true. I'm not having any real trouble with what Frank said, honestly; but it's one thing not to pull punches when you're one-on-one, coach to skater. It's another to do it publicly.
     
  17. modern_muslimah

    modern_muslimah Thinking of witty user title and coming up blank

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    I love Mirai but I don't get all the bashing of Frank Carroll and what he did in the K&C. Mirai blew it in the LP and she knew it. Why should Carroll sugar coat it and say "it's ok"? He supports her and congratulates her when she does well. As for what he said to Hersh, this unfortunately, isn't the first time a coach has lamented her work ethnic. If she only started to buckle down three weeks prior to Nationals, then that would explain why her LP looked so unsteady.

    I don't see them parting ways. It seems like Mirai is use to his tough love and it also seems that she knows she needs it. Frank can only do so much. Mirai has the talent but she also needs to put in the work.
     
  18. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai hasn't been with Frank for very long. If the nastyness between them continues into next season, then she should get a new coach. But, making a change now after she didn't have the best season could be seen as a bit of a musical coaches move. It would almost seem like the Caroline Zhang situation. So I say she give it some more time and if things get sour then maybe she will change coaches over the summer or after next season, but not now.
     
  19. LuckyCharm

    LuckyCharm Well-Known Member

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    Because she's a wittle Amewican pwincess and if he's mean it might make her cry and that would be the worst thing ever.:wuzrobbed:drama:
     
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  20. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    The important thing is that she seems to be doing way better with Frank than she did with her previous coach, who couldn't seem to get a handle on her. Didn't Charlene have a problem with getting Mirai to follow her instructions?
     
  21. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mirai cries all the time so I don't think it would be taken too seriously, actually. More likely people would just think she's an emotional wreck rather than that Frank is too mean to her.
     
  22. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    There are National Champions and former National Champions (ie Flatt) who have tried as hard as they can to emote. They have gotten instruction, chosen costumes they like, chosen music they love. They put in all this effort and other people do not see it.

    ETA: You really answered your own question.

    All top coaches have issues like this, but they are top coaches because they can get results at all. Furthermore, yes, some are "self-inspired", that is it is natural and can't be forced. Some have it while some don't.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  23. LuckyCharm

    LuckyCharm Well-Known Member

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    You know, I'd almost forgotten about Mirai's crybaby ways. She really seems to have grown out of that. I imagine Frank is at least partially responsible for that change.
     
  24. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    She's not a crybaby anymore I wouldn't say, she's just openly emotional. The commentators always talk about how she wears her heart on her sleeve, she's just an extroverted personality.
     
  25. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    There have been a number of times when he's told her not to cry in the K&C, that she'd live to skate another day, that it's ok nobody died etc after rough LP's. He's done an excellent job of getting her to keep things in perspective as well as reign in her emotions IMO.

    As to Frank holding fire and letting her have it backstage and playing all smiley huggable coach for the cameras, well yeah perhaps in an ideal world, but it sure does make things a heck of a lot more interesting for us when it's played out like this. :lol:

    Just watched Adam's SP and Brian chewing him out after - which no one seems to be making too much of a fuss about but I guess it's ok 'cos Adam's a man and he can take it whereas Mirai is America's next ice princess and should be treated accordingly :drama: It's sports, this is what happens.
     
  26. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

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    Do you think she has the potential of building a good rapport with her fans? Both Sasha and Michelle weren't that emotional and didn't have the tendency to say the silly little things on their mind.
     
  27. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think Carroll has shown in the past that he won't tolerate emotionally fragile skaters indefinitely. He fired Bowman, Chin, and Goebel. I think he feels that if he can't help them win why waste his time and reputation and their money.

    Fratianne, Kwan, and Lysacek were extremely tough mentally and I think he was able to accept that they couldn't be perfect all of the time and be supportive for that reason.

    As far as elite coaches being warm and fuzzy, I think that is a PR fabrication. Elite coaches and competitors must be driven and ambitious to succeed. We saw how quickly the fangs came out on both Orser and Kim the first time their reputations were challenged.

    As far as tolerating less talented middle-of-the road skaters, they don't take nearly as much of his time as an international competitor does. And as another poster pointed out he can't depend on his elite skaters for his living. They can quit him as well.
     
  28. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Finally!

    My sources claim that this is exactly what Frank is like. At least some skaters feel that way about him.

    Nobody is perfect and nobody's approach is going to work for everyone.

    It is very annoying to see Frank (or anybody else for that matter) being venerated and any criticism of him being immediately shouted down.

    Also, the way he spoke to Denis Ten after his absolutely disastrous five fall FS at Skate America was just :huh:.

    In the K&C you need to show support to your skater, regardless of what happened. Obviously some criticism and analysis of what happened is necessary but do it later, when the emotions have subsided and both you and your skater have calmed down.

    Everybody should be treated with kindness and respect.

    And football/soccer/basketball/volleyball/etc. coaches who think that SHOUTING at their players is the only way to get their message across are idiots and should do their Psychology 101.

    And what is the point of saying that to her then? You think she didn't know? What constructive purpose is it going to achieve other than kicking somebody who already is down?

    Orser was a total knob too. And it's not the first time.

    When Adam imploded back during GP, Orser had absolutely no clue how to deal with it.

    Adam was really stunned and just kept repeating "I don't understand what happened" and Orser looked visibly uncomfortable, showed negative body language to Adam and didn't engage with him at all.

    It was just embarrassing. All coaches should go through at least minimal sport psychology training or at least pick a freakin' book or two.

    The choice isn't between either being strict and nasty or too lenient.

    You can maintain discipline whilst at the same time being there for your skaters when it matters.

    And discipline doesn't mean shouting at people or telling them they sucked. Discipline should be maintained through consistency and respect.

    Manon Perron is a perfect example of a coach who was extremely strict but never behaved in ways mentioned in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  29. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    I just watched the video and didn't really see anything wrong with what Frank said. Mirai knows what she needed to do, and her and Frank work together all the time. It's not as if it was some stranger coming up and saying that to her, who knew nothing of what training she's gone through, etc. They know one another well enough.

    Meh.
     
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  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Frank coached Christopher Bowman from 1973-74 (6 years old) to 1991, including taking him to drug rehab in the late 80s. That's hardly lack of investment.

    Chin's mom left for greener pastures after Frank took Tiffany all the way to a Jr. World Championship.

    Goebel wanted a coach more like the coach he ended his career with rather than Frank, but Frank still coached him to Olympic Bronze and World Silver before Tim left.
     
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