Minimum Total Technical Scores for 2012-13 ISU Championships (including Jr Worlds)

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. allezfred

    allezfred Mince Pie Depriving Admin Staff Member

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    The ISU do have the option to change the minimum scores during the season so it's going to be a moving goalpost.
     
  2. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Ladies and gentlemen, let us pray:

    May the ISU have the sense to change this minimum TES rule to something more achievable.

    Lord, I realize that this may be a very difficult request, since it first requires the ISU to be infused with a minimum of sense, something they have none of.

    Amen.
     
  3. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Ay-MEN!
     
  4. MissIzzy

    MissIzzy Active Member

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    In fact, from their reaction on Twitter, the skaters don't necessarily object to the Euros/4CC scores. It's the high Worlds score that's the problem.
    Though I do think if Worlds approaches with only twelve entries qualified in any discipline, the ISU will give in an lower that minimum. They're idiots, not insane.
     
  5. SkaterMate

    SkaterMate New Member

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    In dance, 23 teams already have the minimum score.
    Of these 23 teams only 19 would be eligible for worlds, due to the country allocation limits. (eg. Russia has 5 teams with the minimum score, but only 3 places in worlds 2013)

    This minimum score has created an odd scenario, the following countries made the top 25 in worlds 2012, but don't have a team eligible for worlds 2013

    China (12)!!
    Japan (24),
    Spain (19),
    Azerbaijan (17),
    Australia (20),
    Yet, the following country didn't make the top 25, but has a team elligible

    Finland (28)

    Since 20 teams would be enough to hold the dance competition, I can't imagine this score being lowered, more likely it will be raised when many teams get inflated marks at B internationals, especially towards the end of the season. I can imagine the politics flying at these B internationals now, as the smaller Féderations try to get their teams into worlds.

    ICE DANCE

    Canada
    1 Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE
    2 Nicole ORFORD / Thomas WILLIAMS
    3 Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR

    Finland
    4 Olesia KARMI / Max LINDHOLM

    France
    5 Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT
    6 Tiffany ZAHORSKI / Alexis MIART

    United Kingdom

    7 Penny COOMES / Nicholas BUCKLAND

    Germany
    8 Nelli ZHIGANSHINA / Alexander GAZSI
    TANJA KOLBE / STEFANO CARUSO

    Hungary
    9 Zsuzsanna NAGY / Mate FEJES

    Italy
    10 Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE
    Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI
    11 Lorenza ALESSANDRINI / Simone VATURI

    Lithuania

    12 Isabella TOBIAS / Deividas STAGNIUNAS

    Russia
    13 Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV
    Ekaterina PUSHKASH / Jonathan GUERREIRO
    Ekaterina RIAZANOVA / Ilia TKACHENKO
    14 Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV
    15 Victoria SINITSINA / Ruslan ZHIGANSHIN

    Ukraine
    16 Siobhan HEEKIN-CANEDY / Dmitriy DUN

    USA
    17 Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE
    18 Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI
    19 Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to fact-check your entire post, but this one jumped out when I went down the list.

    According to their ISU page, their ISU Personal Best in the Short Dance is 36.94 from a Junior Grand Prix event in 2010. Their TES in the Short Dance there was 20.33, far below the required 29.00. More recently, they received a TES of 23.40 for their Short Dance at the 2012 Bavarian Open. As a Senior "B," that later score would count if it were high enough, but it isn't.

    Are you sure you applied the proper criteria (which are mentioned at the top of the thread)?

    And a few words of advice to all of you who care about the World Championships: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--hMJPUBwMc :scream:
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  7. SkaterMate

    SkaterMate New Member

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    Yes, I was very, very thorough, mainly thanks to this wonderful Japanese site
    http://deep-edge.net/wsd.php?id=12522

    You will find they got the score at the Palva Romana memorial in Olomouc-

    http://krasoolomouc.websnadno.cz/zavod/index.htm

    .. which is what I was referring to when I mentioned jumped up marks in the later B internationals!! Just look how many got the minimum tech scores in this comp, no politiks here lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the top 6 got the FD minimum, and 3 teams got the SD minimum. It looks like the SD is going to be the hardest to get, as couples such as France's Jones/Caronn failed to get the minimum all season, despite finishing 7th in Europeans.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    What SkaterMate posted shows another problem.

    Calling and judging at B-Internationals is often much less strict, as the Pavel Roman Memorial results prove.

    Whilst I am not going to complain about it, if it gives skaters a chance to earn the scores, it's unfair when the playing field is not level and it's a case of being lucky with the calling and judging team.

    Fair enough.

    And this solution would be much better than simply excluding "not good enough" skaters from participation entirely.

    Yeah, I keep hoping that setting the scores that high was a way of terrifying the federations into accepting that they need to either pay their share or accept preliminary rounds and that ISU is going to lower the scores whilst preparing those changes for next congress.
     
  9. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Im getting ready for all those Chanflation Scores that will be
    given at Nebelhorn, Golden Spin or Merano Cup :lol:
     
  10. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Here's a thought, maybe ISU has decided to give "even" more generous GOEs so skaters could get to that minimum TES scores.
     
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Well maybe the ISU didn't but the judges probably will now. :wall:
     
  12. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    As I see it, (and I am really sorry that you will not like it), this is a competition. This should be for the best in the world. I do understand how much it means for you to represent your country at Worlds, and I do appreciate how much effort you have put in it. Saying that, I would still rather watch only 6 US skaters, 6 Japanese skaters and 6 Russian skaters (that's just an example) if they were the best in the world, rather than watching 1-3 from each country when some of the skaters sometimes clearly don't have the ability (yet) to land the jumps/do the difficult spins/don't have the presentation etc. I know that some people believe that sport should be 'inclusive' and prefer watching 1-3 skaters from each country rather than the best in the world, but other people (myself included) would prefer seeing the boundaries of the sport pushed to maximum. And the way to do it is in my view allow the best of the best compete against each other without looking at their country of origin. I think it is wrong if some athletes consider the nationals in their country more difficult than World championship. That should not happen.

    Also, you wrote about the effort you made, tears, blood and sweat; I am really sorry that the skating conditions in the UK are not better and that there is not much support from NISA, but other skaters from the poorer countries made it too. You mentioned Verner - I am pretty sure that he was not funded by his skating federation either until he started having results. The conditions in the Czech Republic are actually much worse than in the UK (and I know that for sure. Most rinks close over the summer, and ice hockey always gets priority on the ice at most rinks). It is definitely harder than if you lived in the USA, Canada, or Russia, but this is sport. Unfortunately, sport doesn't reward the effort. It rewards the performance, the results. It is not about how hard you tried, but whether you delivered. I know it is harsh.
     
  13. vexlak

    vexlak Member

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    We are writing about world championship. If the sport would like to survive, it has to open the doors not slamming it shut. It's the ratings that matters. I am not sure what ISU had in mind, but if this is only resolution to the qualification rounds elimination, than its purely though trough.
    :wall:
     
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    That may be the way to go, but the current cost-slashing solution is to have neither all of the best in the world regardless of country nor much inclusion.
     
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I think we need to look at those minimums with an eye on the wording about moving the standard up or down as needed to yield the desired number of entrants. Looking at Worlds, for example, there are 30 slots for the ladies singles. If fewer than 30 have met the standard, I read the ISU communication as saying they will lower it to allow the next highest scores in. Conversely, if too many skaters meet the qualifying minimums, the ISU raises the number, so the qualifiers drop out starting with the lowest qualifying score. Think what a mess that would be. A skater goes along all season thinking they have a qualifying score only to learn a couple weeks before the event that the standard has been raised. My guess is they set the standards so high in the first place to make sure this last scenario does not happen.
     
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  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I know, I don't agree with those ridiculously high qualifying scores either. My post was reaction on ice_sk8r's post. It seemed to me that ice_sk8r's post suggested that some skaters should be sent to Worlds because they put a lot of effort into the sport and because the skating conditions in their countries are not as good. This is sport and things like effort and conditions in your country are not counted. Life is not fair. Where would we draw the line? For example, if a skater is injured and misses 3 months of training, should they reward the skater at the following competition extra 5-10 points to make up for the lost training to make it more fair?
     
  17. ice_sk8r

    ice_sk8r New Member

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    Just to clarify, I'm totally for a minimum technical score, I just don't think it should be so astronomical that only a select few countries can achieve it. In order to compete at Worlds I think the score should be attainable with a short program based on requirements, 2 triples, a 2A and level 2/3 spins. A long program should have about 4-5 triples to be acceptable for World level not 8. Of course some of you may disagree with this but that's my opinion.

    I don't like the fact that components aren't being factored into it either, it's showing people that skating is all about the elements. There are some skaters I'd much rather watch just skating around and performing without any jumps but I guess now a lot of skaters will be packing their programs with technical difficulty to get the scores. I'm praying the scores for worlds get lowered sooner, rather than later!
     
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Your criteria would be higher than mine :)

    I think if there was an ISU-controlled equivalent of a technical panel for PCS, they would be.
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The conditions in the Czech Republic are better than in the UK. There's a huge number of ice rinks (as a result of ice hockey being so popular) and not all of them close for the summer. Also training figure skating is very expensive in the UK and it's much much cheaper in the Czech Republic. Czech athletes receive very limited funding but believe it or not more than the British ones.

    And if we applied everything you said, we should just close figure skating down in the vast majority of the countries. ISU governs an Olympic, amateur sport and not professional sport, though. It shouldn't be all about the money.

    Yes, that's what it should be like IMO.

    I would be fine if the SP minimum score was 2axel, 3toe/2toe, 3salchow and spins and steps at least Lv1 (given there's levels 0-4 now) all performed to GOE 0.

    And FS score was two 3toes, two 3salchows, two 2axels and all non jump elements at least Lv1 all performed to GOE 0.

    Maybe raise it a little for the men.

    Having said that, I'd be even happier if they just made the federations pay their teams' expenses and went back to the previous minimum scores to ensure maximum participation.
     
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  20. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    I agree.
     
  21. Hanna

    Hanna Wheeeeeeeeeee

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    I agree with this. :( But I do understand it's nearly impossible to take them into consideration as playing with the PCS mark is much easier than TES. However, by having such a high TES standard, it is sort of sending a message that you need to have a very high level of technical difficulty. This can easily end up in programs with no choreography and interpretation as well as weakened basic skating because everyone is just focusing on getting the TES score.

    So even though it would be hard to set a minimum PCS standard for skaters, the ridiculously high TES minimum (for Worlds) already emphasizes that it's the technical difficulty that counts. A lower TES minimum would allow more room for focusing on PCS.
     
  22. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    That would be a fair request and I think the most should agree with this. To put it so hight is just unfair as the competitions standard at B-level isn't comparable to GP level.

    Besides, have you noticed, or has ISU, that Kiira Korpi didn't met the worlds FS minimum in TES winning silver medal at Euros last year?
    I understand it is difficult to have some PCS requirement, so a minimum TES is the way to do it. But common ...

    I know the Euros - 4CC minimum is lower and I'm OK with it. You could put it a few points higher for worlds if necessary, say 2 or 3 points higher for example, but not more.

    I love to see a lot of skaters and enjoy the days at competition when I manage to go, and when not I'm lowing to see so many skaters as possible on TV. Some skaters are really beautiful to see, besides they have only fewer jumps. It's figure skating not jumping competition
     
  23. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you are right. Trust me, I used to live there for 25 years, and I can compare with the UK because I am living here now. The majority of rinks in the Czech Republic is closed in the summer. Not all of them, but most of them do. In the UK most of them remains open all year round.

    It is extremely difficult to get ice in the Czech Republic, because hockey is considered to have higher priority. As a result, there is not enough training ice, getting 1:1 is not as frequent, you mostly learn in group. In the UK, you mostly have 1:1, in group you only learn the completely basic course Learn to skate.

    And the price, yes, in the Czech republic it is cheaper, but at the same time, they earn much less. So If you are comparing it for someone who earns in the UK and skate in the Czech Republic, it would appear extremely cheap, but if you look at it from the perspective of an average Czech salary, it is not as cheap as you think.

    There is a reason why every Czech skater who gets more successful (Verner, Brezina) trained in Obertsdorf.

    And I never said that British athlete gets some amount of funding. What I said was, the Czech athletes are not getting it (until he/she gets to the complete top) and if some Czech skaters could make it (Verner, Brezina), athletes from the poorer countries obviously have a chance. Yes, they have it harder, but in any competition in any sport the athletes will never start on the same level. One will always be richer, other one perhaps more talented, other will be from country who is more supportive...
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  24. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I would agree with that. But then again some will argue that it is so expensive that it keeps the people from poorer countries out...so it is not very inclusive solution either.
     
  25. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Seriously? Are you talking about a senior man doing only 2 triples and 2A in the SP and 4-5 triples in the FS? Or did you mean ladies? I don't think I would bother to buy a ticket to go watching that! Even junior ladies are now doing seven triples FS now, and they have shorter program.
     
  26. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    The question is, does the sport exist for the participants or for the spectators?

    I hope we could all agree that the majority of figure skating is for the athletes.

    At a certain point -- and IMO that point should be where the skaters are earning more money from skating than they are spending on training -- the spectators' needs may become more important than the skaters'.

    The ISU is in the business of governing an international sport with participants from novice level up to the very best in the world.

    They can earn more money from outside if, as part of their mission, they produce an entertainment product that appeals to general audiences who are only interested in seeing the best in the world. Such events will be easier to sell tickets to and to sell broadcast rights for.

    (Broadcast rights for countries who have some good but not great participants is another wrinkle)

    There are different levels of international competition that the ISU sanctions or holds its own events in. Obviously not every skater who is good enough to merit competing internationally is good enough to merit competing at Worlds.

    So where do they draw the line for each kind of competition. How do they draw the lines?

    One set of lines is drawn based on age, similar to racing sports (which the ISU also governs on ice).

    Another set of lines is drawn based on nationality, with skaters representing national federations that are entitled to send a maximum number of skaters to various events. This has long meant that just being old enough and good enough to compete with the best doesn't guarantee participation, when federations have to choose among too many good-enough skaters.

    A third set of lines is drawn based on skill level, as reflected by different requirements for the programs at novice, junior, senior level. Minimum technical scores is another new way of measuring the minimum skill level needed to be eligible for some high-profile international events -- the ones where paying audiences and networks expect to have a say.

    Should that line be drawn so high that even some skaters who could be considered among the best in the world don't make the cut? Should it be drawn low enough that anyone who is a credible senior-level skater is qualified by skill level for senior events and then they have to fight it out among others at about the same level for spots in the final round at Worlds? That tension seems to be going back and forth as a result of the expense of providing for large numbers of entrants and their attendant national teams.

    Obviously it's hard to balance all the competing needs and expenses/income streams.

    I hope they can find a way to work it out so that the maximum number of amateur athletes who have demonstrated worthiness of competing at junior or senior level get to participate in the most prestigious events at those respective levels.
     
  27. Oz_sk8ting_mum

    Oz_sk8ting_mum New Member

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    Well it will be interesting to see if Australia is represented at worlds and Junior Worlds in the future. I fear for the sport in this country.

    For our skaters to attend any ISU event in an effort to gain the score we have to travel across the world at huge expense even if our skaters can meet the required score at an ISU event, for most it's a decision on should you train O/S or should you attend a comp.
    If this is going to be enforced then give us some comps that we can attend with out the requirement of taking out a second mortgage.

    This is a case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.:(
     
  28. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I assume you are talking ladies here. I didn't run the numbers for the free skate, but the standard you propose for the SP is actually higher than the value needed for Europeans and 4CC under the new rule (20 pts). Using the two easiest triples and base values (no + or - GOE), your suggestion would become a SP TES of 21.9 (all level 2) to 24 (all Level 3).

    The problem, from the ISU's POV, is that standard would leave too many qualifiers for Worlds. How would you propose to get the field down to 30 without going back to using qualifying rounds?

    There is no question that the challenge of posting qualifying scores is much bigger for countries not in Europe. (Until recently, all the ISU sanctioned Senior B events were there.) IMO, the ISU needs to address this disparity in opportunity, maybe by helping smaller federations with travel or by underwriting the cost of hosting more Senior B events outside of Europe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  29. sammyf

    sammyf Well-Known Member

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    It seems to be getting better for UK skaters.

    http://www.iceskating.org.uk/node/5498
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I'm sure that these aren't the only possibilities, but two are:

    After Euros/4C's or a Senior B that is finished by the end of February, they could make the TES cut-off the Top 30 combined TES for SP/SD and FS/FD, not counting scores where there are more participants from a country than that country has spots. For example, if Japan has three spots and seven skaters in the Top 30, they'd go down at least another four. If a country doesn't have enough qualifying skaters for the number of spots, the spot could go back into the pool, and they could go down the list for the next highest combined score. Or they could create a minimum in advance, and if there aren't enough, fill from the next highest on the list where there are spots available until they get the number of spots. Practically speaking, this is the same as lowering the minimum later in the season.

    Alternately, they could also assign a mid-winter Senior B as a qualifier for the skaters who didn't meet the higher minimum, like they do Nebelhorn for Olympics, and take as many that they need to get to 30. It would guarantee a solid field with enough competitors from enough nations to the Senior B.