Minimum Total Technical Scores for 2012-13 ISU Championships (including Jr Worlds)

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. seabm7

    seabm7 Member

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    I agree. It was Korean coaches who helped Yuna to learn all the basics including triple jumps up to Lutz. These coaches were former athletes representing Korea at Worlds and Olympics.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  2. Hanna

    Hanna Wheeeeeeeeeee

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    This. :( Hopefully it's not going to result in boring programs where all the focus is reaching the required TES and choreography and interpretation is lacking. I'd also hate to see a decrease in basic skating skills.

    The situation sucks unbelievably much. :(
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  3. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    All the skaters who competed at Worlds in March were deemed to be strong enough then. And now they are being told they are not. They are being told they have to chase a certain numbers of points this season and if too many of them get it then the total will be arbitrarily raised midway through the season. I do not know of any other sport that works that way.

    The other problematic issue is that Worlds next year is the main de facto Olympic qualifier. Again I do not know of any other sports where federations are effectively shut out of taking part in the main Olympic qualifying competitions.
  4. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Only 18 singles skaters qualify for the Olympics through Worlds. They vast majority, if not all of the skaters who would qualify spots for their country, are the ones who should not have an issue earning a minimum score.

    There are no minimums for Senior B's, and the Olympic qualifier is a Senior B. It's likely that there will be a minimum score requirement for the Olympics, but I don't think even the Worlds minimums are harder to attain than some of the NOC requirements,and the Euros/4C's minimums aren't.

    As far as telling skaters that suddenly they're not good enough for Worlds, that's nothing new: there were skaters who were told that when the first minimum score requirements were added two years ago.
  5. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Isn't it 24 for singles, 19 for dance and 16 for pairs? :confused:

    There is a huge difference between the minimum score that was set two years ago and the new one for Worlds. It is going to have a devastating effect on the elite skating programmes of developing figure skating nations.
  6. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

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    I dunno. I would think its kind of devastating to go all the way to worlds just to get cut after prelims. This way, skaters are saved from this fate. It is tough, but sport is tough. I think it will be ok. Hopefully it encourages big countries to send a greater variety of skaters to senior B comps in the interest of having more meet the minimum score. And it would have been interesting to see Kaetlyn Osmond skate at Worlds. If the National champ can't earn that minimum score but someone else from her country can, maybe that someone else was the better choice all along... :slinkaway

    I don't think we'll see the minimum score raised halfway through the season unless there's dozens more skaters reaching it than spots in the FS at Worlds.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  7. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Going to be the minority here, but thank you, ISU. Not having any patriotic or personal feelings towards the skaters from the small countries I'm bored ouf ot my skin watching the skaters' desperate attempts to land a 2T and failing. If I only get to see Russian/Japanese/USA/Canadian skaters with an occasional Spanish/French/German/whatever - fine. But at least I don't get to sit through 50 ladies SPs wondering whether I'm a masochist or something wrong with the rules.
  8. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    It is far worse not to have the chance to go to Worlds in the first place.

    Skaters from different countries have different expectations from a World Championships. A lot of Americans felt Alissa Czisny's performance at Worlds was a disaster whereas Clara Peters qualifying for the SP was a major achievement for Irish figure skating and a news story that peaked interest in the story here. With probably no skater at Worlds next year we're not going to have that kind of exposure for the sport.
  9. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Perhaps you should avoid Worlds then and just watch the GPF. ;)
  10. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    Unfortunately you are not in the minority, at least on this forum. But it shows how bad it is to this sport, when even the "Fans" want to ban the skaters from competing, and these comments gives the ISU even more support for there damaging rules and ideas. Its just sad.

    If i would be a skater from a small federation, i would have no motivation to continue, because its just impossible to make this high minimum score, and its not the same to compete at a senior B, which nobody wants to watch, or even at Euros/4CC. The World Championships are completely different.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
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  11. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily, because maybe the national champion is a better skater and deservedly consistently has a larger advantage in PCS than the one who earned the minimum score has in TES.

    Of course with any system, sometimes the best skater in the country is not the one who has the best day at nationals.

    But what if the best skater does have a good day at nationals and easily earns the minimum there (even accounting for generous callers and inflated GOEs at nationals) but didn't have a good day technically at the international competitions?

    Euros/4Cs would be another chance to earn the scores for Worlds . . . unless the skater doesn't even already have the international score needed to gain entry there.


    I don't think quality of skating skills per se will decrease significantly because skaters still need to have the skill level to execute the elements successfully -- especially level 3+ step sequences.

    But the other components might get shoved to bottom priority by skaters who need to focus on executing the elements

    E.g., at senior B and even GP events we might see a big difference in approach between skaters who are there trying to earn minimum TES so they can qualify for a bigger event later in the season vs. skaters who have already done so and are there trying to win the competition they're competing in now.
  12. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    That's what I've been doing for several years :p

    If it was up to me I would ban the skaters who represent a country they don't actually live in, don't speak the local language and probably havent been into at all. While I don't mind watching skaters like Katz, Peters, Lee etc I do mind wasting time on skaters like Bychenko, and well, 90% of the ladies in the 4CC - those who can't make it through their local rink comepetition and end up representing other countries. It seems that most of the `small federations' are represented by those skaters anyway, so they might as well have their B competitions and not have a chance to make it to the worlds. It might make them consider twice whether to try representing a country like India or Israel or Azerbaidzhan knowing they don't stand a chance to make it to Euros/Worlds and the best they get is a B competition. May be, just may be, we'll get rid of those and then give the smaller federation a fairer chance. Yes, I realize skaters like Peters will get hurt on the way, but frankly, a skater who can't land a 3 jump and is still in the age to compete in JW perhaps should stick to JW.
  13. seabm7

    seabm7 Member

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    So you want to ban T & T as well? :confused:
  14. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    what's t&t?
  15. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    I dont see the imported skaters as a problem, they may can help to develope the sport in the respective country. Sure there are also negative examples, but the ISU cant control this with any rule, its up to the national federation which skater might represent their country.
    But to exclude the majority of ISU members from competing at the World Championships, this is definitely not the right way.

    Clara Peters is a very good example to make Figure skating more popular. Her possibilities are very limited, but she really tries to do the best, even she can land only double jumps. She really enjoys to compete and she shows that in her programs, i love to watch her! She wouldnt have such a great success if she would have been excluded from the big Championships. I prefer to watch skaters from small federations who try their best at Worlds, than the 5th best american or japanese skater.
    It is still called the World Championships, and it is normal that there are much more skaters competing and not only the best 20 from maybe 5 countries. It should be reachable for every country in the world.
  16. seabm7

    seabm7 Member

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    Takahashi and Tran. I was in a hurry, so I just wrote their initials. My bad. :)
  17. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    I always assumed Takahashi was from Japan, spoke Japanese, learned to skate in Japan etc. Forgive me if I got it all wrong.

    Coming from one of those countries - in theory it all looks nice, in practice it means that instead of attempting to grow something in the country the federation keeps importing useless skaters and sending them to the competitions rather than equally useless local. It is much easier to import a skate who will train anyway (on their parents expense!) in the USA than invest in the fasilities in the country. The ice rink in Israel used to function far better when the centre of the skating was in Israel. Ever since it shifted to the USA I don't see anyone skating in Metulla. Sure, it all began with the imported skaters such as Shmerkin and Chait/Sakhnovski, but there were things that were happening here (Zarertskis, Katz, Krasnopolski, Bugrov) till the import became much more appealing (Bychenko, Syken, Serov, Bardakova etc)

    Can you give me one example of the positive example? Seriously, I can think of Israel, Azerbaidzhan, Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan etc.

    There is a huge number of the skaters who shouldn't be there at the first place...

    Your right. I don't enjoy it one little bit. Peters is fine when there is just Peters. When there are 20 skaters on Peter's level the whole competition becomse one happy tea break.
    As for Peters - she was born in 1991 and 've been cometing in the seniors level since 2008. What do the rules say? Till when she could compete in Juniors?
    Exactly. Not 30 Americans and 20 Russians representing the rest of the world. Since right now it's the case - we might as well give up watching 15 of them
  18. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Takahashi is. Tran, however, is Canadian, has never lived in Japan and does not speak the language.

    The coach thought it was important that a skater of Asian heritage partner with Takahashi , becauses the look would be "right". Apparently it has fooled some, as Tran is very much an "import" skater.


    I think as long as the skaters who hop citizenship do make an effort to develop the sport in the country they adopt, it is actually a good thing. If they never travel to the country at all, and do nothing to help others, then I am against the practice. But honestly, having an adopted citizen who can help collect supplies, who can teach workshops, and who can give the country someone to cheer for (I think Amanda Evora said she never realized how much the Philippines was behind her in the Olympics, despite her skating for the US) really does support skating development.
  19. mazzy

    mazzy Active Member

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    That's an argument I never understood. Nobody's forcing you to watch the competition from start to finish and there is a seeding procedure to make sure you can skip the first groups.
  20. seabm7

    seabm7 Member

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    You are right. I should have said Tran of T & T, not both of them.

    Concerning Takahashi, she started as a single skater in Japan, then learned her basic pair skills in China while she lived there. She even competed at the 2004 Chinese Championships with a Chinese partner. She moved back to Japan and tried a Japanese partner, but it did not work out well. At the end, she found Tran in Canada and has been training in Canada.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  21. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I should have made that more clear and explained I was referring to the level of the skaters competing. For the most part a slightly off-peak Kostner, Takahashi, etc will still present a very high standard of skating. The way the ISU wants to limit Worlds to the top 18 skaters (or thereabouts), is also turning the event into a second GPF.
  22. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I can't speak for all of these, but for the record, Tamar Katz lived in Israel for an extended portion of her childhood. I mean, yeah, her reason for competing for Israel is a reason you'd probably dislike (she wanted to circumvent the US testing structure and she lived in Israel), but still--she is quite familiar with the country she represented!
  23. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Well, it all sounds great in theory. In practice those skaters can't be bothered flying half a way across the globe to give a workshop actually, to whom? The local kids don't necessarily speak English, the `star' doesn't speak the local language. The local kids will not bother attempting to land a 2T when they know they will never participate a single event anyway.

    Again, all those points above are great in theory, but in practice there are several `federations' with American/Russian skaters only. If this rule will eliminate those `federations' am all for it.
  24. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    Also, sorry for the double post, but I'm not into the concept of a minimum technical requirement (especially for JW!). I don't mind a minimum score (TES and PCS), but I mind the concept of a minimum tech score because it suggests that there's only one component to skating. It completely ignores a skater with strong artistic inclinations in favor of one who can jump or whatever, with zero regards towards the fact that the artistic skater perhaps had the higher overall score.

    A full-score minimum is something I'd agree with, maybe. But never at JW!
  25. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    What about the infamous Indian pair on the JGP? I wouldn't blame other coaches and teams if they'd rather not be on the same warm-up ice as someone who is a safety risk for the other skaters entered into an event. I am open to debating TES vs PCS -and especially what the requirements should be, but I see nothing wrong with having some min requirements. Problem is, the current Senior requirements for Worlds are anything but minimal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSV0Ei8GlsU
  26. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely correct, if skaters are not good enough they don't deserve be there. If only a few counties are represented so be it. 51 Ladies competing at last year’s World was really over the top. I can see why the ISU would want to trim the fat. They shouldn't have even bothered with the preliminary round. They shouldn't have got to go at all.

    I don't see it as fans or even the ISU and 'banning' skaters. Encouraging skaters should be done at the local level not from the top down from the bottom up. It’s not up to the ISU to bring skaters into local rinks and encourage them to skate, work hard and get better. I agree with the statement about who wants to watch someone (on a major network) who falls on a 2T? I see kids at my local rink who can do a 2T does that mean they should be allowed to go to Worlds? There needs to be some standard of excellence set in place.

    People in other threads already discuss how Olympic medalist should have never won and people want sub-par skaters to compete?
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    There is no equivalent of the technical panel for PCS or a separate judging panel for PCS. I think the reliance on TES is to emphasize the "athletic" side, which is considered more objective, especially WRT the Olympics, and it puts the criteria I partially in the hands that the ISU, rather than the Federations control. I think it's also a tacit way of admitting that PCS judging is inadequate.

    A lot of skating is demonstrated physically, by example, like ballet, and language is less of an issue. There's often a group effect in workshops, where one person who gets it explains to the others.

    Don't the Russian born skaters live in Israel? The same can't be said for many of the American skaters who've skated for other countries. If a Russian skater's family lived in Uzbekistan, why shouldn't that skater skate for Uzbekistan? Many skaters train in a country they don't live in, so training in Russia or the US isn't really meaningful.

    If a country doesn't have rinks and grassroots skating programs/a tradition of sending sickly kids to a rink, or decides like China to invest in a sport, training will be imported and there will be expat skaters.

    The old minimum scores knocked out a bunch of the low-level American skaters with family ties to small Federations.*

    Yes, sorry, 24 skaters, but from about 18 nations, since some have multiple entries, and they can hardly be called developing. There are as many single-entry spots earned at the Olympic qualifier as there are at the previous Worlds.

    Of the countries that qualify one skater at worlds, how many of those are truly developing? When Poykio was placing 12th at Worlds, earning one spot, there were two or three Finnish women in the top 10 at Euros. Finland wouldn't be considered a developing nation in singles.

    It's great that Spain has Javier Raya, but for every Spain, there's Georgia, which has tossed back Olympic, Worlds, and European slots, because there's no one to follow Gedevanishvili. There's a big difference between a developing nation, like Ireland, a nation that has an exceptional skater -- from more-or-less competitive like McCorkell to a phenom like Kim -- and a nation that has periods of great skaters and then goes fallow, like the British men.

    The chances for a truly developing nation to get a spot at the Olympics was very low even before there was a minimum score.


    Where are the elite figure skating programs in developing figure skating nations? In the 2003 Euros Program there was an article about an ISU program to help smaller European Federations develop their programs, and that was nearly a decade ago, with not many individual results to show for it. The new pairs and dance programs are targeted to where there is infrastructure and some tradition. While critical mass, government commitment and the ability to select from a great population, and/or wealth (personal or federation) don't guarantee success -- see Canadian Ladies, Chinese Ladies since Chen Lu, or Tobias -- they have been the dominant success factors that developing skating nations don't have.

    The developing skating nations are there to pay dues and vote, and if there's a phenom like Kim who can create a large and lucrative market, that's great, but I don't see the ISU betting on Ireland or Thailand, although I'm surprised they haven't targeted Hong Kong.

    When they had the figure skating TV money to develop figure skating, the ISU spent it to develop speed skating.
  28. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    So it's a big feck off and shut up? Charming. :rolleyes:
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    If the developing nations can't do anything with their votes that the Council can't undermine, then I don't understand why they bother.

    Pretty much everything the Council has decided or pushed through Congress has pointed to turning Worlds into an annual version of the Olympics.
  30. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It's not all about Israel, you know. ;)

    Did Tatiana Malinina and Roman Skorniakov ever actually live in Uzbekistan? Certainly, in the later stages of their careers, they were living in the United States.

    Quite a few Russians have represented Azerbaijan without actually living there.

    I'm not sure that Sergey Davydov or Julia Soldatova ever lived in Belarus. She might have, but I think he never did.
  31. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    It's all very nice, but the "fake Azerbajdzhanis" are not the target group of this rule. Moreover, the "Americans/Russians" are more likely to make the required minimum than the "local kids", so if anything, it would make more sense to enter the rent-a-Russian program in order to have any chance of having a skater at Worlds.

    European countries are going to be the first to take the blow, and with rare exception, they actually have locals representing them, all around from UK to Poland.
  32. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Aren't judging positions based on the results of their skaters? That would give a Federation more incentive to use an import than a local, even if there are issues with citizenship for the Olympics.
  33. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    I don't think so, but I would think that having a skater in the competition is a requirement. But then again, I might be wrong, and then again, if a country doesn't have a competitor, I think its interest in having a judge would be rather secondary.
  34. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I think some of the nations, especially ones where influential judges switched Federations, have more of an interest in their judges and officials :mitchell: than their skaters.

    ETA: If any nation with an entry could have a judge at Worlds, there are going to be out-of-work judges from nations whose skaters don't qualify.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  35. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Sure. That is assuming those skaters would bother getting to tshoe countries and assuming there is an ice rink

    Some. Zaretskis and Krasnopolski are. I doubt Bychenko spent more than a week of his life in Israel.

    No. But representing another country because you can't make it through your local rink competition without ever being to that country - that, I think, is wrong. I.e. taking Israel - am all for skaters like Katz or Krasnopolski representing Israel, am very much against skaters like Bychenko or Syken.
    And seriously, Azerbaidzhan? Zlobina? Sitnikov? Andreev? That American skater whose name I forgot... Give me a break...
  36. Leticia

    Leticia New Member

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    May I ask someone who is knowledgable, as to, if Kim yuna wants to competes at 2013 World, will she have to participate in GPs, or senior Bs? (or 4cc)
  37. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Joelle Forte?

    From Rule 109 in the ISU Constitution:
    This was added to the 2010 Constitution, and I always think of it as the Azerbaijan Rule. I thought there was some connection to Azerbaijan that either Zlobina or Sitnikov or the family of at least one had to be able to change federations, but they may have applied before June 2010, when Congress accepted the change.

    It doesn't happen that often, but there are instances of not being competitive in a/one home country and becoming very successful for another. Dianne de Leeuw grew up in California, but because she had Dutch citizenship, she was able to skip the entire qualifying process to become Dutch, European, and World champion and Olympic silver medalist. The Duschenays, who never made the senior podium in Canada -- it wasn't exactly a Soviet-like group of talent ahead of them -- switched from Canada to France for which they won a World title and medaled at Euros and Olympics. More recently, Contesti married into Italy and switched from France, after which he won a European silver medal, was Top 10 in all the Euros in which he competed (including once for France), and was Top 10 at Worlds in three of four attempts. (He didn't make it out of qualis in Moscow, skating for France.)

    Who knows what Zhulin will do for Zlobina/Sitnikov? They came in 10th at their first Euros.

    If there were local skaters who were getting robbed because an import had better politiks, then I could see the objection. Plus, singles have to sit out two years in any case, which is a pretty big sacrifice for a skater, and so did Zlobina/Sitnikov, since one wasn't already skating for Azerbaijan. Two years is a lot of time and money to train with little to show for it.

    Yes, unless the ISU grants an exception for her to compete at 4C's, like they did for Plushenko to skate this year at Euros. However, she can't argue that she was suffering serious injuries.

    She can get two GP's next year if she commits as a "come-back" skater. Depending on the new alternate rules (still to be published), she might be able to get an alternate "come-back" skater position instead of committing to two.
  38. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    :eek: OMG! I am glad to see that I could go and compete for India. I couldn't possibly do worse than that! Though I do feel sorry for the skaters. Why were they sent? Shouldn't their coach decide that they are not ready? I know that some people may think that it is a good learning experience, but I think I would be really embarrassed if I skated like that on JGP...although it obviously is not their fault.
  39. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I can see your point.
  40. vexlak

    vexlak New Member

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    so it looks that most of the skaters will have to participate in the B's, empty seated Euro arenas with no TV coverage. Only the big boys and girls from the big nations will be shown at the worlds (one of the few half way sold out events). That will for sure increase ratings and popularity of the sport. :wall: