Minimum Total Technical Scores for 2012-13 ISU Championships (including Jr Worlds)

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Jun 27, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Splitting these posts off from the ISU Congress thread into a new and separate thread for discussion:
    Good questions.

    From ISU Communication No. 1742, Decisions of the ISU Council:

    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  2. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering how raising the international standard from a technical level under IJS would work.

    With the 6.0 system, earning a 5.9 in 1991 for technical merit was different from getting one in 1987.

    Looking at the ladies' short program results alone from Four Continents this year, the minimum technical requirement alone would take out 13 of the 30 skaters entered.

    Was it 15.00 last year?
  3. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Changes are:

    Men:
    SP-From 20 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 25, 25% increase
    • Worlds: 35, 75% increase

    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 35 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 45, 29% increase
    • Worlds: 65, 86% increase

    New Juniors: 40

    Ladies:
    SP-From 15 to:
    Euros/4C's: 20, 33.3% increase
    Worlds: 28, 87% increase

    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 25 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 36, 44% increase
    • Worlds: 48, 92% increase

    New Juniors: 35

    Pairs:
    SP-From 17 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 20, 18% increase
    • Worlds: 28, 65% increase

    New Juniors: 20

    FS-From 30 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 36, 20% increase
    • Worlds: 45, 50% increase

    New Juniors: 30

    Dance:
    SD-From 17 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 18, 5% increase
    • Worlds: 29, 71% increase

    New Juniors: 17

    FD-From 27 to:
    • Euros/4C's: 28, 4% increase
    • Worlds: 39, 44% increase

    New Juniors: 27

    New Junior TES minimums have been set to last year's senior TES minimum for the Men SP, Pairs FS, Dance SD, and Dance FD. They are higher than last year's TES minimum for:

    Men FS: 35->40, 14% increase
    Ladies SP: 15->20, 33.3% increase
    Ladies FS: 25->35, 40% increase
    Pairs SP: 17->20, 18% increase
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    So this will decrease the participation of developing federations in the ISU championships.

    It should increase the importance of non-championship international competitions. Which feds will step up to offer more of those -- especially outside Europe, and especially in the winter for skaters who have a breakout at their national championships (or newly formed teams) but didn't have fall assignments?
  5. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the result will be score inflation like at nationals, but at senior Bs?

    Judges from smaller federations will have an interest in getting their skaters to meet these scores. If they score ALL the skaters higher, then there is no bias toward their own skater and there is still fairness in reaching the podium, but it will help skaters qualify for championships.


    It is weird how they always say scores can't be compared across competitions, but then set a number that has to be reached at a different competition to compare to. A skater who scores a 35 at one competition may not be at the same level of one who scores it at another...
  6. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    From the ISU Congress thread:

    Since all but one of the competitions are in Europe, and the exception may be in Istanbul, depending on where the rink is located, this will mean :bribe: for everyone else.

    Lots for Ladies and Men, a good number for Dance, three for Pairs, assuming there are enough entries.

    December (for early nationals):
    5-9: NRW Trophy (Men, Ladies, Dance), Dortmund
    5-9: Santa Claus Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Budapest
    18-22: Istanbul Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Istanbul

    January:
    3-5: 1st New Year Cup (Ladies, Men), Bratislava
    8-12: Skate Helena (Ladies, Men), Belgrade
    10-12: Mentor Nestle Nesquick Cup (Ladies, Men, Pairs, Dance), Torun
    10-12: Coupe Internationale (Dance), Lyon
    10-13: Volvo Open Cup (Ladies, Men, Dance), Riga
    31-3 Feb: The Nordics (Ladies, Men), Reykjavik

    February:
    7-10: Bavarian Open (Ladies, Men, Pairs, Dance), Obertsdorf
    7-10: Dragon Trophy/Tivoli Cup (Ladies, Men), Ljubljana
    14-17: Hellmut Siebt Memorial (Ladies Men), Vienna
    21-24: 1st Citta di Torino Trophy (Ladies, Men, Dance), Torino
    21-24: Challenge Cup (Ladies, Men, Pairs), Den Haag
  7. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    The minimum score for Worlds is absolutely ridiculous! Even some of the better Ladies wouldnt meet this minimum score for the World Championships, let alone all the skaters from smaller federations. I am so sad we will never see skaters from smaller federations at Worlds again. The ISU destroyed the Championships with this new rule. I cant believe they increased it so drastically, its horrible! :(((
  8. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    We say this all the time, but has anyone from the ISU ever said this?

    According to 1742, based on Congress' decision to remove the Preliminary round, the Council made the decision to raise the TES minimums for championships; they don't need Congress' approval to do this.

    Their stated goal:
    "to achieve an Event Schedule manageable for the respective Organizing Committees, the Skaters and Officials as well as respecting engagements with host and commercial partners"

    They also built in the caveat:
    There's also the "Canada*" clause:
    *Of course it also applies to all of the other assigned championships that will be impacted by the Congress' decision, but Skate Canada shouted the loudest.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  9. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Dates for 2013 ISU Championships:
    21 - 27 January - European Figure Skating Championships 2013, Zagreb, Croatia
    6 - 11 February - Four Continents Figure Skating Championships 2013. Osaka, Japan
    25 Feb. - 3 March - World Junior Figure Skating Championships 2013, Milan, Italy
    10 - 17 March - World Figure Skating Championships 2013, London (Ontario), Canada

    Another excerpt from ISU Communication 1742:
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  10. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    You have a point. 20.00 is reasonable. At 28.00, of the 30 skaters who skated the short program, only ten earned 28.00 or more.

    Possibly 5 or 6 others who didn't may have earned that score internationally prior to the event.

    But yes, the numbers are really going to drop significantly.

    Worlds may be skated in a day!
  11. aikon

    aikon New Member

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    Just to make it clear - the member federations who voted for the deletion of the Qualifying Rounds did "destroy" the championships. This was not a proposal from the ISU.
  12. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for clarifying.
  13. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Did the federations vote for these qualifying scores? Were they presented with the information of how exactly the qual. scores would change if the qualifying round was eliminated?
  14. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    I have a hard time imagining this happening, the skaters could get some help, but the skaters will need the higher level jumps and spins to really be able to compete. I don't suddenly see a rush of judges awarding +2 or +3 GOEs for double flips or lutzes.

    That minimum TES for Worlds is just :eek:.
  15. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    I agree with this observation.

    I wonder how long countries like India, Puerto Rico, South Africa, Malaysia, and the list goes on....will pay to be members if their skaters cannot compete in any ISU Championships.
    An even more important question is...can they still vote at the ISU if none of their skaters compete in ISU Championships over a certain period of time..or do they retain a 'guest membership' as long as they pay their dues.
    Hmmmm...some candidates for leader would be interested in seeing them retain voting rights, I am sure.
  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I like it this way more.

    When there were the qualifying rounds, each skater (from the smaller skating federations) had only one chance to qualify, and the number of places were limited. Now the skaters need to reach some qualifying score, but they may attend several competitions. They have as many attempts as their association can afford (or their own pocket can afford). They are not fighting for some limited amount of places, they are fighting to get the right score, so one could argue that it is in their own hands. There is a chance that more skaters will reach the score than if there was just a limit on the number of places who can qualify.
  17. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Did they re-elect Speedy? :shuffle: It isn't as if he didn't have a record of allowing lots of decisions like this without the involvement of the Congress.

    I'm surprised they went as high as they did, but I'm not at all surprised that the qualifying scores were raised, and they shouldn't be either.

    Perhaps this will be even further incentive for federations to sponsor more Senior B's and qualifying junior events.
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    17 of 30 of the Ladies in Nice, 11 of the 24 who skated the FS, did not score 28 in the SP:

    Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari, and the six Ladies who didn't make the FS.

    Silete and Korobeynikova earned the minimum at Euros (and may have at other competitions). Czisny at GPF, Popova and Silete at NRW, Frank and Marchei at International Challenge Cup.

    Hecken narrowly missed at Nebelhorn. Lafuente narrowly missed at TEB. Lacoste's highest score was 26+. Unless I've missed a score, McCorkell and Mikonsaari weren't even close. All would have qualified for Euros/4C's, with a minimum of 20.

    I didn't check the six who didn't make the free skate. Since the FS scores in the Prelims for those who didn't qualify for the SP ranged from 23-~37, I doubt that any of them scored 28 in the SP in international competition. (I didn't see any notable SP skaters in this group.)

    Lafuente's base content at Golden Spin -- 3F, 3Lo/2T, 2A, 2-L3 spins, 1-L4 spin, and L3 FW, not exactly shabby -- was 27; the TES minimum for Worlds is 28.
  19. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    OMG! I didn't realise that skaters like Marchei, McCorkell, Lacoste, Silete, Czisny, Lafuente, Korobeynikova, Popova, Hecken, Frank, Mikonsaari wouldn't qualify! That's really harsh. But I think there will be a way around it, such as inflated scores at B competitions, because I can't imagine that they would want to have Worlds with only 13 ladies.

    Also, the skaters will have more attempts than just one to reach the score.
  20. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    They don't have to: the power lies in the hands of the ISU Council, not the Congress. They justified it in 1742 as having been in response to the vote by Congress, but they could have done it without the change.

    One the one hand, I don't think the smaller federations would have voted for elimination of prelims if they had been told, but that assumes that they are that naive/stupid. The only upside for them is not paying expenses for skaters who don't make the later rounds, since the majority don't host championships. On the other hand, Canada knew enough to make a stink about not being able to afford Worlds with the elimination of preliminaries, and I doubt that David Dore didn't know.
  21. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Some of them would qualify- Czisny for example met it at Skate America and GPF. If I understand, they don't have to get that score at World's- they have to get it somewhere to qualify for worlds (though I can't get the document to open. Is there still a cut from SP to free?). Using Czisny's world's score (where she totally bombed) is a bit misleading. Others on that list met the score in other competitions.

    BUT it does show that these "big name" skaters don't always meet that score- so there is very little hope for the low ranking skaters.


    I do have a small amount of worry that if the field becomes so small at World's it will risk figure skating as an Olympic sport. The Olympics thinks that the competitiveness of multiple nations is a very important factor. If figure skating becomes all about one or two nations (like softball) it could be in trouble (though as a 'flagship' type sport, this is unlikely.)
  22. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    From day 1 people said this was a very stupid move by the smaller federations.. Now they are in the hands of the COunsil's decisions at least until the 2014 congress.
  23. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    As I wrote, Silete, Marchei, Czisny, Korobeynikova, Popova, and Frank met the minimum before Worlds. Lafuente and Hecken had at least one 27+-point score, and Lacoste a 26+-point score. Only McCorkell and Mikonsaari didn't come close to the Worlds minimum.

    I was trying to give context to how high 28 TES is, based on last year's Worlds. All but two were capable of earning 28, and McCorkell could if she got back into shape, but it's going to be tough. Hecken had four tries -- one GP and three Senior B's -- and Lafuente one GP and two Senior B's.

    Skate Canada would have had a problem in 2011-12 if these rules had been in place: neither Pfaneuf nor Lacoste earned the 28. (Both had 26.X.) The only Canadian to earn the new minimum would have been Kaetlyn Osmond, who earned 28.46 at Jr. Worlds.

    It will be interesting to see if the minimum scores are applied to the Olympics. They likely will impact Olympic selection next year, especially if they're not adjusted. (If the ISU is monitoring scores to see the potential impact at Worlds, it would be very helpful if they maintained the list of highest SP scores, including international competitions, on the website.)

    At this rate, perhaps the scenario where Canada does not qualify a Ladies' spot for Sochi at either London Worlds or the Olympic qualifier, and Rochette is enlisted to skate the team event is a little more likely.
  24. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    Either I don't understand something, or Worlds are going to be a slightly extended version of GP event.

    In 2012 SP we had :
    13 men
    12 pairs
    12 ladies
    8 ice-dance couples

    that made the required minimum.
    :confused:
    Is there any point we're supposed to get?
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  25. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Men who scored more than 35 in the 2011-2012 season (I'll try to consolidate data for all categories/segments when im back from work)

    BEL
    JoriK Hendrickx
    Kevin Van Der Perren (Retired)
    CAN
    Andrei Rogozine
    Kevin Reynolds
    Patrick Chan
    CHN
    Han Yan
    Jialiang Wu (Retired)
    Jinlin Guan
    Nan Song
    CZE
    Tomas Verner
    Michal Brezina
    ESP
    Javier Fernandez
    javier Raya
    FRA
    Brian Joubert
    Chafik Besseghier
    Florent Amodio
    GER
    Peter Liebers
    ITA
    Paolo Bacchini
    Samuel Contesti (Retired)
    JPN
    Daisuke Murakami
    Daisuke Takahashi
    Keiji Tanaka
    Kento Nakamura
    Nobunari Oda
    Ryuju HIno
    Takahiko Kozuka
    Takahito Mura
    Tatsuki Machida
    Yuzuru Hanyu
    KAZ
    Denis Ten
    ROU
    Zoltan Kelemen
    RUS
    Artem Grigoriev (Retired)
    Artur Dmitriev
    Artur Gachinski
    Evgeni Plushenko
    Ivan Bariev
    Ivan Tretiakov
    Konstantin Menshov
    Zhan Bush
    SWE
    Alexander Majkorov
    USA
    Adam Rippon
    Brandon Mroz
    Grant Hochstein
    Jason Brown
    Jeremy Abott
    Joshua Farris
    Keegan Messing
    Max Aaron
    Richard Dornbush
    Ross Miner
    Stephen Carriere

    Noticeables absences: Kim Lucine, Viktor Pfeifer, Misha Ge, Christopher Caluza.

    If we take into account spots aviailables for each federation we have only 22 Men competing at worlds so far..:rolleyes::(:scream:

    Trying to look at the positive side, this could be a precedent for increasing the numbers of spots by country?
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  26. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    It isn't who got the score in the short program at world's, but people who got the score anytime during the season who can qualify (then narrowed down by the country entry limits)

    So it is very limited, but not quite as limited as you listed. It does seem like it will just be an extended grand prix though.

    Maybe they should scrap the country limits and just take the top X skaters from the season (by score, not by ranking- because the senior B's in Europe always skew that).
  27. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

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    Ladies who scored 28 or plus in the SP during the 2011-2012 season:


    CAN
    Kaetlyn Osmond
    CHN
    Bingwa Geng
    Kexin Zhang
    Zijun Li
    Ziquan Zhao
    GEO
    Elene Gedevanishvili
    EST
    Elena Glebova
    Gerli Liinamae
    FIN
    Juulia Turkkila
    Kiira Korpi
    FRA
    Lenaelle Gilleron-Gory
    Mae Berenice Meite
    Yretha Silete
    ITA
    Carolina Kostner
    Valentina Marchei
    JPN
    Akiko Suzuki
    Haruna Suzuki
    Haruka Imai
    Mao Asada
    Miu Sato
    Kako tomotaki
    Kanako Murakami
    Risa Shoji
    Satoko Miyahara
    Yuki Nishino
    KOR
    Hae-Jin Kim
    RUS
    Adelina Sotnikova
    Alena Leonova
    Anna Ovcharova
    Anna Shershak
    Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
    Julia Lipnistskaya
    Ksenia Makarova
    Kristina Zaseeva
    Maria Artemieva
    Maria Stavistkaya
    Polina Agafonova
    Polina Korobeynikova
    Polina Shelepen
    Sofia Biryukova
    SLO
    Patricia Glescic
    SWE
    Joshi Helgesson
    Viktoria Helgesson
    UKR
    Natalia Popova
    USA
    Agnes Zawadski
    Alissa Czisny
    Ashley Wagner
    Caroline Zhang
    Christina Gao
    Gracie Gold
    Mirai Nagasu
    Rachael Flatt
    Samantha Cesario
    Vanessa Lam

    Noticeable absences: Sarah Hecken, Ming Jung Kwak, Sonia Lafuente, Amelie Lacoste

    That's again only 22 ladies spots so far for the World Championships!:mad::scream::(:lol:
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  28. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Not all the smaller federations voted against retaining the preliminaries. Let's not lump them all in together.
  29. morqet

    morqet Active Member

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    But of those ladies, how many of them also met the required FS TES mark? It could drop even further!
  30. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    Of course, but I'm not as hardcore to check every single SP TES. But I think the worlds results give a good indication; after all this is what they're all supposed to achieve.
    I would HATE that.
    Figure skating is a personal sport, but it's funded and supported by the federations; it's not tennis.
    We already have the "private club" of the big federations, and it's called the GP series.
    Lanna and (deleted member) like this.
  31. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and it is about to be world's too....

    So if you already aren't letting the world compete, have it be the top skaters regardless of country.
  32. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    Even 20.00 is too high for Ladies from small federations, Clara Peters who qualified for the SP at Euros AND Worlds has never met 20 points in technical for the SP. Why do they call it the World Championships, when only the skaters from the best 8 countries can compete? The Worlds will never be the same again where the best skater/s from every country in the World can compete at the World Championships, i loved to watch them, even if they coudnt land triple jumps.
    I could cry now :(
  33. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Skittl1321; if we are not going to see the skaters from the small federations anyway, we may as well see the best in the world, without any limits on what country they come from.
  34. Andrey aka Pushkin

    Andrey aka Pushkin Brezina's Nemesis

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    I seriously doubt they are seriously going to limit the number of skaters to 10.
    I would assume they will fill up the missing spots according to the federations spots going by the SB.
  35. allezfred

    allezfred Prick Admin Staff Member

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    Peters is planning to put triple jumps in next season. Still 28 points for Worlds is going to be really tough to make. :(
  36. SkatingIsLife

    SkatingIsLife Member

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    Sorry to say and not to offend anyone, but who does not meet the required elements (i.e. 2 different triple jumps in the Ladies SP) should not be in any senior Championships. Rules are there for a reason this way and that way.
  37. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    If the ISU wanted this, they should have made the qualifying off the short program, and not the free program.
  38. elfenblüte

    elfenblüte New Member

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    Thats really good for her but i doubt she could make the 28 technical points in the near future, let alone the points for the FP. And what happens to all the other skaters from developing federations? It was so important for them to compete at the World Championships to get expirience and train with the best skaters.
    I think Javier Fernandez wouldnt be a world class skater now if he couldnt have compete at Euros and Worlds from the very beginning of his skating career.
  39. kylet3

    kylet3 Well-Known Member

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    :eek: The ISU and these federations keep coming up with more and creative ways of shooting themselves in the foot. While I don't mind a slight increase in the technical elements score, some of these score increases are completely ridiculous.

    This is going to say to smaller federations that are trying to actually develop their skaters, that they aren't cared about, that only the big more powerful boys can come to play. It sends completely the wrong message.
  40. peibeck

    peibeck Counting down the days 'til Skate America

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    Does this ruling only effect countries who have not qualified direct entries through the previous ISU championships?

    For example, I believe Denis Ten qualified 2 men for KAZ for Worlds next season. Is the ISU saying, despite the pre-qualification, both skaters must have met the minimum requirement to enter?

    And what if a world class skater (like a Denis Ten) were to be injured and unable to compete in the fall but healthy enough to compete in the spring? No ISU championship because no minimum met, or can a federation petition for such an invitation?