Miki Ando in 2011 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by torren, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. torren

    torren New Member

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    If you say you can not understand gap in pcs between kim and ando or ando's pcs, It is ok.. Everyone has different opinions.
    But I can never agree that she was not better than 2010 olympic artistically. I think miki's programs in 10-11 are much better than her in 09-10
    olympic FS - http://youtu.be/wTX09GUugpo
    2011 worlds FS- http://youtu.be/ZD_AtQv9ub4

    about musics.
    salome VS rach ? red violin or carmen? They are not similar case at all. difference between them is just degree of which music was more well known. both sides are well known music
    But kim's music was... even before consider whether it is famous or not, type of genre is difficult. To contrast, maybe everyone have heard miki's musics of programs at least once before she skated.

    Anyway, regardless of you are crying and saying it shouldn't be. figure skating has been like. Are there anyone who believe judges have judged purely just based on performance? while miki has been the best skater of the season, what kim did? Again, Kim should know they can affect
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  2. torren

    torren New Member

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    But you doubted her score difference in each competitions in one season in 21# post.
    certainly You doubted her score

    plus, In your #21 post it is very unreliability sentence
    could i see the exact data on that? which competitions miki won by pcs, and how number of times she did and also about kim
    please expain all of things
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  3. HVS

    HVS Member

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    I find it strange that you are insist compare them when Miki at her best form and Yuna at her worst, then say "Miki can beat Yuna anytime" :rolleyes: Why don't compare them when two at their best? We could also based on the score even they don't compete each other :lol:

    Okay, I agree with you that Miki can beat Yuna when she at her best while Yuna at her worst by what, about 1 point :D Once happend at 2011 Worlds, and will never happen again, that's all :cool:
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  4. torren

    torren New Member

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    Miki in 2011 worlds was not the best form of her. Miki had not 3-3 in sp and fs, planned 6 triples in fs, She did not a 3 Flip. Miki just played safe. Miki at the best she can do same or more difficulty jumps than kim

    And as I siad so many times in this thread, I said if miki in top form(so had also reputations) and yuna kim doing same jumps, they would be tie.

    I compared GOE of them on ONLY jumps both two did well. Also goe on spin and step. It does not relate to whether kim was at the worst or not. I did not compare what they landed how many jumps, or had mistakes. 2011 Worlds where miki was the same class with kim, also had reputations as well kim, Two got same GOE on single jumps that two did successfully. including 3lutz. pcs was not so different.

    Again, I was saying based on the facts, Please refute my opinions more objectively
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  5. HVS

    HVS Member

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    Okay, whatever you believe, it will be the fact for you

    But "Miki can beat Yuna ANYTIME" not the fact, please, it's just your hypothesis, no one (anyone?) accept, the reality not prove it

    Peace!

    *sigh*
     
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  6. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Of course I doubt her score, I doubt everyone's score, others can too. This is figure skating. Why do you think there are threads where people mention how they'd judge the event? Or how they disagree with the judging?

    I pay attention to stats like how one can pay attention to financial forecast (which I can disagree too), and notes how things like reputation, good and negative press and environmental, political factors can affect human appraisals which IJS tries to do objectively - but arguably can fail, when it doesn't appear to account for risk management like dealing with how variable factors and attributes can also affect scoring (human error, emotion, latency effect/what you see-what you believe, national loyalty and biases hidden by anonymity and lack of accountability) and false bench marking (momentum building, home event advantages that favours the more powerful federations, narrow corridor marking for PCS etc) can all affect scoring.

    I'd argue the next big change in rules are not necessarily to do with the procedural aspect or how elements should be numerically awarded but should be about giving the judges 5-10 minutes extra time to contemplate and reappraise if they got the marks correctly the first time including the availability of close up repeat plays using Zoom in close ups videos, which should be done once everyone completed their performance. This should also be done between each competitions too, where there should be a recalibration process to apply consistent judging standards and marks between different events. Otherwise one false inflated mark at home events where judges are encouraged to get it wrong will prove unfair advantage to others as the next competition. This shouldn't be about what is popular with the sporting federations but what is fair to the sport and ALL its participants.

    Miki's scores as the season progresses is inconsistent with how she was previously marked and performed on ice. She have been over marked through out the season as JSF found they can't rely on Mao as their leading lady. I have already raised the issue of the dramatic PCS / GOE rise from the beginning of the season at CoC to 4CC to WC. That her 4CC had been the 2nd highest FS in ISU ladies history ever. Which means it would have won Silver at the Olympics 2010 and WC 2011 over Mao - even without a 3:3 or 3A. The 4CCs being a competition known for inflated scores, yet her WC FS performance being less well performed with mistakes with 7.28 less TES score than 4CC, Miki received a boost of + 3.22 in PCS on top of her 4CC score which is enough to distort the rankings.

    As for point 19, do your own data research using the ISU protocols. If you don't believe me, then simply prove me wrong. I am not here to provide stats service, especially you've already made your mind up to bash Yuna where ever her name is mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  7. torren

    torren New Member

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    you were right about her score difference. She was surely treated differently in each competitions.
    but I found proper reasons why judges should do..

    At COC, her rival skater was akiko. her pcs was the highest and but almost same with suzuki. was not so high.. sp:28 / fs:55
    At COR, her rival was again akiko here. her pcs was even lower than akiko by 4 points. sp:26/fs:57
    At Worlds, her rival was yuna kim, and her PCS was lower than yuna kim by 3 points. sp:31/fs:64

    As we see, She was treated as same level skater with akiko in COC, COR.
    At Worlds, she was treated as same level with kim.
    This is strange facts because judges have been seeing akiko and yuna kim in different class but miki was treated same with them in each different competitions in one season

    I felt that judges were confused to how seeing miki in which level? by only considering her ability in that season.. Because Miki was surely the favorite skater but miki had not special factors 3-3 or 3a or amazing artistry like other Top skaters... So very depends on her rivals of each competitions... At worlds, they should find who should be rival with kim. So.. They suddenly made miki to kim's rival at 4CC. 4cc was held in japan and Maybe JSF also supported it because Mao had raugh season as you said. And Miki was treated as same level skater with kim at worlds

    The fact that treatment developed, did not much relate with her ability development, but was it like a unseen rule judges needed

    OK. anyway, Even if miki did sometimes or even many times, it doesn't matter. all top figure skaters do. top skaters often win by PCS even when they missed many jumps. carolina won euro this year overly in this way. TES was 10 points behind sotnikova and PCS was 10 points higher than sotnikova. patrick chan won that way at this worlds, ashley won by that way in 2013 U.S. national
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  8. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Ando's only mistake in the LP at those Worlds cost her about 5 and a half points. Kim's triple flip miss cost her about 6 points, then her single toe on the back of the triple salchow about another 2 and a half. Kim's triple lutz miss in the short program cost her atleast 3 points. Her not doing the triple-triple combo she had planned in the short was another 3 points. So Kim had much more lost in mistakes than Ando at those Worlds. Even if you overlook not doing the triple-triple in the short since Ando didnt try one (even though Kim can do them and Ando cant) them having the same mistakes would have been Kim having only the singled triple flip in the long and Ando stumbling out of her planned double toe-triple toe which she turned into a double-double in the long and removing Kim's triple lutz miss and missing her triple salchow-double toe combination in the long. Remove those and with increased PCS Kim probably wins by about 8 points overall. Just remove one of the two and Kim still wins, even though she still has 1 more mistake than Ando and the bigger big mistake (Kim's singled flip is bigger than Ando's missed double axel-triple toe).

    Ando has no area she would outscore a clean Kim. Not jump GOE, not spins, not footwork or spirals, definitely not PCS. You only help prove the point as the best you can do is point some things Ando tied Kim in GOE or PCS or was close, but never a time she was ahead on anything, not even for a single element unless Kim missed it. As for jump GOE Kim on her 7 clean jumps at those Worlds gained 6.77 in GOE. Ando on 9 clean jumps gained 7.37 in GOE, so on average less than Kim. So even there she was behind and that was with Kim in her worst shape ever, and skating and jumping much smaller than usual in addition to making a ton of mistakes. How can you beat someone when you are both clean if there isnt a single thing you can score better. Where would the points magically come from. Scoring equal or close in a few things is still not better.

    It is true Ando was closer in scoring potential than usual than Kim at the 2011 Worlds which is why with Kim making many more and much bigger mistakes she was able to barely beat her. That is because aside from Kim's many mistakes and Ando skating nearly her best, Ando had reputation from dominanting that season with Kim, Kostner, and Asada all away, backing from the powerful Japanese fed. with Asada struggling, and since Kim was skating and jumping much smaller than usual due to the lack of training and the ISU and jugdes were made at her for not taking skating seriously since the Games. Any other time especialy today the gap in scoring potential would be about 5 times more than it was at that years Worlds. Imagine if they both skated their best at the 2010 Olympics, and Ando had done all her triple-triples. What would the gap have been there, atleast 25 points probably.

    As for Ando not doing the most she could do get real. The hardest thing she has been able to do since 2007 is a double axel-triple toe combination and triple lutz-double loop. Her triple-triple attempts were all downgraded since then which is why she barely tries them anymore. She just cant do them. Even when Ando skated totally cleanly with the triple lutz-triple loop and all her hardest jumps at the 2007 Worlds though she needed Kim to have about 4 falls worth of mistakes to beat her.