Michelle Kwan's Dream of Desdemona and use of music

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by BigB08822, May 15, 2011.

  1. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    20,818
    2,371
    113
    I came across this video quite randomly today while I was bored. I have never given Michelle Kwan's Dream of Desdemona program very much thought. I liked it but it certainly doesn't stand out when I think of her amazing short program the way Rach, Romanza, The Feeling Begins, etc do for me. I was shocked when I watched this performance of Dream of Desdemona. I can't remember a short program from her or ANYONE else in the modern era who used every note of music so flawlessly. Nothing goes unused in this program. Every single move has a point and a place and that is SO HARD. CoP can never reward this kind of skating fairly and that is so sad. It would just get glossed over in the PCS mark which the judges do not know how to accurately score. Watch for yourself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEklWrSU8VQ
     
  2. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    17,432
    1,293
    113
    DoD has always been one of my favorite of her SP's. I haven't seen it in awhile. Thanks for the link. :)
     
  3. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

    14,083
    620
    113
    I love this program.
     
  4. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

    9,012
    671
    113
    That is my favorite SP of hers. :swoon: Flawless in every way.
     
  5. zigzig

    zigzig Active Member

    294
    56
    28
    I agree! She never really skated this one to its full potential but I've always been obsessed with the choreography and the way she pieced together a sort of random assortment of music (um, hello, Red Poppy?) into a brilliantly cohesive program filled with incredible dramatic tension. The build to the climax is really just incredible and coupled with Taj confirms my belief that 1997 was one of Michelle's strongest years choreographically speaking.
     
  6. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

    5,586
    491
    83
    I agree 100%. 1997's programs were IMO the best she's had. DOD in particular has to be my all-time favorite SP by any lady. Ironically enough, my favorite performance of Kwan to DoD was her world's SP, where she messed up the combination. The anger, passion and speed she had then was breath taking. I also like her Japan Open performance.
     
  7. IceJunkie

    IceJunkie Well-Known Member

    2,140
    251
    63
    ITA. Dream of Desdemona is my favorite SP that Michelle ever did. Lori really worked her magic that season and dare I say both DoD and Taj Mahal had the potential to be masterpieces. Unfortunately Michelle never really performed them up to par in competition and so 1996-97 gets pushed aside as being a "bad" season for MK and people tend to overlook how intricate and beautiful her programs were. Its mind-blowing that she was only 16 years old. Very few 16-year-olds have ever been able to interpret music with that level of artistry and passion.

    Michelle's split falling leaf at the 1:18 mark is incredible.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  8. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    4,466
    550
    113
    DoD is IMO the best program Kwan's ever had. I personally prefer it to her 1998 SP, which is usually hailed as her best ever.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Aaron W

    Aaron W New Member

    8,467
    1,140
    0
    Dream of Desdemona has long been my favorite short program from Kwan (and quite possibly my favorite ever). Incidentally, this particular performance you posted actually placed behind Kristi Yamaguchi. As much of a fan as I am of Kristi (she is the reason I first started watching figure skating back in the early 90s), this performance from Kwan was worthy of the top marks. The attention to detail and the solid execution of the elements should have placed her in first (though she did end up winning overall after winning the interpretive program).

    Despite the fact she stepped out of the 3lutz at Worlds that season, I think that particular performance is my absolute favorite.
     
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    26,863
    4,039
    113
    Sometimes I wish that Michelle had continued to use unusual music like DOD over the years. They bore her signature.
     
  11. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    20,818
    2,371
    113
    I think Michelle continued to use lesser used music even if it wasn't always completely unheard like in her earlier career. For example, she skated to Bolero but how many singles ladies skaters had dared skate to that, or anyone for that matter, since T&D made it their signature piece? She used The Feeling Begins and I could only think of Baiul having ever skated to it, no one in the amateur ranks. East of Eden was already hers to begin with.
     
  12. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    I recall that Michelle was criticized when she used different music and choreography for 2000-2001 season's The Miraculous Mandarin, music by Bela Bartok, choreo by Peter Oppegard. (This program was only skated this one time -- it might have become a masterpiece had she been able to further develop it. As youtube posters note, ironically Kwan was often criticized for safe programs, but when she went outside-the-box, she was royally panned for choosing unusual music and choreo we were unaccustomed to seeing from her -- definitely a shame).


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWarys9kuzM
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    Down memory lane … Thanks so much for posting the clips! I definitely agree with everyone’s comments. It was due to Kwan’s troubles in the ’96 – ’97 season (problems with her skates; adjusting to her sister being away at college; getting used to being a World champion; and learning how to defend her titles) that DoD and Taj Mahal are not usually remembered for their greatness. Great music, great choreography, great costumes, and quite a few wonderful performances as well, despite the media’s focus on the challenges she faced that season. The quality of MK’s DoD sp performance at ‘97 Worlds far surpasses that of her competitors, despite her step-out on the triple lutz combination. The tech scores are questionable because they obviously were not giving her credit for her superb technique on all of the other elements. Was the lutz/ 2toe not counted as a completed combination? Obviously, the musical interpretation is exquisite.

    Another thing about DoD: I absolutely loved Kwan’s original purple costume with the puff sleeves, as it was relevant to the story behind the music. However, I believe she and team decided to change to the more abstract black outfit (which was also lovely) because of the clueless criticism in the press decrying a 16-year-old skating to such a “violent” theme. This was ridiculous criticism IMHO. When the criticism reared its head, the critics also referred to the story behind her music for Salome -- nitpicking a majestic, iconic program. Kwan was too good to be true for some people, I suppose. But never mind, she has been and continues to be an inspiration for thousands of others universally. In regard to that thread topic about Yu Na vs. Kwan, there’s no doubt, as Yu Na has stated herself, albeit in slightly different words, that she admires and has been greatly influenced in her own skating by watching and learning from Michelle’s brilliant performances. ‘Nuff said on that topic.

    I could watch Michelle skating clips all day … My absolute favorite exhibition of Michelle’s is Dante’s Prayer (by Loreena McKennitt). Below are four clips of Dante’s Prayer that are interesting to watch (the first has very little commentary – part way through, Sandra Bezic, in a mesmerized tone observes that, “What is so exquisite about this program is that the jumps are meshed within the choreography.”) Highlights for me are the opening moves (so indescribable the feelings evoked), the section where Kwan moves backward and then runs forward, the double falling leaves, the camel spin in one direction and then the camel spin following immediately in the opposite direction, the iconic spiral sequence culminating at about 3:56 in an absolutely breathtaking salchow jump – you can hear the crowd gasp with wonder and pleasure. That is the epitome of what Sandra Bezic said about the jumps meshing as part of the whole. There is a lightness and a spiritual quality about Michelle in this performance (she exhibits that quality in many performances, but particularly here, where the haunting music and the singer’s voice meld with Kwan’s lyrical deeply felt movements and send our hearts soaring in spite of the melancholy aspect of the words and the music). The second clip of Dante’s Prayer is apparently at a pro-am competition, not the Worlds exhibition that's listed. The third clip is at a Keri Lotion cheesefest, and I love Dick's and Peggy's comments. The fourth is at U.S. Pros in '98. By the latter few performances, Michelle had cut her hair. Quite interesting to view these different performances to the same program. Michelle’s consistency is amazing. She is a national treasure.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZnp3fTlVwY (DP at '98 Ultimate 4)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEtWPqeF3UA (at a pro-am event, probably one of her earliest performances of DP; she wore a red dress for this program at the ’98 Worlds exhibition, so that is not this performance)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxcZkM6FKw0&NR=1 (DP at Keri Lotion cheesefest)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deEodYmiqZA (DP at U.S. Pros -- a great fluff interview with Michelle at the beginning of this clip)

    Another favorite of mine is Michelle’s 2002 exhibition performance to Fields of Gold, which speaks for itself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wazOhkRuySI&feature=fvwrel

    I also love Hands:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqVXK8xdpV0 (Here she had achieved the aesthetically pleasing leg position in the layback which she did not sustain past this season)

    and East of Eden at '98 World Pros (which I saw live):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3FntkFAyU&feature=related
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
  14. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    2,786
    370
    83

    JMHO, but CoP cannot and will not reward this type of skating. So, I'm sad to say, we may never see it again. I love watching the links on this page because instead of wondering how many points each element will rack up, I simply stare in amazement as each movement and each element express the music and speak to me.

    Figure skating is a sport AND an art, and I think we've gone too far in the direction of the former. Is it possible to be creative and expressive under CoP? Yes, but it's much harder to do, and there is no reward for it. Even those that succeeded (Jeff Buttle comes to mind) did their best work in the 6.0 system in my opinion. With skaters like Yuna Kim and Patrick Chan, I wonder if their programs would be even more free and expressive without the restrictions of CoP. I think Yes. I know everyone has their opinion, but the reason I was drawn to figure skating was because of its artistic side. Let the people who say it's "not a sport" keep on saying it. We're never going to change their minds anyway. They can watch balls fly into nets all day long and I won't say a thing. In the meantime, please ISU modify the judging system and at least give the Free Programs some freedom.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2011
  15. BellaSTRARSSA!

    BellaSTRARSSA! Member

    311
    14
    18
    Dream Of Desdemona is definitely my favorite Kwan SP and my favorite Ladies SP ever, though she had a lot of great ones. Just note-perfect choreography and performance. Taj Mahal is amazing as well. COP programs without the need of a strict road map, basically.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  16. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    14,552
    2,428
    113
    aftershocks. thanks so much for sharing your thoughts - and the links.
    I'd "rep" you, if I could.

    Were you in Landover for Michelle's 1998 World Pro-Am "Ariane"?
    That's one of my "desert island" performances.
    I'd love to know what it felt like "in person".
     
  17. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

    1,125
    220
    0
    It doesn't get as much love as some of her other performances, but I have a real soft spot for East of Eden at 2001 worlds. Part of it might be the dress which fits the music and theme better than others she wore for this program...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44ylTuYn4J0
     
  18. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    7,679
    1,455
    113
    What a trip down memory lane. The Kween is such an icon. :respec:

    On another note, I went from Michelle Kwan to Grishuk & Chicko at Jr. Worlds in 1988, to Klimova & Ponomarenko, to the Battle of the Brians and then to a variety of other :swoon: worthy skates.

    Makes me nostalgic for skaters of yesteryear. What can I say? It's the off season. :lol:
     
  19. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    8,814
    2,314
    113
    Nice to see this thread. Back in the day when we only saw Worlds, Lausanne in 1997 was the first time I saw DoD and I remember thinking, despite the step out on the combo, just how miles ahead of anyone else she really was at that time. no other skater could have skated it. I'm loving the links on youtube too and just watched Pocahontas from the Ultimate 4. while a very youthful exhibition, there's no denying how wonderful she is in that program. The emotion is just oozing out all over the ice. Wonderful stuff. :swoon:

    ETA: Does anyone know what US cheesefest she also performed Pocahontas post 1997 Worlds and skated an absolute blinder bringing the house down? I've seen it before but can't find it.
     
    Aaron W and (deleted member) like this.
  20. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    Thanks skatesindreams! (I love your username :) )

    Yes, I was in Landover and witnessed both of Michelle's performances live at 1998 World Pros. The best highlight was meeting Michelle backstage at an afterparty and having a picture taken with her! Being in the audience watching Michelle perform was absolutely thrilling and uplifting. There was a lot of electricity and excitement in the air. Michelle skated her technical program to Ariane, and EoE was her artistic program. This event marked her first (and ultimately her best) performance of Ariane. It was amazing to have the opportunity to see her skate brilliantly to this performance for the first time. Her technical content was outstanding and unusual for a Pro event. Although the event itself was unusual, as eligible skaters were allowed to perform at World Pros that year without losing their eligible status. In the youtube clip, the commentator notes that Michelle has such "calm, serenity and integrity" as a skater, which "is rare and not often seen these days." I'd add: not often seen at anytime -- and that's one reason why Michelle's performances stand the test of time.

    At the World Pros event, I had a decent seat, but not an up-close seat, so I enjoyed seeing the performance again many times in video clips and recalling what it was like being in the audience. :saint: Yuka Sato also skated brilliantly at this competition and placed second.

    In viewing the EoE clip, it is quite noticeable how closely bonded Michelle and Frank were in their relationship at that time. Maybe a short time later they began to subtly not see eye-to-eye regarding Kwan's desire to attend college, and also Frank seemingly was not fully on board with Kwan's Miraculous Mandarin program, with the unusual music and choreography by her brother-in-law, Peter Oppegard. Interesting how a poster in the MM youtube clip notes that The Miraculous Mandarin by Bela Bartok "is probably one of the most important 20th-century [musical compositions]." LOL at the announcer's voice for this GP final event -- his voice sounded similar to that of a boxing announcer.

    Thanks mafke for posting that link to Michelle's 2001 Worlds EoE sp -- skated so beautifully, and I agree re the costume. She was definitely fit and ready to battle.

    LOL, mayra, I know what you mean. There's so many wonderful skating clips to view on youtube that bring back memories, or provide a chance to see performances I might have missed at the time, and of course all the historical clips that are so fascinating.
     
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    Not sure floskate. :) I recall that MK performed Pocahontas on tour with COI, and that MK and Nicole were at a cheesefest one year where MK performed Pocahontas, but I don't recall the name of the event. Wonder why its sometimes difficult to find stuff on youtube that probably is still there.
     
  22. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    12,540
    1,318
    113
    Beautiful program. IMO, this is the first program of the sophisticated Michelle.
     
  23. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    4,935
    813
    113
    ITA, zigzag! About the music used for DoD, where is it from exactly -- you mention a compilation from random sources. Do you know more about this?

    Also, thanks for your post, TripleButz -- ITA :respec: No matter how some choreographers are overcoming the challenges presented by CoP, there is something missing, or OTOH, there is too much crammed into programs with no time for the skater to breathe or to fully make a connection with the audience. At this point, I don't know what the answer is, as some will say CoP has good aspects, most notably the opportunity for skaters to pull up after the sp. I do think the ISU needs to find a way to allow the lp/ free program to actually have more freedom of expression. Having to backtrack and constantly make adjustments to CoP is a result of the quick, forced way it was implemented.

    The brand is missing, the kiss 'n cry is generally unexciting for the most part, the magic has disappeared along with Kwan (and along with the way CoP eventually seemed to render Johnny Weir hopelessly frustrated -- in addition to other issues he faced, CoP seemed to take a toll on his artistry. His style of skating involves connecting with the music in subtly different ways for each performance, as can be seen in his many stellar exhibition programs).

    Instead of spending the off-season marveling over uplifting performances, we generally spend it carping about USFS favoritism and questionable judging, bemoaning the recently elusive 3 spots for the U.S. ladies, and playing ping pong over the minutiae of meaningless numbers. When I watch a competition, I hate the feeling of being drawn into the BS of season's best. :angryfire
     
  24. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    3,301
    472
    83
    I honestly think you live in my brain sometimes. ;) :)
     
  25. mpal2

    mpal2 Well-Known Member

    9,282
    1,524
    113
    Thanks for linking those. That was one of my favorite programs too.

    I always loved her 98/99 programs.
    Fate of Carmen
    Lamente D'Ariane
     
  26. DBZ

    DBZ Well-Known Member

    1,018
    168
    63
    I still can't believe that performance placed behind Kristi's "o :yawn: babbino caro" SP.
     
  27. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    546
    67
    28
    :D :respec: I totally agree with your statement!

    The free skate is really just a LONG short program with required elements. Thank goodness they got rid of the ladies' free skate spiral sequence requirement (although now, I do miss it in the short program). Basically, the free skate needs to be completely overhauled, IMO.

    Too bad we STILL have Speedy as president of the ISU (since 1994... HELLO; time for a change!). Let's not forget that he's not even a figure skater in the first place. Blech to politics and this obviously ridiculous situation.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  28. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

    9,012
    671
    113
    I believe it was a Hershey's ProAm styled event, no? (One of the early versions of the Hershey Kisses Figure Skating Challenge?) I remember Tara, Nicole, Todd, etc competing there...I had it on tape, but I literally just got rid of those tapes a month ago. :( Gah!
     
  29. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    17,432
    1,293
    113
    It was in Greensboro, NC! I was there! :cheer2:
     
  30. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

    1,689
    179
    63
    Someone find a video!