Michelle Kwan triple-triples video

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bartek, Jan 26, 2011.

  1. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Hi! I've been making video with Michelle's triple-triples for some time and I've almost finished but I'm lacking two combinations I think. Here is what I've already included in the video:

    1996 Nationals
    1997 GPF
    1997 Worlds
    1999 Nationals
    2000 Worlds
    2001 Worlds QR
    2001 Worlds
    2001 Goodwill Games
    2002 Worlds QR

    Can you tell me where she landed the rest? I also included her attempt at 3Lz+3L from 2001 SC and include combos from practise and warm-ups if I have ones. I have only 3T+3T from 2002 Olympics FS warm-up. I'd love to have 3S+3L from 2001 Worlds warm-up but I can't find it? Has anyone seen it?
  2. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think video ever surfaced of her 3sal/3loop during 2001 Worlds warmup. Unfortunate because I would have loved to see it. If it happened now I bet video would be everywhere but the day of videos popping up all the time had not yet begun in 2001 or was in its beginning stages.

    If you wanted you could also include GP events, she would have a few more if you did those but I know you have to draw the line somewhere.
  3. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    3T3T combos at 1995 Skate America, 1996 Champions Series Final, 1999 Skate America, 2001 GPF (1st LP, SOTBS)

    Peggy Fleming's mention of MK's 3sal-3loop in the 2001 Worlds FS warm up is the only record I know of -- I have never seen or heard of any record of this. I was there and I don't remember seeing it -- however, I do recall being very nervous during the final group's warmup, so I doubt if I would have even been aware of what I was seeing. :lol:
  4. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Thanks for help!
  5. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have always wondered if it was possible that Peggy got it wrong and that Michelle never warmed up 3sal/3loop. Maybe it was a 3/2? It seems funny that no one from the stands has ever talked about it or said they saw it.
  6. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    I always wondered whether Peggy had meant to say "practice" instead of warmup and that Peggy had seen Michelle do that combination earlier that day. Guess we'll never know for sure.
  7. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Terry or Peter (I never know) asked her about second triple-triple after Michelle hit her wondrful 3T+3T: "Peggy, would you advise it?". And she answered exactly this: "Well I think she should probably go for it, she's been practicing it the prectises this week, she just practised right before this program started
    and it looked very well so she very well could try that". Ok, she said it once, she might have meant to say practise but she said about warm-up once again right after Michelle landed 3S: "She was practising a triple salchow, triple loop in the warmp-up". I think that she wouldn't have repeated the same mistake. There's a chance someone has the warm-up, I'd love to see it and Irina probably also did some big combinations there.
  8. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    Let's remember Michelle tried to do combination with 3 loop in 2001/02 season, I think it's possible she warmed up 3s/3lo one year earlier.

    And I agree with Bartek that it seems impossble Peggy made the same mistake twice.
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    She was seen practicing 3loop3loops at 1997 SA in front of Lipinski and 3sal3loops and 3lutz3loops at 2001 SA in front of Hughes. Wouldn't surprise me if she practiced the 3sal3loop in front of Slutskaya at 2001 Worlds. Probably on competition ice to throw off Slutskaya's game plan?
  10. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I was surprised Michelle attempted the 3ltz-3lp at SC. The 3lp attempt was so tiny - barely any lift off the ice and Michelle was never a fast rotater in the air - that it made me think that she never landed that combo cleanly. If she landed it in practice then it the loop part was probably very cheated on the landing.
  11. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I think Michelle could have cleanly done the 3sal/3loop because her salchow simply flew across the ice and she always had such speed carrying through the landing. So she could use that momentum to make up somewhat for the fact that she wasn't a super fast rotator or big on height. Her 3lutz/3loop attempt was surely not her best and I have to believe she did better ones in practices or she would never have tried it in competition. I am not sure she would ever get one credited TODAY but she was not competing under COP and under rotations were very rarely taken into account unless they were more than 1/2 a rotation short, otherwise Slutskaya would have had some big issues during her time at the top.
  12. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I've already collected all triple-triples she landed in competitions. Now I'm searching for attempts from warm-ups and practise clips. I've come across 2002 Olympics warm-up with 3T+3T and the same combo from 2000 Worlds warm-up. Does anyone know something else?
  13. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    I seem to have a vague memory of a 3T-3T in some warm-up when she was wearing the lavender "Ariane" dress -- I guess that would be either from Nationals or Worlds in 1999. Of course, I could have "misremembered" that. :lol:
  14. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    The video is ready and available to watch. Here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzwg2cxpPq0

    Hope you like it! Please enjoy, share & comment!

    Could anyone put the adress of site with the video in the first post of this thread?
  15. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I'm pretty sure she did a 3-3 either in the warm-up or a televised practice at the 2002 Olympics.
  16. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I know she only ever successfully did 3toe/3toe but she really did them all so well. It was very rare for her to go for it and not do it cleanly and fully rotated. I think I saw one two footed attempt and maybe one that was slightly UR but that was towards the end of her 3/3 attempts in her career.
  17. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

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    I always loved how the second 3T was usually just as high, or sometimes even higher than the first one.
  18. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    My favourite 3-3s by Michelle were at nationals in 1999 and worlds in 2001
  19. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I agree with Nationals 1999, it's the best out of all, 2001 Worlds is also wonderful but the second toe is a bit underrotated. Today, it could have got 70% value.
  20. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle was really on at 2001 Worlds -- both her QR and FS programs had 7 triples, including 3T-3T. And I remember being worried that she wouldn't make it back on the ice in time for the QR, after the heel of her skate came loose during the warm-up. :eek: But she not only made it back, but she skated spectacularly.

    Seeing that 3T-3T from the SLC warm-up still makes me a bit :( . If only .... <sigh>
  21. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    I loved the quality of her 3T/3T & hated the fact that Dick & Peggy played it down so much. Listening to them, you would have thought that anyone could do it, it was so easy. And the fact is, very few of Michelle's competitors had any 3/3. I always thought, if it is so easy why aren't we seeing more of them?
  22. hydro

    hydro Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so, it was completely rotated.
  23. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Sorry but in the second jump she put her blade in the second 1/4 of a turn, though it was close to the borderline. Now it depends on the celler. It WAS underrotated. The first toe was actually a bit underrotated too but it certainly fitted into the first quarter. If you want I can make an extra slow motion of it and upload to mediafire.
  24. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    Because it was NOT that easy. Irina was always lauded as being so much superior to Michelle wrt triple-triple jumps. However, although Irina attempted "harder" triple-triples with 3loop instead of 3toe as the second jump, the actual quality of her triple-triples really wasn't superior to Michelle's "easy" 3T-3T (see other thread for evidence). She definitely went for them, but fell or fell out on many and others were greatly under-rotated. She did get amazing height on her jumps, but the landings weren't nearly as good as the air.

    I appreciate your making the compilations of Michelle's and Irina's triple-triple combinations, but is it really necessary to examine in super slo-mo detail whether a jump was closer to 300 or 260 degrees of revolution -- a decade after the fact? I guess some may think it worthwhile, but to me it seems just a tad excessive (actually more than just a bit). Obviously YMMV.
  25. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Well, I just wanted to say that I don't consider triple-triple from Worlds 2001 as the best. Why? Because it was underrotated. Then someone says it's rotated which is not true. This is why I came with an idea of making the slow motion. That's all :lol:

    Well, difficulty of Irina's combos is way bigger than Michelle's and even though her landing weren't as good she should be given some credit for landing something like 3Lz+3L, even if underroted or lack of flow. This is not only about the loop instead of a toeloop at the end. This is also about the first jump. 3Lz or 3 S instead of toeloop. 3Lz+3L is damn difficult and this is why I admire so much Irina and Miki for landing it.
  26. hydro

    hydro Well-Known Member

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    Sure, go ahead and make a super-duper slo mo of the video. You'll see it was not under-rotated by more than 1/4 of a turn. It was obviously a complete triple.
  27. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I do see the slight UR on her second 3toe at 2001 Worlds. It isn't visible at all from the first angle, you have to watch the replay of it. Not sure if it would be called but no more than < for sure. My favorite was 99 Nats and 99 Skate America. The first 3toe at 99 Skate America was huge and covered so much ice! Probably one of the best 3toes she ever did.
  28. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Re: Michelle's warmup where Peggy mentioned her practising the 3S+3Lo in '01-- I had the same question a while back in an old Kwan thread, and someone here on FSU did confirm that they did see that combo live, indeed. So, I'd be curious if that poster can come back and tell us how it looked at practice. ;)

    I'd love to see any videos surfacing of her 3+3loops attempt, however! The only one we have is '01 SC...same for Arakawa, i'd like to see her supposed 3lz+3loop in practice too....
  29. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    This
  30. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Arakawa's recent 3Lz+3L looks wonderful so I'm sure her attempts in her copetitive prime were as good as current ones. I'd love to see it as well. Btw, I'm preparing video with Shizuka's triple-triples as well.
  31. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    Here's one she attempted last year. :eek: :D
  32. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    I think the 3S+3Lo comment is one of those on-air commentary mistakes that has become legend.

    Michelle had two 3Lz and two 3T (in combination with each other) in her "Song of the Black Swan" program. After landing the 3T+3T, she couldn't attempt another 3Lo. I find it very hard to believe she would try a 3S+3Lo in warmup and risk injuring herself.

    Anyone who has ever seen Michelle warm-up (or do her runthroughs) knows she is very methodical. She doesn't just throw in jumps. This reminds me of postings I read about "new" triple-triple combinations she was trying after SLC. I was at these so-called events, and many sessions that were not open to the public, and never saw her even attempt one.

    There are tapes of the warmup from 2001 Worlds archived, but unless you know someone at ABC or CBC good luck getting them.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  33. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    I've spoken to people who were at the event and they all said she did the 3s/3r combo in warm up. It's wierd that it has never turned up on a video somewhere but there's more to the story than just some waffle from Peggy.
  34. Erin

    Erin Well-Known Member

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    They were much better in practice - I saw her land both the 3lz-3lp and 3s-3lp in a practice in Skate Canada. And while I wasn't scrutinizing for underrotations in the pre-COP days, I would have remembered if the cheat on the landing was extreme. I came away from that first practice at Skate Canada thinking that Kwan was well on her way to being Olympic champ. It was quite a shock for her to instead have her worst competitive result in over 6 years at that competition.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  35. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    I think I saw just about ALL of Irina's comps & I remember very few 3/3's of hers that I was impressed with. Her 3/3 combos were usually messy & those not cheated generally had iffy landings. Her single jumps were usually high & powerful, which is why she got the jumper reputation but Michelle actually had way more clean 3/3's than Irina. IMO even Irina's 3T/3T's weren't better than Michelle's. Michelle's runout on her jumps was usually superior to her competition.
  36. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, I find it hard to believe, but I didn't claim anyone was lying. If you have multiple reliable sources who were there, good on you.

    Interesting that Kwan's camp didn't feel that two 3Lz and a 3T+3T combination were enough in the fall of 2001. Irina's 3S+3Lo was inconsistent, and no one was doing two triple-triple combinations save for Sarah Hughes (and that was only at the Olympics).

    Nowadays, people are winning championship medals with nothing harder than a 3Lo.
  37. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    Well, Irina attempted two triple-triples programs several times before 2001 Worlds and once she even succeded (2000 GPF). Michelle and the judges knew that Irina's both triple-triples were much more difficult than Kwan's 3T+3T, maybe that's the reason why Michelle thought about adding another triple-triple.
  38. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Well if Michelle had a real coach for that season instead of Danny Kwan ... :shuffle:

    Michelle was constantly bombarded that season with questions regarding the 3-3 and doing harder 3-3 to match Irina's and possibly Sarah's. In hindsight, if Michelle had skated her own game she would've won the competition for sure, but she let outside pressures to up her ante affected her more than it should. But then again it was THE Olympic and at home to boot, so the pressures on her must've been almost unbearable.
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  39. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    I had never seen this! :eek::eek: And this was done just last summer?? She probably would have made a better comeback than Sasha :lol:
  40. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I always loved her 3sal, and I wish she'd focused on learning 3toe...3sal series. She could repeat the 3sal, which is a touch more valuable than 3toe, and you'd think it would take some pressure off of her right hip. It seems like it would have been a more practical avenue to pursue than 3anything 3loop combinations.