Menshov Snubbed for World Figure Skating Champs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sugar, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. Sugar

    Sugar Well-Known Member

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    Menshov Snubbed for World Figure Skating Champs
    http://en.rsport.ru/other_sports/20130222/647071337.html
    MOSCOW, February 22 (R-Sport) - Russian figure skating star Konstantin Menshov has been denied a place at next month's world championships despite appearing to meet a prerequisite set by officials.

    Menshov, 29, was reportedly told he would have to put in a worthy performance at this week's Russian Cup Final to be considered for Russia's only place in the men's singles event at the March 11-17 championships in London, Ontario.

    Menshov, a former national champion, won the event in the Russian city of Tver outright, posting a better score than the man who is to take his place in Canada, Maxim Kovtun, at last month's European championships in Zagreb.

    The Figure Skating Federation of Russia justified the move by saying the 17-year-old Kovtun has a better chance of finishing in the top ten, which would grant Russia two entrants into the Sochi 2014 Winter Olympic program.

    "In the opinion of experts and the executive committee of the (federation), Kovtun has better chances of getting into the top ten skaters in the world than the other national pretenders," the federation said in a website statement, adding other stars in Artur Gachinski and Sergei Voronov had also been considered.
     
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    Do we really need a separate thread in GSD for more :argue:? ;)

    ETA: Does the Russian federation website state Menshov would be considered for WTT or has he already been promised a spot? Excerpt from the IN article yesterday, which isn't clear on this point:
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    I guess this should be merged with the other thread. I thought it was a done dirty deal anyway, but oh boy! I don't dislike Kovtun -- he is just unfortunate to be caught up in this :drama: However, I hope Kovtun places outside of the top ten at Worlds. Menshov was having a respectable season, and there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't be able to place higher or as high as Kovtun at Worlds. Does the kid have solid quads!? This would be Kovtun's first time at Worlds too, and as a junior-age skater. Russian fed is obviously rushing Kovtun with their eyes set squarely on Sochi Olympics. Oh, the politiking that will be going on in London, Ontario very shortly.

    Figure skating is a difficult enough sport without feds having the power to :kickass: their skaters around.
     
  4. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Sorry, I just can't get over the bolded part. National PRETENDERS? Their own federation calling them pretenders.

    Perhaps the federation should be reminded once again of the finishing order at Nationals...coz if Voronov, Menshov and Gachinski are pretenders, that doesn't look so good for Kovtun.
     
  5. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on. I am sure that something was lost in translation and that the word was initially 'contenders' or something. :)

    [or what morqet said below ;)]
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  6. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ :lol: Oh come on, Tony, how can you be so sure about that! ;) Yes, it is more likely tho' that the translator confused "pretenders" with "contenders." Or, that if it was said in English, the person misspoke due to not having a good understanding of English vocabulary, or else it was simply a Freudian slip-of-the-tongue. :p

    In any case, maybe Russian fed PTB thought the pressure on Menshov at the extra event they forced him to compete at, would be so great that he might slip up. But no, Menshov is a consistent jumper with a lot of incentive to show them up.

    At this point, I wonder is there any possibility Menshov might have to compete for another country where he may have distant ancestral ties?
     
  7. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    As he is 29 years old, I'd say his career is pretty much done after this whole drama. Even if he were to try to skate for another country for next year, he'd have to somehow miraculously get citizenship in less than a year, and he'd also have to rely on someone else from said country to basically earn the spot that he'd steal away come Sochi. He competed on the Grand Prix this year for Russia, so he can't skate in Nebelhorn next year (early-season) for a different country in hopes of earning a spot that way.

    Just clarifying for my own knowledge- singles skaters have to sit out a year from when they last competed internationally, correct? I know it is (was) true of pairs and dancers.
     
  8. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    A pretender is an aspirant or claimant to a throne that is now occupied by another. So if we consider that the "throne" is occupied by Plushenko as the current national champion, it's a perfectly valid descriptor & not in the least insulting.

    He landed a quad in the SP and 2 in the FS at Euros, and a quad in the free at JGPF, so I'd say yeah, he does. FWIW, he's also received a higher international score than Menshov has managed this season, even though he zayaked.
     
  9. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yeah, okay, morqet thanks for clarifying re variant meaning/ understanding of "pretenders" which has slightly morphed in American usage I suppose. ;)

    So yes the kid, Kovtun, has the almighty quad as a weapon (so important among men these days), and TAT at his side and the powerful Russian fed solidly in force behind him. Now, let's see if he lands those weapons of his under Worlds pressure. (((Sigh))) (so unfortunate for Menshov). Anyways, I guess I should concede that Kid Kovtun is no pretender then, but indeed a contender at Worlds, especially with TAT and Russian fed providing some weighty back-up.

    Kovtun is also a nice looking young chap with wonderful body lines. Still, IMO, he should have been allowed a chance to develop a bit further without all the pressure, scrutiny and the controversial drama. And Menshov's great showing this season should have been honored.


    Thanks for the info, Tony. I believe you are correct re the wait involved when switching countries (and also the citizenship complications coupled with Menshov's age).
     
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    ISU Rule 109 states:
     
  11. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    So that basically seals the deal for Menshov. If I were him, I don't even know if I would want to attempt competing next season even if Kovtun does earn two spots. It'll probably be a case of "No matter what you do, we have to give Evgeny his last chance and then send someone else that isn't 30," regardless of any results.

    I feel horrible for the guy, honestly.
     
  12. Lacey

    Lacey Well-Known Member

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    Tragic.
     
  13. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Sugar – thank you for starting this thread. I really think this issue deserves one. :angryfire

    Russian Figure skating officials for sure hoped that Menshov would screw up, but no, once again he didn’t do what fitted into Russian Fed’s plans. Such a bad guy! :lol:

    That’s simply not true. You probably red too much of Russian Fed’s Propaganda. :p Here are the personal bests of both skaters this season at international senior events:

    Kovtun: 225,02 at Euros 2013 (with an overscored SP and some questionable GOE on some of his jumps considering his awkward technique!).
    Menshov: 238,63 at NRW Trophy right before Russian Nats (1 Quad in SP, 2 in the LP and he beat European Bronze medallist Brezina there!)

    So even if the Zayak-combo would have counted, Kovtun’s score would still have been below Menshov’s. (This is just for statistics – actually I think mentioning Kovtun zayaked is not a good argument, cause elite skaters should be aware of this rule, of course unless they are Oda. :D)

    Here is more maths – the average scores of both skaters this season at international competitions (= no Russian Nats or Russian Cup)
    Kovtun: 214,89 (2 JGP, JGPF, Euros) – would have placed him 15th at last worlds, the season’s PB best would have been enough for 10th place.
    Menshov: 223,25 (2 GP, Nebelhorn, NRW) – would have placed him 11th at last Worlds, the season’s PB would have been enough for 7th place.

    Given such statistics it’s a miracle to me, how Russian Fed can argue that with Kovtun they will have higher chances to get 2 spots for Sochi. This in particular when you also consider that Kovtun reached his scores with the Fed supporting him strongly, while Menshov achieved his scores without having any support by his fed, which usually has quite some influence on the marks judges hand out. :rolleyes:
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Menshov has been really consistent! Even the sp at Russian nationals there was a problem but he didn't take himself out and would win bronze over former golden boy gachinski and new golden boy kovtun. Hope kovtun does well otherwise it's really kind of menshov 2- golden boys 0, kind of for this season! kovtun has seen rapid improvement but pre Olympic worlds in Canada Isnt like anything he's ever experienced and he's young so maturity Is questionable. Yeah tarasova is a great coach and coached yagudin and everything but you're just going to trust her and him based on her? Seems like that's the plan!!
     
  15. umronnie

    umronnie Active Member

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    Poor menshov is as unlucky as Sasha Abt or Ilia Klimkin. Not as talented as the other two but a solid skater and - more importantly - a very determined young man.
    Can you imagine the stubborness it takes to stick at it till you're 30, when the backing of your federation goes, again and again, to some bright young star who flashes and burns, or the old master who's health is failing? I have nothing but admiration for the guy.
    I hope he gets to go to WTT and show the young upstart how it's done.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Clearly the Russian fed seems to believe that they don't want to invest in a 30-year old; they would rather give experience to a 17-year old. However, they are playing with fire in a pre-Olympic year. Kovtun is still untested at the senior level. Menshov will not win a medal at worlds, but he gives them a better chance of getting at least 2 spots at the Olympics. I am not at all convinced that Plushenko will make it to worlds this year, or to Sochi next year, no matter how much he wants it. What if Kovtun does not develop? Many Russian men who showed promise in the past did not really make it (latest example: Gachinski). They are making a huge mistake, IMO.
     
  17. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Um, you mean the back surgery hasn't totally convinced you?

    And Gachinski is not a valid example; he's nineteen. He's still a baby.
     
  18. morqet

    morqet Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I was just going off the ISU season best list. But I don't think Kovtun's SP was overscored at Euros :p
     
  19. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    No, it hasn't because I read that Plushenko is still planning on competing.

    A 19 year old is not a 'baby' in figure skating, Gachinski was a very hyped skater since he was 12, and he did have a good year. He has had a terrible year this season. Some skaters have made comebacks; others have not. I am not writing him off yet, but he has clearly not lived up to the expectations. He may not actually make it to the top, the way he was expected to, when you look at what the current top skaters in the world are doing. He may not have the mental makeup of a champion.
     
  20. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    He's not competing at Worlds this year. He's already said that. Mishin's already said that. He's not even going to be back on the ice by the time Worlds comes around.
     
  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    :huh:

    He's just had back surgery.
     
  22. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    You forgot he's no ordinary being .... he's bionic, Ziggy.:p
     
  23. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    ITA
     
  24. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    Well, talking about talent I agree that Sasha Abt and Ilia Klimkin were in a different league than Menshov in terms of the overall package. However, if Sasha had quads as reliable as Menshov’s, he’d probably given even Plushenko a run for his money. ;)

    As unlucky as Abt and Klimkin might have been in their careers, I think with regards to bad treatment by their own fed we now have a new leader, cause Menshov beats both of them easily in this respect. Actually I think Klimkin got Russian Fed pretty much behind him when he was younger, only when he didn’t produce the results they expected at Euros and Worlds, Russian Fed kind of let him down (though of course one can’t blame him for that, as he was really struggling with injuires that time :().

    Abt definitely had “special relations” with his Fed and what they did to him in 1998 was simply distasteful and pure robbery. However, he was at least given a chance to skate at GPs regularly and managed to skate at Euros and Worlds a couple of times. Menshov on the other hand even when he placed within top 5 at Russian Nats, didn’t receive a chance to skate at GP a couple of times in the past, but instead younger skaters who placed behind him. And the handing out of this year’s spots for Euros and Worlds beats the travesty that was going on in 1998 by miles! :angryfire


    I have deep respect for Menshov and the way he skated at Russian Cup Final. Not many skaters would have been able to motivate themselves to fight again, in particular as he and his coach probably knew that Fed made their irrevocable choice. I found the decision after Russian Nats really unfair without being in the camp of one or the other skater, but the way Menshov acted after Russian Nationals changed that and actually turned me into a fan. Great sportsmanship! :respec:

    On the other hand I think Kovtun really showed lack of this quality by not showing up at Russian cup final. I don’t blame him for taking the undeserved spot at Euros, cause it would have been stupid to reject. But for Worlds it would have been in his hand to compete at that event and prove that he is better than the other guys and should go to worlds instead of leaning back at let mama tarasova politicking his way to worlds. Though one of course might argue that such egoism is quality of a champion – sad enough you probably won’t win many medals with always being the nice guy! :(
     
  25. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Menshov LP was a hot mess at the Russia cup event, his landing of the jumps was really uncontrolled and would have received -ve GOEs internationally. If you trying to fight for the lone spot available against an opponent who did 2 quads and 2 triple axels at the europeans, and finished 5th place at the europeans, then the performance Menshov gave was definitely not good enough. Kovtun secured his spot for the worlds with the performance at the Europeans. Menshov would have had to go clean, absolutely clean to have been selected for the Worlds team. Remember Russia cup is not Russian nationals part 2, Russia cup is only used if the federation feels the performance at the Europeans was not good enough. A clean performance with 2 quads and 2 triple axels with finishing 5th, I guess was considered good enough. If Menshov wants to considered again he will have to finish in the top two at the nationals.
     
  26. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    There was no chance of that with Tarasova politiking hard. And Voronov skated well. But a third place at Nationals should have been enough. To send the fifth-place for no apparent reason was ridiculous.

    The Russian fed have made it clear that they do not care where Menshov finishes, they will never consider him.
     
  27. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    All I wanna know is what was the point of the skate-off? Why didn't they just announce their decision, if the experts already agree that Kovtun has a better chance at placing in the top 10?? It's the whole false-hope angle of this drama that get me.

    Hang in there Menshov
     
  28. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Russian Cup was always going to be held, and it was not an official skate-off (that would have been Nationals). They just made it clear to withhold the world team decisions until after it.

    I agree this competition has no reference value for the mens because Kovtun was not there. However, this gave them a good excuse to justify sending Leonova despite her being horrible all year. I mean, suddenly Kotvun's 5th at Euros was good enough, but not Gosviani's 6th?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  29. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I hate to break it to you guys, but if the 5th place finisher at Nationals can place higher than the silver medalist at Europeans, with Zayaking, then doesn't it kind of give an argument to send that guy to Worlds, with the argument that internationally he is more likely to score/place higher? And where Kovtun beat Voronov at Europeans, and Voronov beat Menshov at Nationals, well then, syllogistically, Kovtun > Menshov as well.

    Basically Euros confirmed Kovtun can get pretty good PCS when he lands his jumps, he needed to be sent to a senior event to gauge what his PCS would be at a senior international, and because he had only competed as a junior internationally before, and so once Euros showed his PCS to be comparable to what Menshov and Vornov get internationally, he's the logical candidate because it comes down to technical ability, and Kovtun is ridiculous when it comes to that. He has 4t-3t and even when the 4t takes off like sideways, usually he lands it. His 3a is a rock. He landed both 3a in the bonus section of his FS at Europeans! I know Voronov and Menshov are also capable of such jumps, but the quality and consistency isn't usually as good, and neither tries for two 3a in the bonus. This isn't a Jeremy Abbott situation where one of Voronov or Menshov is a star artist with a large PCS cushion over other candidates so why not send the strongest technical skater to the Worlds? i'll admit the sending of Kovtun to Europeans was questionable but given what happened there I'm not surprised at all to see him on the Worlds team.

    Don't forget, Nan Song beat Han Yan at Nationals, with higher PCS. Yan had never been to a senior international before, so Chinese Fed did not know really what kind of PCS marks to expect from him at an international championship, then 4CC happens and Yan beats Song handily in PCS and overall. Now it is unclear who goes to Worlds because it seems Yan may be the better candidate, his technical abilities are comparable to Song but his PCS are better. Maybe if Yan had competed as a senior this fall instead of junior, the Nationals results would have been different as they would have caught on that the international judges regard Yan more highly from a PCS standpoint. The situation, if Yan ends up getting sent, is really very comparable.
     
  30. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    It is rRussia cup finals and not called skate-off, it is teh finals of athletes based on teh qualification using the Russia cup events. The event gets its significance only when the athletes sent to Europeans does not do a good enough job...