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Mass Shootings: How Do We Stop Them?

Discussion in 'Politically Incorrect' started by Cachoo, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    From New York Magazine:
    "Not counting drive-bys, gang ambushes, and *domestic homicides (and countless cases in which gunfire at parks, bars, and shopping malls pierced flesh but did not take lives), there were more than 125 fatal mass shootings in the United States during the years between the Columbine killings and the massacre at the Century 16 theater in Aurora, Colorado."

    And now the unspeakable carnage in CT and Oregon. Is gun control the answer?
     
  2. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    It's not the sole solution. Mass shootings do sometimes occur in countries with much stricter gun control that the United States. We need better mental health care too.
     
  3. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a link? What number is "sometimes" in comparison to the 125 referred to above? Is there anywhere that has the large number of mass shootings that the US has, and stricter gun controls? I don't think there is a guarantee there would be none, but I think stricter gun control would reduce mass shootings.
     
  4. modern_muslimah

    modern_muslimah Thinking of witty user title and coming up blank

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    We need stricter gun control but I'm not sure that would've prevented all of the shootings that have occurred since Columbine. The perpetrators of all these mass killings seemed hell bent on causing misery for others and often themselves. They're deeply disturbed. Their crimes were often planned. If they didn't have access to guns, I think some would've found other ways to kill unfortunately. Yes, we need strict gun control but how do we deal with the other causes of these tragedies?
     
  5. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

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    I was listening to CNN and they had on a ex FBI assistant director. He was asked by Wolf Blitzer how these mass shootings can be stopped. The FBI guy said..there is no way to stop them. He said as long as we don't fix our Mental Health system and make firearms easily available nothing will change. He then went on to say that his daughter was on the same dorm floor at VaTech that the shooter first entered. He said nothing in VA's laws have changed after that shooting. People are all upset for about a week and then they forget or don't care anymore. I think Wolf was a little stunned by the FBI guys opinion.
     
  6. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers#Europe

    Norway, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, and Finland, where some of the worst incidents have happened, all have much tougher gun laws than the U.S.

    Stricter gun laws in the U.S. would reduce mass shootings, but so would better mental health programs. Most other developed countries have universal health care, which usually includes mental health services.
     
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  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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    They can happen anywhere, but if you compare the frequency, it is much worse in the USA. Nobody can prevent it 100%, but here in the USA we have made it much easier (than other countries) for anyone to go out and kill lots of people on a whim. How many times did something like this happen in the countries you mentioned? We have already seen at least 3 mass shootings in less than 6 months (July- CO, Dec. - OR and CT, and I may be missing one). It is the frequency that bothers me more, and it seems to be getting worse.

    ETA: I forgot about the Wisconsin temple, which was shortly after the CO shootings, I think.
     
  8. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the shooting with the most dead, killed with a single weapon, happened in Australia. After that, we changed our gun laws. Not one mass shooting since. And the mass murderer in Port Arthur had/has mental health issues, and we have nationalised health care. You can say a lot about mental health care, but the fact is, even if it is known that people have a mental illness (like Martin Bryant, the one who cause Port Arthur massacre in Australia), neither the police or the mental health system can do anything unless a crime is committed, or they know a crime is going to be committed.

    Australia had a gun buy-back scheme after the Port Arthur massacre, and changed gun laws significantly. Sure there are still illegal guns out there, and we have shootings, but nothing like this, and with nowhere near the same frequency. I don't think anywhere in the world has mass shootings as much as the US, regardless of the gun laws or health systems. I'm not saying the mental health system in the US can't be improved, it probably can - as can the majority of health systems, nationalised or not, but gun control would play a bigger role in reducing mass shootings IMO.
     
  9. kylet3

    kylet3 Well-Known Member

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    Laws aside and what laws are actually needed, how about the politicians in the USA actually having a discussion about gun laws or lack thereof? Any time these tragedies happen, people always say now is not the time for discussion, and then all we get is the NRA and their fundraising and concerned about people's rights to have guns in the first place. What I believe is needed is a long, frank discussion about some kind of gun laws in the United States and what is needed in order to try and prevent these kinds of incidents from occurring in the first place. When anyone tries to speak up about this, the NRA does whatever they can in the next election cycle to ensure that person is defeated. There is an absence of courage in the politicians because they fear the wrath of the pro-gun lobby. I'm not saying super strict gun control is the answer, I'm not an expert, I don't know what the answer is, but when you look at countries such as Japan or Great Britain with very strict gun laws, these kinds of incidents are much rarer in occurrence.

    Now, more than ever is the time for the people who matter most and can enact change to have the discussions that are needed in order to try and prevent this kind of thing from happening. Do I expect anything to happen? Absolutely not, especially with the divided government and the nuts in the Republican House Conference who will stop any kind of real gun legislation from happening, which is truly sad. Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and say enough is enough, have the strength to say that change is needed, because this kind of thing is going to keep happening until real change is enacted.
     
  10. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    One aspect of these shootings that I'm curious about is the gender of the shooter. I don't know if it is ever a girl or woman. And I want to know why: Is there something we are not giving males that females are getting to keep them from engaging in this appalling behavior?
     
  11. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    We need a change in culture above all. Teach our children (I'll say it - teach our boys) that violence is NOT going to solve real-world problems. Nip it in the bud. Yes, there will always be the truly deranged who will stop at nothing to kill others, but we have an epidemic here.

    Other countries have the same access to violent video games and movies, but they don't make the jump from fiction to reality. In the US, we have a fixation (dare I say, glorification) on "tough manly men" who don't discuss their issues and just fight out their problems. That if they feel weak, they can hurt other people to show their power.

    That's just my very simple-minded belief, though. I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than that, but there's something about the American culture that makes us pick up a gun instead of trying non-violent ways.

    And of course gun control. There's no good reason a private citizen should own a military-level firearm. China's situation with untreated mental illness is quite well-known, and the school knife attacks are terrible, but it's much less likely to kill as many people. That's just reality.
     
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  12. Asli

    Asli Well-Known Member

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    Some of those events are not relevant to a discussion about gun control. For instance, only one eventis listed for France and actually that was a series of attacks by an islamist terrorist. Terrorist obtain their arms illegally anyway.

    Also the only incident that took place in Norway seems to be a 9-year-old kid firing a gun twice in the schoolyard before a teacher went and took his gun away. Noone was injured. So it's rather unfair to put them on your list. ;)

    Improving mental health is a long-term goal though, isn't it? How many victims will there be till then - even if this is possible!
     
  13. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Uhhh....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
     
  14. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    How soon we forget. :(

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259356
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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    ITA.
     
  16. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Past Prancer's Corridor

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  17. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    In Canada, after the 1989 École Polytechnique massacre, there was a serious debate about gun control (which resulted in the gun registry--which has now been scrapped thanks to the Conservatives but will at least be resurrected in Quebec hopefully) *and* violence against women (which resulted in the Status of Women).

    Not sure why the discussion of gun control has to be set aside so a specific social issue (as if the conservative movement has a stance on something like the treatment of mental illness) can be discussed. Well, I know why...
     
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  18. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IMO, gun control is something that we can do (or at least, try to get it enacted). Improving accessibility to mental health services will help only those that seek the services, which isn't something we can control (there are a huge set of other problems if it is made too easy to force third persons to get mental health care)
     
  19. rfisher

    rfisher At least I still have Pairs to look forward to

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    What do you do to prevent something like this? The guns belonged to the mother. They were legally purchased and registered according to CT's laws, yet her mentally ill son, the brother has said there was a history, got them and used them in a horrific manner. Probably, because he'd recently argued with his mother since she was the target. Ban all guns? Not going to happen and shouldn't happen for a number of reasons. I have no issues with tigher control over the sale of guns, the requirement that owners attend gun safety classes, have gun safes----all the things that would help protect a child with a gun in the house, yet none of that would have prevented this tragedy. Yet, we don't want to do anything about the mentally ill who don't seek help, go off their meds, are ignored by family, friends and society.
     
  20. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    A Facebook post from Captain Mark Kelly: http://t.co/ErT3Adtj

    "As we mourn, we must sound a call for our leaders to stand up and do what is right. This time our response must consist of more than regret, sorrow, and condolence. The children of Sandy Hook Elementary School and all victims of gun violence deserve leaders who have the courage to participate in a meaningful discussion about our gun laws - and how they can be reformed and better enforced to prevent gun violence and death in America. This can no longer wait."
     
  21. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Liza, Julia, Elena, Evgenia, Russian pairs

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  22. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Who are these "anti-gun" people who do not want to deal with mental illness issues?
     
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  23. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Eh, then you have the nutjob in China who stabbed 22 kids and an elderly adult today. Global problem.
     
  24. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    And none were seriously injured because he didn't have a gun. This is a perfect example of why Americans need better gun control.
     
  25. rfisher

    rfisher At least I still have Pairs to look forward to

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    Insurance pays only 50% for most mental illness. There is nothing done if someone who exhibits problematic signs in school or elsewhere who chooses not to seek treatment or chooses to stop. We can't "infringe" on their personal liberty. We can't make people seek treatment and when they do something like this, and every incident of a mass murder has been done by someone who has been determined to suffer some sort of mental issues, all is said is we need tighter gun controls. This guy didn't lie to obtain a gun; didn't order it online with no background check; didn't cross state lines from a strict gun law state to a less restrictive state to buy. I have to wonder exactly what type of gun control apart from preventing no private ownership of guns (so his mother wouldn't have bought them, would have prevented this tragedy? Yet, might it have been prevented if he'd been restricted in some way? The nursing faculty whose office is next to mine has a son who has all sorts of "problems" which she chooses to ignore until he hurts her. I wouldn't be the least surprised if he did something similar to this after one of their screaming fights. You can hear her screaming at him on the phone throughout the building. Yet, nothing is or would be done until he's hurt somebody.

    I don't pretend to have any answers. Sociopaths are not normal and societal conventions and laws don't apply to them. The rules don't matter. So, exactly how do we protect ourselves from them? And, according to the news article, two of those children in China were seriously injured.

    And, this shooter didn't use assault weapons. He used a semi-automatic handgun. They are not the same thing. I haven't seen how many clips he may have had, but a full clip glock typically has 15-30 rounds depending on the model. Now, that is more than enough to do damage particularly against terrified children in a confined area. But, so would any semiautomatic or non-semiautomatic hand gun for that matter. But, this was not an AK-47 semiautomatic assault rifle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
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  26. jenny12

    jenny12 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't think most people who are anti-gun are saying that gun control is the only thing we have to do. Yes, better mental illness services, better education, etc. is all part of it, but stricter gun laws can only help, especially stricter bans on assault weapons. The China stabbing was horrible, but how many of those children died compared to what happened today?
     
  27. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Sure, the damage was less, but the insanity was parallel, and lack of government-provided health care can't be blamed for the Chinese incident.
     
  28. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    And why can't it be?
     
  29. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    You have a shockingly short memory and obviously didn't look at the second link.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  30. overedge

    overedge not your emotional support turkey

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    Gun control isn't going to stop every incident - I agree that a lot more needs to be done to help those with mental health issues - but at least gun control could make it more difficult for would-be mass shooters to arm themselves.