Maria Butyrskaya- underappreciated skater

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Vash01, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. Nours

    Nours Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    So many wrong facts, I don't even want to start.

    Just, surely, judges showed she was a poor skater and didn't like her when she won her first international : 1992 Skate Canada. She also did a lot of good back to back performances but people only remember her bad competitions. She won, as previously said, russians nationals six time including 5 in a row in a field with Slutskaya, Sokolova, Volchkova, Soldatova, Ivanova and Markova ; she won Euros 3 times, including 2002...

    She was totally robbed many times and it shows so much in her skating toward the end of her career. So much bitterness. Specially her two last ones.

    I totally loved her 2001 LP and why she didn't trashed Hughes for at least a bronze still escape me. I mean, a beautiful choreo and expression plus a triple triple seq versus what was basically a junior's skate with cheated triples ? But yes, the little girls often win against the real skaters.
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. barrhaven

    barrhaven New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    22
    When was she robbed ever?

    1996 Worlds? Possible but she landed only 5 triples if we count her two footed triple lutz, vs Irina 6 clean ones, and only 1 jump combination to 3 for Irina. Had she landed the last triple loop she had the bronze, but she fell on it. Irina fell on her first triple lutz, but threw it in later to make up for it so it didnt hurt her.

    1998 Olympics? Some say she was but she had her worst skate all season with only 2 or 3 clean triples, no triple clean harder than the triple loop, no triple combination, and skated stiff, tenative, and without her usual flow and grace. That she nearly won the bronze with such a poor skate show the judges were willing to give her atleast that but she didnt deliver. Lu and Irina both tried and landed more triples and more difficult ones, made fewer mistakes, and skated with more energy, attack, and smoothness.

    2000 Worlds? She could have been put 2nd in the long over Irina to give her the title but the judges probably thought it would be cruel to deny Kwan the gold with a very good Q round skate, clean and excellent short, and all time great long program vs Maria with an ok Q round skate, outstanding short program, and flawed 5 triple long program so scored it accordingly after the performances of Michelle, Maria, and Irina made it all possible. Had she duplicated her not clean but slightly better Q round LP even she probably would have taken atleast 2nd in the long over Irina and defended her title.

    2001 Worlds? Perhaps but she didnt skate in the final flight of the short after bombing the Q round. 2 or 3 judges put her 2nd over a clean Kwan (she was the only one besides Irina to have votes over Michelle in the short), but some had her as low as 7th. Overall the ordinals worked out to put her just behind Angela who skated her best short ever, and Hughes who had harder jumps and was clean, so it was mostly bad luck. Had she not bombed the Q round she would have been in the final flight and put atleast 3rd for the same performance. Then her long she had a chance to be 1st or 2nd which she needed to even win the bronze but doubled her 2nd triple lutz and had several shaky landings to lose that. You forget she did beat Hughes clean 7 triple, difficult triple-triples skate in the LP but it wasnt enough to pass her overall and all started with her bombing the Q round. Like usual she was her own worst enemy.

    1996 Grand Prix final? I guess she could have been placed 2nd over Kwan and Slutskaya, but she missed her only triple lutz attempt which was considered more important than the triple flip Irina missed, and Michelle even if she had some huge errors landed some way more difficult things and had a more polished and exquisite program.

    That is pretty much it and as you can see each had reasonable explanations for the judges placements too. The judges were willing to give her 6 straight World medals (1996-2001), 3 Grand Prix final titles (1998, 2000, 2001), atleast 2 World titles (1999, 2000), atleast 1 Olympic medal (1998) had she skated to her potential, despite that she isnt even that great or special a skater even on her best day. How is that harshly treated. She might have even won the 2002 Olympics if she skated her best considering she barely lost to Hughes in the short and Hughes ended up with the gold. For a skater of her level to have this many opportunities is not underrating. If anything it is overrating and maybe she benefits from the Russian flag on her back to even have had this many chances, many which she didnt take but that is her own fault. Yes she has to skate perfectly to get these things, and often 1 or 2 mistakes and they were gone. She doesnt have some outstanding technical merit or stunning artistry that she should get a big mistake cushion, and those who think she should have a deluded view of her abilities.


    1992 Skate Canada btw, that was great, but it was an awful weak event. Chouinard and Harding both landed like 1 triple. Still she showed great promise and should have come top 10 at the 93 Worlds but she didnt and instead produced an all time embarassment for the Russian fed by losing their Olympic ladies spot(s) altogether, and then took another 3 years to start finding her way, by time she was already 23. Even Skate Canada she was already 20. You start your rise at such an advanced age you will naturally be seen as less of someone your fed wants to rely on to beat Michelle Kwan than a rising 16 year old with huge jumps and super spins.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  3. Excidra

    Excidra New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,502
    Slutskaya>>>>>>Butyrskaya. :cool:
     
  4. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,039
    I saw her 2001 LP (and SP) live, and it was beautiful. She should have defeated Hughes who was like a junior skater. The 6.0 did not penalize ur jumps and that worked in Hughes' favor. IMO Maria should have received higher artistic marks for that performance.
     
  5. barrhaven

    barrhaven New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    22
    She did defeat Sarah Hughes in the LP though. Why arent people getting this. The judges did not place her below Sarah Hughes in the LP. She lost a medal since she hadnt done well in the other programs and was too far behind. She totally bombed the Q round, which already cost her any chance of gold or silver when Michelle and Irina won their qualifying rounds, and put her in a big hole to even get the bronze. Then she didnt do that well in the short program either. She now needed to place 1st or 2nd in the long over one or both of Michelle and Irina just to win the bronze. She skated well and beat a perfect Hughes in the LP, but did not do a strong enough technical performance with only 6 triples, doubling her 2nd triple lutz, lots of shaky landings, and no triple-triple combination, to justify beating either Michelle or Irina so was not able to make up the ground she had to pass Hughes for the bronze. She was the only skater to get 5.9s for presentation (I think she got 4) besides Michelle Kwan, and the only skater who any of the judges gave a higher presentation mark than Kwan. So she was not undermarked, and she did not lose to Sarah Hughes in the LP, she lost a medal by her other programs.

    Alot of the crying for poor wuzrobbed Maria in this thread is all based on things that arent accurate to reality. The judges did not cost her a medal at the 98 Olympics, she cost herself it by skating a poor long program and still lost it by only .1 to an inspired Chen who skated her best. The judges did not cost her the bronze to Irina at the 96 Worlds, she cost herself it by falling near the end and landing less triples and combinations than Slutskaya. The judges did not cost her winning more than one World title, she cost herself it by not skating a clean long program at the 2000 Worlds. The judges not place cost her the bronze at the 2001 Worlds, she cost herself it by a horrible qualifying round skate, a so so short program, and not doing 7 triples to win the long program. The judges did not cost her a medal at the 2002 Olympics. She cost herself the chance by skating an awful long program. It was all Maria's fault she didnt win more medals and titles, not the judges.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  6. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    7,384
    I know and understand this was a joke in response to what made Maria's skating mature. But anyone at any age can have incontinence, and there are several reasons and factors why that may occur. It doesn't just happen to mature people or the elderly. Some jokes really aren't always appropriate and perhaps some should think twice before they hit that reply button.

    And regarding what made Maria's skating mature ... I'm not sure if that's meant in a good way or a bad way. I just know that Maria had grace and was very eloquent on the ice. I loved watching her skate and always will. I still watch videos of her skating and appreciate what she accomplished on the ice.
     
    OliviaPug and (deleted member) like this.
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,039
    Even Frank Carroll once said - "Maria is a beautiful beautiful skater". She was at her peak then.
     
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    In turn, I think Maria respected Carroll and Kwan as well. I remember reading many years ago (though I can't find the article now) that Maria Butryskaya said she would have given Kwan the gold in SLC. I don't know how much of that is because she really thought Kwan should have beaten Irina in the SP and LP and how much of that was her animosity towards Irina. Also, how bad was the relationship between Irina and Maria? I only remember at the time, it was accepted that there was no love lost between the two, but I don't know if that was just a fan-perpetuated myth or if there was truth to that.
     
  9. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Messages:
    10,791
    She was 26 when she won Worlds, though she did win Europeans at the age of 29.

    It's hard to argue when seeing her late 90s programmes, and in particular her 2000 SP. I'd add, as someone else did earlier, her :inavoid: performances from the early 1990s, which I don't suppose were broadcast outside of Europe. They must be available now though; her SPs from 1993 and 1994 are especially strange and strong.
     
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,039
    IIRC I saw her skate around 1995-1996 and thought she had a lot of potential, but she was not getting high marks. It was only in 1999 when she won the worlds that she started getting a lot more attention. She did come close to winning a bronze at the 1998 despite a bad draw in the SP but couldn't take advantage of it in the LP.

    Past 2002 Olympics- after she turned pro- she seemed to have a lot more freedom in her skating. I enjoyed her 'eyes like yours' routine.
     
  11. shady82

    shady82 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    It's a fallacy that 6.0 didn't penalize URed jumps. The skaters who consistently URed (like Sarah and Amber Corwin) were visibly marked lower on the technical mark, despite the fact that their content was comparable to, say, Michelle Kwan. Sarah even got a 5.3 for her 7-triple long in Vancouver, and she did lose to Maria in the long. Nobody who was ranked below the top 4 were better than Sarah that night either. Maria was robbed in the short though.
     
  12. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,039
    I believe you meant in Salt Lake City.
     
  13. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    Nah, I believe they don't. 2001 Worlds.
     
  14. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,039
    You are right. 2001 worlds was in Vancouver- I even attended it. My bad.
     
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,582
    I, too, heard they didn't get along but I can't remember where I heard it. I always thought Maria believed Irina's team was behind her car bombing. She always seemed to hint that it was a rival competitor but always stopped just short of naming names. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/wintersports/news/1999/12/29/skating_bomb/
    By the way, Maria did not care for Sarah and Robin and their behavior at competitions, so it doesn't surprise me at all that she thought anyone but Sarah (or Irina) should have won. Kwan is as harmless and sweet as they come so even Butryskaya would be hard pressed to have a beef with her.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  16. JJS5056

    JJS5056 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    167
    It sucks how much the qualifying round ended up impacting the medals at major Championships. They should've instituted qualifying competitions or figured something out, because skating the same LP in one competition for points led to so many great qual/poor LP and poor qual/great LP.

    Anyway, I don't think Maria Butyrskaya was underrated nor do I think she was outright robbed of much except the 2000 NHK. I do think she was at the losing end of many close calls and certainly suffered from having to be consistent throughout 3 programs. The close calls, IMO, were:

    1996 Worlds
    One of the only times Slutskaya attempted 7 triples, which was the only reason this was even close since she landed 6 instead of 5. The immature routine and costume were enough to say "we love your technical merit and you have a great future." I actually would've had her 5th behind Szewczenko. Butyrskaya 5.5/5.7, Slutskaya 5.7/5.4.

    2000 Worlds
    I think the qualifying round should've never existed and thus Kwan should've easily won in Nice. But, as it were, Butyrskaya deserved the win, IMO, with a second over Slutskaya in the LP. After missing the salchow, Irina completely broke the continuity of the program and threw the timing off iin a noticeably and interruptible manner. Bute at least attempted the 3-3 sequence, while Irina abandoned her difficult combos. I would've had Kwan at 5.8/5.9 (having to leave room), Maria at 5.6/5.9 and Irina at 5.8/5.6. Maria's program was infinitely more complex and had a lot more choreography on top of the better interpretation.

    2001 Worlds
    Meanwhile, without qualifications, Maria would've been in a better group for the SP and placed ahead of at least Hughes, which as it turned out, was all she needed anyway for bronze since was 3rd in the LP already. I think there's a case for placing her LP 2nd, especially had she rightly come in as World Champion. Slutskaya's combos were a hot mess, and her choreography was atrocious- this coming from an Irina fan; meanwhile, Butyrskaya's '17 Moments of Spring' was one of her softest programs and I thought she seemed quite at ease throughout, landing the 3-3 sequence and only doubling out on the lutz. Kwan 5.9/5.9, Butyrskaya 5.7/5.8 and Slutskaya 5.8/5.7 seems justifiable. Regardless, qualifications DID count, but I do think she should've beaten Hughes in the SP anyway to take bronze.

    1998 Worlds
    1998 Worlds was a close call; I think given her European title and consistent season, she should've received the nod for silver over Slutskaya. Slute landed 6 triples (2 of lower quality, but in difficult combinations), Bute landed 5 or 6 depending on the 2nd toe loop's creditability. Each had a fall; Irina's less disrupting but on an element, while Maria needed time to gain momentum after tripping on her choreography. Butyrskaya 5.6/5.8, Slutskaya 5.8/5.6.

    I think her overall record - selected competitions - should've looked a little more like:

    1996 Worlds: Bronze
    1997 Worlds: 4th (placing above Gusmeroli to 5th and Slutskaya to bronze)
    1998 Europeans: 2nd (no way Slutskaya deserved 2nd in the LP; Szewczenko was robbed)
    1998 Olympics: 4th
    1999 Worlds: 1st
    2000 Worlds: 1st
    2000 NHk: 1st
    2001 Worlds: 3rd

    But, in the end, I think she was merely unlucky. I do think the fed was too eager to jump back on the Slutskaya train for the 99-00 season. It was clear Maria could compete and win; they should've invested in better support, like a sports psychologist. From 1996 until before 2001 Worlds, Maria really was the more consistent skater. It's a shame close decisions/tiny mistakes cost her a much more decorated career.
     
  17. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,246
    Maria Butyrskaya was the best Bond Girl. It must have been her exhibition program at 1998 Worlds because I remember that she came in 4th in the competition. She and Olga Markova were voidy cool.

    ETA: I just checked her website - it was the 96/97 season exhibition program. I can't find a video though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,516
    I already know from our past conversations you will strongly disagree but I would have placed Voltchkova above Hughes at this event in both programs. Atleast Victoria had absolutely spectacular jumps, the best of all the women that night as Irinas jumps were clearly off her best that night, while Sarah wasnt particularly good in anything in her performances here. Anyway it would have allowed Maria to win the bronze overall so that alone is enough reason to mark it that way.

    I also agree Maria could have beaten Irina in the long program which is another way she would have gotten 3rd overall. Had she went for and made the 2nd triple lutz she probably would have since a couple judges had her 2nd over Irina anyway (well I presume 2 judges had her over Irina, a couple judges had Maria 2nd, and a couple judges had Irina over Michelle after she skated, but I am guessing they are 4 different judges; but for all I know there might have been a judge that had Irina, Maria, Michelle as I havent seen the ordinals in full ever).
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    Butyrskaya was the real DIVA. The passion she had for the music, her elegance, her maturity. Great edges despite her legs being a bit stiff. Having both flip and lutz off correct edges in an era where few skaters gave a damn about that. There hasn't been a skater like this since she has retired. I really miss her. :(

    She was the archetypal 'lady' whilst Slutskaya had a more perky and 'athletic' approach. But both of them were capable of skating to the music very well. Their rivalry was fantastic.

    I am still furious over the idiot Dick Button deciding to constantly fixate on her few weak points whilst giving his favourite skaters like Kwan a total pass on theirs.

    And the way she was totally dumped by the judges at the 2002 Olympics was just :mad:.

    Attention to detail, use of the whole body, with her movement being in character of the music chosen.

    Between her big flutz and her usual cheats, you can't really describe Hughes' program as 'clean.'
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    9,300
    She was very very high maintenance, but she really had an extraordinary look on the ice. When I think of a woman on the ice, I still think of Maria even over skaters like Katarina Witt. Maria at her best was like Gena Davis on the ice, and she had absolutely gorgeous body lines and presence.

    It was really nice to see her soften up over the years - the less tense, bitchy, and stiff she skated, the more beautiful she was to watch.. Her triple loop is still the best IMO, she also had nice pointed toes at almost every opportunity and a very pretty camel position.

    I also think that Maria Butyrskaya is perhaps the only modern day skater that could scare Barbara Fusar-Poli with a stare of her own.
     
  21. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    3,475
    The trouble is - if you're going to Hughes on her cheated triples, then you have to call Maria on hers. Whereas Hughes had those soft spinny under-rotations, Maria had that those stiffer hooked landings on her harder triples (particularly that flip). Maria did have flip and lutz off correct edges though.
     
  22. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,030

    LOL...having a stiff knee on the landing is not nearly as bad as a mistake as underrotating the jump (which Hughes regularly did on almost all triple jumps, sometimes up to 1/2 rotation)
     
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,129
    I don't remember Button being particularly harsh on Bute other than maybe her layback. But then during that era of baby ballerinas, Kwan got criticized for that as well. I do remember him being harsh on Slutskaya though, no matter how many times he mentioned the cheek-pinching story. Also, as for Kwan getting a pass…watch her Bolero during that cheesiest after 2005 Worlds. I know one time isn't much, that one time was particularly harsh (if truthful) where it was almost personal.

    It's been forever since I've seen a Hughes performance, but were her URs really that bad or is it like one those accepted "facts" that she URed them tp to 1/2 rotation "regularly…on almost all triple jumps"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,343
    I feel she wasn't dumped by the judges so much as by her own Federation which had decided to put all their eggs in the Slutskaya basket. Her own nervousness in the free didn't help either.
     
  25. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,343
    Witt was nowhere near the skater Butyrskaya was. Then again Butyrskaya was nowhere near the competitor Witt was.

    She was just stunning and sexy.

    Speaking about the stare, her opening eye in Malaguena still freaks me out. :scream:
     
  26. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,980
    I remember that. Marshall's in 2005...he was talking about her like she'd kicked his puppy or something. IDK, I think he may have been frustrated with her but, to be fair, Bolero was probably her worst FS ever so I guess I get where he was coming from.

    As for Sarah, she didn't consistently UR jumps by 1/2 a turn. I'd say she was a bit like Mirai in that she would sometimes hook her landings slightly before the quarter turn. By 6.0 standard it wasn't a big deal but under the scrutiny of the IJS and the quarter turn rule, she'd probably have received her share of URs particularly on her 3-3 combos with the 3L on the back end.
     
  27. shady82

    shady82 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    473
    Yeah, I guess this is something we won't agree about. I just thought Volchkova's skating - other than her jumps and basic skating - was pretty subpar. Sarah IMO had better spins, spirals, and style, although I know many here disagree. I actually would prefer Suguri over Volchkova in the short but that was probably not going to happen because of reputation. Fumie had a better program, better speed, and stronger spins that included a great death drop.

    Then again, Maria was denied a medal at Worlds because she was blindly robbed in the short. She should have been getting marks in the league of Kwan and Nikodinov's. It was blatant skater dropping on the part of the judges because Maria's same exact program was scored so much better at the previous Worlds. That alone would get her a medal. I think there are arguments for Maria over Irina in the long but I don't believe it was controversial that Irina came out ahead.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,516
    COP would have been absolutely horrible for Sarah. She would have been getting Amber Corwin like results under COP (which show some of the flaws of COP since as ridiculously overrated, overscored, and lucky as her career and OGM was, she is still a much better skater than Corwin). Even her skate of a life Olympic LP would have had a flutz call, an < call of some kind on about 3 of her jump passes, with atleast one >> (before recently any > was an >> type loss of points though), and most of the non jump elements would have level 1. I cant even say how she would have placed at a Worlds or Olympic since there probably wouldnt have even been one. Some people have suggested Michelle Kwan can thank her lucky stars she didnt skate under COP, but that applies to Sarah Hughes about 5 times more then.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,516
    Didnt 2 judges place Maria over Kwan for 2nd place in the short at those Worlds though, and Kwan had a spectacular performance despite placing 2nd to Irina's superior technical performance. So atleast some of the judges were impressed by Maria's short. Then others werent with ordinals like 7th or 8th. It seems the judges had no idea what to do with her.

    I have never seen her short from those Worlds but I have heard all kinds of different testimonies which were as mixed as the judges placements. Some say she skated very well, not as well as she skated the same program when she handily won the short at Worlds the previous year, but still a top 3 performance. Others say she skated cautiously and not that well, but even those would probably have marked her above Hughes. Then one blog I read and a friend of mine who was at the event live said she was crawling, most of her elements were shaky and she should have been like 8th behind Suguri in the short program. So I have no idea what to assume about her performance. Not skating in the final flight with all the other contenders grouped there was obviously never going to be to her benefit.
     
  30. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    363
    I always was aware of Butyrskayas weakness', but I agree with the others saying she should have medalled at 96 worlds. If I remember correctly, she didn't fall, but had a hand down in that performance. Slutskaya had good technical content, but it was marred with a fall. I think it could have gone either way in 01 worlds with Hughes, even though I am not a fan of her skating.

    Maria's SP at the 95-96 season (Fever) is still on one of the best ladies SP ever. Better than anything Witt did in a SP.