Mao's LP at the Olympics

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by worldsnice12, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Frankly I am not Mao's fan (not into ladies discipline in general) but never before I found a strong and emotional performance like this one in the ladies discipline.

    The judges at Sochi should be ashamed to put this performance in 3rd place.

    I hope for HD version to be uploaded on youtube soon.
     
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  2. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    To the very least, the crowd went nuts for Midori after her skate. The spectators in Sochi didn't even care. Quite honestly, I was also a bit surprised Sandra was screaming at the top of her lungs and Scott wasn't bawling his eyes out.
     
  3. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    If I am not wrong, the crowd at Sochi screamed very loudly for Mao. :) as you can hear from the background of the clip. It's wrong to say they didn't care.
    Russian fans did come for Julia and Sonitkova, but Mao was out of podium at that time, so there was no reason for them to be hostile against her. Anyways she was skating to Rachmaninoff, not to Bach or Chopin.
    I think the crowd received her performance quite well.
     
  4. alchemy void

    alchemy void it's time for the perkolator

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    Love Mao. Amazing top 5 Olympic LP. However, its much easier to do that when you are buried in the second group. If Sochi was scored under 6.0, she would have been like 5th in the LP because they had to save marks, it's just the way it was.

    I thought Mao's LP score was phenomenal for what she put out there and when she did it.
     
  5. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    The Japanese fans in the crowd in Sochi screamed for Mao. Not the Russians. While it's normal to cheer on athletes from your own country, you should at least respect the other athletes from other federations. The Russians in Sochi were awfully disrespectful and just plain rude, screaming "RUSSIA" at the top of their lungs when Yuna was about to get her scores. If you watch the couple minutes after Mao finished her FS, you mostly hear Japanese and you can also see that for the most part, the only people who gave Mao a standing ovation were the Japanese.

    I remember being the medals plaza and the Russian crowd didn't even applaud the non-Russian athletes, and they would suddenly come out of their slumber and wildly cheer when a Russian (or Belarusian vs Kazakhstani) was on the podium.
     
  6. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Bull shit. You do not have to save marks under the 6.0 system when no other skater is capable of what was done, and the judges knew what skaters planned and were capable of doing because they watched practices all week. Midori, the little Buddha loving "oriental" girl from the Far East, was never going to get fair marks even if she could skate naturally better than presumed pageant winner Katarina Witt could have if she took East German performance enhancing drugs in addition to performing gamesmanship and flashing herself around the ice in costumes without tights. If you put together Thomas's 3T/3T, Manley's 3Lz and 3Lp (which was also wrapped), and Katrina's 3F circa 1982 together, yeah the top three together, you could match Midori's content.

    Under the IJS, while I do not think Mao could have won or earned silver, she could have made up ground like others had at World and other International competitions (ie Patrick Chan). Furthermore, she was a multiple time World champion, so there was no reason for judges to withhold high PCS. Yet they inflated everybody's marks in the Top 6 in Sochi to a significantly higher degree than Mao's.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  7. Amantide

    Amantide Well-Known Member

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    The whole audience cheered for Mao. How can you distinguish the Japanese cheering (voices) from others? :rolleyes:
    I don't know the nationalities of all the people in that arena, I didn't check their passports, but I saw a lot of people cheering and applauding Mao's performance.
    As for the standing ovation, again I don't know if they were Japanese only but there has been many good performances in the history of FS that didn't get a standing ovation in the Olympic Games. Check Albertville and Lillehammer for examples.

    About the crowd screaming "Russia" when Yuna was about to get her scores, maybe you and many other people might not like it (I personally don't care that much) but to call it disrespect it's an exaggeration.

    Canadians did the same thing when Domnina&Shabalin were waiting for their scores in Vancouver 2010.
    Whas that a disrespect towards them and Russia? Didn't hear people complaining about it then, let alone calling them disrespectful.
     
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    You can distinguish them because most of it's in Japanese. :rolleyes: Also, I'm not contesting that there have been other events where the crowds have been quite mellow. One event that really sticks out was 2009 Worlds in LA, where the crowd only gave a standing ovation to Yuna, Rachael, and Alissa. Also, I don't think Albertville or Lillehammer were even close to being as bad as what these Olympics were like. It's also not like anyone deserved a standing ovation during the ladies FS in Albertville (besides Lulu).

    It's one thing to go crazy for your own countrymen (and countrywomen) and being respectful towards other competitors, and it's another to just cheer crazily for your own athletes and not care about any of the others. Sochi was definitely the latter. I remember meeting a Russian lady in Sochi who said she loved figure skating and that she's been an avid fan of the sport for years. But then she told me that she lost all interest in the mens' event when Plushenko withdrew... In my head, I was thinking, mens' skating isn't just about Plushenko... I was also at the pairs' official practice before the LP, and everyone was walking in and out of the arena, getting food and talking. That is until V&T, S&K, and B&L took the ice and all of sudden everyone was very interested and you could hear a pin drop once their music started.

    As for D&S in Vancouver, I don't watch ice dancing so I don't what went down that day (and nobody seemed to say anything about that on these boards, unlike this time around in Sochi), but all I remember is that D&S were part of a big controversy over their FD costumes. On that note, I can't see how you think that people screaming "Russia" at the top of their lungs for 3 minutes while ANOTHER NON-RUSSIAN skater is WAITING for her marks isn't considered at all disrespectful. It's similar to if you were at a graduation and you were on stage getting your diploma, but the audience started applauding and chanting the name of the person waiting in line right behind you.
     
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    You underrate the importance of the SP. Its importance is not in the total points but in the point differentials. Asada went into the FS over 18 points behind Kim, Sotnikova and Kostner and 9+ points behind the top 6 skaters. That is just too much ground to make up to move up to 3rd. Too many skaters would have to have really bad performances for Mao to move up that many places.

    You also overrate the wonderfulness of Asada's skate. Realistically, it did not actually deserve to smash any world records. True, this is one of the very few 8 triple skates by a lady ever and perhaps the only one since IJS, but quality of the jumps also matters. None of her jumps got much extra GOE credit. Plus, she had an edge call on the 3 Lz which means negative GOE and UR calls on two other jumps, which means reduced base value. Her total tech element score was only 73.03, less than Sotnikova's 7 triple skate with lots of +2 and +3 GOE. (OK, I think it is fair to say Sotnikova was generously marked, but the point is that Mao's 8 triple skate was not actually worth as much as a 7 triple program could earn.)

    I do think Mao was undermarked in PCS in the free skate, especially looking at the PCS marks they were giving other skaters, but still, I don't think this program deserved world record PCS either.
     
  10. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    G*d, like Sotnikova deserved +2 to +3 GEOs on anything :rolleyes:

    Sotnikova might have had enough exuberance that night to merit piss testing for pseudoephedrine, but the actual quality of her elements was crappy to mediocre. At best, anything she did only deserved -1 to +1 GEOs. The judges weren't just generous, they were lying.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  11. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    lol, I don't know where to begin replying, so I will just start randomly. Mao is the first only female skater to ever to have landed 8 triples. These 8 triples include every kind of triple jump, the most difficult jumps and combination there exist in figure skating are all packed in that program. Everything was solidly landed with great height and distance, and every jump was attacked with no hesitation. The content in that program would even be difficult for most men to pull off, and you say it's overrated?
    Here is a female pulling something exceptionally never seen before, for soo many different reasons and you call it overrated? do you really think that it was pure coincidence that her goe and pcs were deflated to such a degree that not a single judge gave a +2 (something that I have never seen before following her career). do you think that it' pure coincidence that several commentators and skaters openly said to the public and media that the the calls Mao received in Sochi were bogus.
    whose performance do you think made it most obvious that the judging in sochi was biased? Her marks truly did not reflect the extraordinary performance she put out there, but I and the rest of the world are not that easily fooled by manipulative numbers. I know what I saw, and I will remember Mao for what she delivered and not what she received. You see I am not that easily deceived by numbers. especially when the manipulation couldn't be more obvious.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  12. eternitygoddess

    eternitygoddess Active Member

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    I think Asada's LP deserves to be above Sotnikova's LP, but I'm hesitant to say if she deserves to have broken the world record with that. Yes she has the triple axel and completed 8 triples, but her jump quality has never been the best.

    Moving to 3rd from 16th is also a real stretch, no matter how you slice it and dice it.

    I thought she had a good chance of breaking the WR at Worlds, but it seems that she got slammed with a lot of tech calls.
     
  13. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Statements like this make it pretty clear you are too emotionally attached to be capable of rationally viewing this program. You have carefully omitted the notion of complete rotations and correct edge takeoffs. Besides, height and distance on most of the jumps was only pretty good, not great. If these jumps had all been so wonderful, there would not have been so many 0 and -1 GOEs for them (not to mention the edge and UR calls).

    I also think you are being a bit delusional to suspect she was the victim of judging schemes. Sitting as far down as she was after the SP, nobody needed to worry about holding down her FS marks.
     
  14. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    Just adding the the pcs in the free alone, that the other top contenders got would have given her around 147-148 that's without adding the goe and removing the two bogus calls. Now if you added them on top I think you would faint just by seeing how many points she was robbed in the freeskate alone.
     
  15. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    ofcourse i'm emotionally attached, how could not be when I witnessed something soo extraordinary in front of my eyes, and beside who was not emotional after that performance. When she landed the last jump I could literally not believe my own eyes, I did not even take note of the score when it popped up, because my mind was still thinking about the performance.

    Also before you come and call me delusional, maybe you should take a close look at how each skaters element were scored before sochi, in sochi, and after sochi, and see how much inflation and deflation was going on in sochi, the number don't lie and the intention was clear.



    For the same reason scores are manipulated everytime, to make room for some skaters while holding others down thereby affect the final outcome to their liking.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  16. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    I definitely feel as though Mao was completely hosed in Sochi. I don't like the fact that they didn't give her the benefit of the doubt the way they gave other skaters the benefit of the doubt when it came to rotations and < calls. I also think it is a travesty that Mao's virtually flawless FS scored so much lower in PCS than Julia's FS which had several errors including a fall. People harp on and on about Adelina's scores but at least she delivered a 97% clean program; Julia was overscored in both segments of the competition given she had major errors in both programs.

    I'd have had Mao first in the FS (I believe when I scored her it came out to like 151+ which would have been the WR). In my scoring, it was enough to pull her up into 4th place which would have been fair IMO given the performances the 4th and 5th place finishers turned in (both Gold and Lipnitskaya fell in their FS and are not superior to Mao from an overall standpoint).

    Case in point: Mao got screwed in Sochi. No, I don't think she deserved a medal due to the meltdown she had in the SP, but that FS was the highlight of the night and deserved to score much higher than what she received, both in TES and PCS.
     
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  17. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Also my points! Thank you for saying it out. Some people were too biased because they don't want to admit this performance was the most powerful and emotional of that night. ;)
     
  18. eternitygoddess

    eternitygoddess Active Member

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    It's great you're emotionally moved/attached and all, but as Susan M said, you need to filter out your emotions in order to rationally judge the program. Your reply proved her statement.

    @kwanatic - Asada wasn't the only one who was "completely hosed". Her LP was scored too low, but Idk if it's "virtually flawless". Are you saying you wouldn't give her any rotation or < calls?

    @Meoima - You can't call people "biased" bc they don't agree with you on a subjective matter. Asada's program was extremely stirring given what a heartbreak her SP was, but I also found Kostner's, Sotnikova's, and Kim's LPs equally powerful and emotional for different reasons. Kostner bc she finally overcame her demons and doubts and put together two clean programs, Sotnikova for proving herself after being cast away by her Federation (disagree with her scores), and Kim for bearing with all that immense pressure and finally being done.
     
  19. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    1 - I don't think Mao could be on the podium despite her LP. I think she deserved a world record for her 8 triple including 3A. No lady has ever done that before. And she performed beautifully. Hardest program and most emotional performance of that night, Is that too delusional of a statement? :confused:

    2 - I have seen Yuna's fans bash Mao on youtube about this performance when they see some supportive people commented that this performance deserved a world record. :p The scores she received that night was not a world record so why are they so boild up about that matter? They are afraid that Mao would break Yuna's record?
    Seriously Mao couldn't even enter the podium, is that a threat to Yuna? Why they spent all the way to bash her, for the sake of Yuna? Yuna surely doesn't ask them to do that, she is classy when will never want her fans to to such thing.
    They are simply being bad fans. If that was not biased then what is? They even brought all the stuff from the past about how Mao was weaker competitor to bash this performance. They went to ISU magazine posts on facebook about Mao when she won at Saitama to bash her and Yuna did not even compete in that competition. If that was not biased then what is? I am talking about those people. Is that a problem? Why can't I complain about their behavior?

    3 - Personally I think Mao is not a fierce competitor, she choked many times and it irritated me. I am not even her fan. But with all my respect, I think her LP at Sochi was the storngest of that particular night. Not just in the difficulty but presentation also. Harder than Sonitkova, and at least no step out. :p yet the scores were so low comparing to what she did out there.
    People are saying Sonitkova won with 7 triples was absurd. Because Yuna with 6 triples was more beautiful? Mao with 8 triple, and no less beautiful, why wasn't she placed 1st in the LP? They even spared Sonitkova's UR, wrong edge and wrong level of SS. Why they were nitpicking about Mao? More triples should have been placed higher, according to their logic. But she wasn't.

    4 - I love Yulia very much, but I think Mao was undermarked so Yulia could be placed higher than Mao. If scored correctly, Mao should have been placed 5th, or even 4th. Not on the podium, but it could have been that way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
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  20. eternitygoddess

    eternitygoddess Active Member

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    ^The ubers aren't so much biased as they are fanatic. Biased is still in sane category, which ubers don't belong in. No point in getting worked up about them.

    Also, having a 3A and 8 triples DOES NOT automatically qualify for WR. You need to take into account the quality of the jumps, which is why I asked if Asada should've receive zero dings on URs and edge calls (as some posters claim she was flawless), which are things that have always troubled her.
     
  21. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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  22. personwhoishere

    personwhoishere Well-Known Member

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    World record, podium, whatever. That was the performance of the Games, and by far the performance of the night. She should've won the freeskate easily, and I wish the marks had reflected THAT, regardless of where she ended up in the standings otherwise.
     
  23. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    What I'm saying is I prefer (advocate for) fair and consistent judging. If the caller is going to be lenient to one skater, they should be lenient to all. All of Mao's jumps were cleanly landed...no obvious 1/2 turn cheats on any of her landings. If Adelina's borderline 3Lz-3T gets full credit, then Mao's borderline 3F-3L should have received full credit.

    I don't like it when judges use a microscope on some skaters and turn a blind eye to others. Consistency...apply the same level of leniency across the board to make it fair. Using the measuring stick they used for Adelina, I think Mao should have received full credit...if we're talking about being fair here...
     
  24. gordanlevitt

    gordanlevitt Member

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    Sotnikova was outragoeously overscored compared to Kim and Kostner and others in Sochi, not just compared to Mao, so it is kind of pointless to use her as an example of inconsistency in the scoring. Everyone knows the Russian girls got a huge home country boost, Julia did as well considering how bad she skated; and completed with Sotnikova's completely undeserved farcial gold medal, and Julia's crazy scores in the team event making Russia unbeatable there. So their scores and the consistency of how each thing was being scored was not in line with reality, not only compared to Mao, but to anyone.
     
  25. gordanlevitt

    gordanlevitt Member

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    Mao is wonderful and so was her performance, but her jumps dont have the height and power of Kim and Sotnikova, and even probably Kostner.
     
  26. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts exactly!

    We were privileged to witness Mao's performance.
    Some recognize that and would have liked for its' greatness to have been officially acknowledged,
     
  27. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I actually just watched Mao's LP from 2008 Worlds, and it's interesting to see how much her jumps have changed since then (particularly the flip). While the other jumps are still pretty similar, the flip has become smaller and lower.
     
  28. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    it's not pointless to use Mao as an example, kim and kostner both had an increase of pcs/goe in the games, where as Mao not only had no increase, but was greatly decreased on various segments making her scores obviously mismatched with the scores of the other contenders, while the other skaters scores got some good extra points, hers went in the opposite direction and were decreased. The scoring was just too inconsistent, yet well thought out & calculated, when you look at how much in agreement the judges were in the scoring.
    many seem to explain this development with Mao having had to skate early but that really does not justify it or make it any less wrong.
     
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  29. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    Lack of height??? really? open up any performance of Mao with different commentators and try to count how many times they praise her for her height in the past as well as now. That's all I will say. As to power, I think her overall performance was very powerful because of the way she flied across the ice and attacked every element, but I would categorize her jumps more as elegant, light and effortless.
     
  30. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    This...:respec: