Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Akira Andrea, Aug 8, 2010.
How can her body hold up for 4 more years?
I agree. Also with 2A is limited back to two now, so barring any fall, attempting 3A is still sensible for her. She might even feel more comfortable doing 3A than 3Lz. I wouldn't be surprise if she didn't attempt her 3Lz until late in the season like GPF or 4CC.
Thnx. The first part of the footage is some type of ceremony? The lutz looks good. Now she has to get the consistency pat down.
Coach Nagakubo's gaze towards Mao is that of a doting grandpa.
Often, coaches will say the loop, the flip and the Lutz are all the same jump with different entrances. Those three jumps can be lumped together in a training session.
Still it's not a clear and clean lutz take-off for me.
Anyway, thank you MikiAndoFan#1 as always!!
It's a good thing for skaters everywhere that some of these armchair wannabe technical callers stay exactly where they are - in the armchair!!
Not that the actual real callers get it right much *cough2010Worldscough*
There're difference between toe-jumps(Flip, Lutz) and edge jumps(loop, axel, salchow).
I mean Loop jumps have totally different mechanism with lutz jumps.
And flip jump
Give me much more constructive criticism if possible.
Of course I can give you or her honeyed words. Do you really want it?
Perfect lutz with GOE 2.1, better than anyone else in history. O.K?
No one is asking you to give any praise. But I mean do you really care about her progress or are you just here to pass judgment? Of course this doesn't just apply to you.
Need not to say about it but what is the point of this thread? She is trying to fix or reorganize her jumps to death and her result, as of today, is not that great.
That's all what I wanna talk about! If you don't wanna read my reply, just block me. There's an option for you.
And U can criticize me if my replies are wrong on tech side.
In the loop, the flip and the Lutz, the jump occurs as the skater turns forwards and jumps off the right pick (for a right-handed skater). That's what the coaches mean.
If you think this thread is pointless, why do you keep commenting on it?
Relax. I am just asking out of curiosity. The clips seems to only focus on one jump (lutz) which she had issues for a long time. She only began training with Nakagubo a little more than a month ago, so I think it's unlikely these issues will be corrected so soon.
Hmm, I understand what you're talking about. Make a sense!
I quoted the statement to tell you the difference about the jumps but you correctly told me the similarity among the jumps.
Thank you so much!!! I love something like this.
We know each other for about an year, doesn't we? I do not make a sweeping criticism to a skater. Of course, do that to **** haters.
Sorry, if I hurt you. And I'll recover your r*** some later.
Good night. It's too late for me. I waited your reply.
There's always something for us to learn; that's why the technical panel has three people.
Your user title tells me all I need to know thanks This thread is about Mao's jumps so why make an ill concealed reference to Ms Kim? Just because some judges got a bit giddy on the +3's does not the worlds best ever triple lutz make. Plenty of skaters had wonderful triple lutzes long before Ms Kim came along. Now go do your skating history homework and get back to me
^^Thank you. This is what I needed.
Studied for about 4 years but it's still hard for me to know what figure skating is. I'm almost finishing to study Technical Panels handbook 2010/2011 but there're still more Comm.XXXX to study.
As to history homework, I don't wanna know about the 6.0 era. IJS alone is enough.
Plz, let me know everything about figure skating! That's why I paid to FSU.
Did you guys notice the Bobbsey twins commented the most in this thread?
I guess there comes a point where people do drop the stick and can back away from the dead horse in tandem...
Ain't insecurity a bitch?!
But all the more power to RumbleFish and RunnersHigh! It takes a lot of dedication and concerted effort to do.
Oh and RH, if you want to learn more about figure skating, I'd steer clear of wikipedia.
That's like figure skating for dummies - cyber style.
If you want to learn, then stop having the attitude that you know more than everyone else and doing asinine things like posting the Wikipedia entries to people who already know what the jumps are.
History is also very important, as the 6.0 era is the basis of the IJS system. A lot of things in the 6.0 weren't as heavily scrutinized as it was in the IJS, so knowing how elements were performed before they were codified is important to understanding the development and constant revisions to the IJS system.
Mao's lutz still needs some work, but it's better than those few clips we saw of the Tarasova lutz. It's really hard to tell from the camera angles and without ice tracings, but one of the promising things is that her lutz has more of a counterrotation snap to it that didn't appear in the Tarasova clips.
From Nagakubo's body language, he seems to be telling Mao is that she needs to spring up into the jump before she tries to rotate (I agree, that's why Yu-Na's lutzes get amazing height). Also, remember that Akiko Suzuki still has a very slight Kwan-like flutz, so don't expect Nagakubo to correct Mao's flutz to Rochette quality.
Either way, that edge is a lot better than it was four years ago.
I swear FrouFrou- you have the best delivery! You should become a lawyer or do stand-up!
Oops, did I look like that? Then, I have to watch my mouth.
O.K. I'll try to study 6.0 some later.
ITA and I love these kinds of posts in this forum. But as you know it's hard to find something like this. And easy to be attacked.
Thank you for the constructive criticism, sincere advice and technical opinion. No kidding, Sincerely!
I didn't like how in the training videos they cut out her set-up/entrances to her flips and lutzes because it was hard to tell which one she was going for.
I like how Ashley Wagner worked quietly over the off season and showed her improved lutz jump in a competition. She said she started from scratch doing singles and worked up to triples gradually.
Contrastingly, Mao Asada is making a big deal with the media out of fixing her jumps, which IMO hasn't got much better. It will also be interesting to see whether her triple loop, which shares the same mechanism with her supposedly fixed lutz IMO, remains unaffected.
We will see how these 2 tales of Fixing my Flutz end up in a couple of months, but I'd put my money on Ashley for now.
Be that as it may, perhaps the fact that Japan media makes a big(ger) deal out of figure skating than the US media should be considered... I don't think Mao's initiating these press conferences/media reports to inform people on how her jumps are getting along but more likely reporters are asking to interview her and turning down all of them would be kind of rude...
Just where and when did you read/hear that? I collect and pay attention to interviews and fluffs about single skaters and I can guarantee you that Mao has never said that any of her jumps were perfect.
Most of the hyping comes from the media, usually from those reporters who don't know much about figure skating. TAT also used to be a bit overenthusiastic, which I think hurt Mao in the long run.
Here are some actual quotes from Mao's team: first, Mr. Nagakubos quotes from a Japanese magazine of Aug 12/19 issue:
Her challenges are first of all to correct (techniques of) jumps shes not good at and improve (techniques) to land jumps cleanly otherwise she tend to under-rotate. (...)
Weve started from single jumps. Now, weve just only completed double jumps and started to work on triple jumps. Quadruples are far away. We are making over her jumps by going back to a 10-year-old student level.
And from a different article:
"Coach Hiroshi Nagakubo, who became her jump coach in June, said, "My first impression was, 'It's impressive that she was able to become world champion like this.' Her rotation is late. If she uses force, then she can't go straight (up in the air). To be able to do a [triple] axel that way is incredible." He has been reworking the basic movements of her jumps starting from a single rotation. "It's already getting better, but sometimes her former (bad habits) come out. And even if she jumps well, she says, 'I don't know why I was able to do it.'
(Replying to a question if Maos rework on jumps can be completed within four years before Sochi.) I accepted (to coach Mao) because I know its possible. Well make it well before that.
And quotes from Mao:
"This year, my goal is to change my jumps. If I can establish a foundation, then over the next 2, 3 years too, I'll be able to keep improving."
About 3 Lutz: "Some days I can do it and some days I can't. Today is more of a bad day. It feels like I still don't understand my jump." She says she spends most of her practice time on jumps: "I will bring back the jumps that I used to be able to do in the past. Right now I have to endure it. People tell me not to hurry, and that's what I think, too."
(translations courtesy of Batsuchan and linglang)
So, to sum up: Mao reworks her jumps going back to a 10-years old skater level, she just started working on triples, wants to establish a strong foundation now so she can keep improving over the next 2-3 years and openly admits she still struggles with 3Lz. I definitely don't see any boasting here.
It is also unfair to say Mao's jumps didn't change much. Not only her 3F and 3Lz used to be indentical (and now visibly difer from each other as Mao keeps the counterrotation on her Lutz) but also her body position during her take-off preparation and the take-off itself changed a lot. Check out flips and Lutzes from the 08-09 season and compare them to those from the recent practice clips. Mao doesn't drop her torso as much, doesn't lift her free leg as high, doesn't reach as far back with her arm and initiates the take-off bending her knee more. Her take-offs used to look a bit like Sasha's, not they look a bit more like Nobunari's (although with much less speed as of now).
Removed by the user
Whether I agree with it or not, 2 thumbs up.
Thank you guys. I'm having so much fun!
But I thought you found Mao and her fans so entertaining and adorable?
We are quite the charmers, if I do say so myself. Isn't that why you keep coming back for more?!
Well I hope Mao being such a media whore doesn't deter you from showing up in her threads as you did before.
We always need a good comic relief around here.
Your insight is quite darling indeed. Unable to tell the difference between a toe jump and an edge jump- you are sooo cute.
Ha ha!!! Yes, Mao the MediaWhore!!
FrouFrou, your deliveries are classic.
As Jollyroger pointed out, figure skating is just a MUCH more popular sport in Japan than in the U.S. In Japan, Mao Asada is a celebrity. In the U.S., the average person has never heard of Ashley Wagner (or Rachel Flatt or Mirai Nagasu, for that matter). The Japanese media follows their top skaters around all the time. I'm pretty sure Mao does not request these tapings for her own media exposure.
And I'm still trying to figure out how fixing her 3Lz would affect her 3Lo. Her issue on the lutz is the LBO takeoff edge. The 3Lo takes off from a RBO edge.
At last, I get a reply that is worthy of respect. If what you are saying that the Japanese media is the culprit of overhyping, I should take my words back. I'd also want to advise her to consider changing her PR representative or whoever that is in charge of handling the media.
ITA her flutz has taken the route of resembling Oda's rather than a correct one like Ando's. This is the reason why I'm so critical about jumps she showed in the clips.
Although Oda does a pretty decent job of disguising his flutz, it is pretty obvious to trained eyes and WILL get nailed with edge call in major competitions. IIRC, during last season he not only didn't receive edge calls but actually got bonus points in GP series. We all know he wasn't so lucky at the Olympics and got hammered with a big e.
My opinion is that if Mao Asada is really serious at correcting her jumps in time for next OG, she should learn to do text book jumps, and not emulate flutzer of a different kind. At current rate, she will at best become a lady Oda, getting away despite her flaws at minor events but hit hard in competitions that really count. If her new moustache coach is behind in this wrong decision, he should be fired.
Look closely at what is supposed to be the picking toe.
A new video.
Mao landed a clean 2Lz!
Looks like Nagakubo is working his magic - Mao's landings have a lot more flow.
JMHO, but I've always thought that Mao's wobbly landings may have contributed to a number of her underrotated calls in the past.
Oh god, a couple of delusional people in this thread is making me have a good laugh
My poor girl can't have a break, she is just training some jumps and then people start analyzing every movement of her.
Of course this can be a healthy discussion, because we all want her improvement to death, and we are pretty sure she will give her best, but some people just come to hate.
I truly don't understand, bc if their favorite skater can jump a 3Lz perfectly, with a +2.1 GOE, why they are so worried about Mao, right?
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