Mao Asada reworking jumps: Why?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by LilJen, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I remember a while ago there was an article on muscle memory that stated when you started to think about a process, you messed up the muscle memory therefore moves would go wrong.
    I think, the hard part for Mao would be getting that muscle memory back. With many different coaches her mind probably never got around to really "save" one version of how to do a jump. There was a lot of different input by a lot of different people and never just one version of how to do it.
    The question is, if she'll be able to successfully relearn her jumps or if the many coaches actually messed up her chances.

    The other question is, will she still be able to make the Worlds team? will the Japanese federation keep her scores high enough to send her if they have three clean skates at Nationals and she were to mess up? What happens when she's not selected and doesn't go to Worlds this year? I know that she might make the World team the following year without a problem, I'm more concerned about international judges (who are unbiased and of course, only judge what they see :p)

    I've never been her biggest fan but she's got a lot of courage to do what many never even think about doing and I sincerely hope her many coaches haven't messed up her chances and her effort is rewarded in the end!! No one deserves to put so much work into something and then not see it pay of!!
  2. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I don't know. I mean Suzuki still gets edge calls. And it's not like Sato's students' jumps are not good. I always felt his students had good flow out of their jumps. It would have been good for her to continue to work with Nakagubo but he never signed up to be her main coach (cuz of Akiko), so it couldn't be helped.
  3. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    So is she really reworking her jumps or just having an spectacularly awful season?
  4. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Right. I admire Mao greatly for being aware of (let alone going ahead and fixing) her flaws, but one also has to wonder how this is making her look in the eyes of the judges. Forward momentum is never a bad thing, especially when it comes to a judged sport.

    I would think that it would have been better to take the season off so she could fix her jumps without worrying about traveling to comps or even choreographing/practicing programs. :( Liebestraum is SO much better than last year's Bells and it would make me sad if she never got to skate it well.
  5. dundas

    dundas Banned Member

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    mao is another victim of rabid armchair fans' call for 'retooling jump technique to be a better skater':rolleyes:

    I'm wondering when she'll be able to retool back her jumps, perhaps never. :rolleyes: sad since Mao is such a talented skater.:saint:
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    ITA.
  7. eyh201

    eyh201 New Member

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    I think the reason why Mao doesn't skip the season could be her endorsement contracts. But it was said that one of her endorsement contracts was recently canceled due to the unsatisfying GP results. Maybe it could give Mao leeway for rescheduling the rest of the season.
  8. vodkashot

    vodkashot New Member

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    Out of curiosity, which one of Mao's endorsement contracts were cancelled?
  9. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    I'm curious too, but I don't think that's the reason why she doesn't skip GP season.

    Asada or Sato (I don't remember who of them) said that competing is part of practice, that's why she doesn't take a season off. You can be able to do some jumps during practices but not be able to do them under pressure during competition. If she cared about placement she wouldn't try to do 3F, 3Lu (like Kostner does) and 3A.


    I love Bells of Moscow, it completely differentiated from programs of other skaters. Liebestraum is softer and it better fits her, but it's also a bit Zzzzzz...

    I know most of people don't like BoM, but you have to forgive me my strange taste :D I'm the one who consider new SP of Ando to be her the best SP so far. I suppose I'm one of the few people who think that.
  10. Prancer

    Prancer The "specialness" that is Staff Member

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    Evidence, please, that Mao, the Japanese federation, and Mr. Sato make their decisions about Mao's training based on "the fans?"
  11. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think it's ridiculous that some of us have watched 2 sps and 3 lps from her this season, hardly 20 minutes of her skating, and call themselves disappointed, when she must have had experienced the most god-awful and discouraging 8 months of training.

    The reason why she didn't just take the season off while reworking her jumps was, I think, besides endorsements and Worlds in Japan, that she is a very competitive person and thrives when the big comps come around. Knowing a competition is coming is what motivates her to work harder.
  12. Feb

    Feb New Member

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    I’d admire her if she’s refixing her jump technique for long-term success, but her PCS goes down each time she gives an awful skate. Would that hurt her both in the short term and eventually in the long term? After all, we don’t know how much would refixing jump technique help her TES, and if PCS also drops…
    __________________
    Love all skaters who show artistry
  13. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    Her PCS dropped because the speed, flow, power and ice coverage of her non-jump elements disappeared in her quest for the 3A. There’s this false assumption that if she’s working on her jumps, they’re the only part of her skating that’s affected but this isn’t the case. There are comments to the effect that if she’s working on her lutz, why can’t she land her 3A any more. When you renovate part of your home, the entire house is affected by the mess, not just the rooms you’re working on. And the house doesn’t return to normal until all of the renovations are complete. The same theory applies here.

    Working on her 3A cost Mao her PCS. It’s that simple. Her PCS was comparable to Yu-Na’s when she decided to focus on the 3A. Her spins, footwork, speed, flow, everything, went downhill except the 3A.

    And even though the working on the 3A was successful in that she did land 3 of them at the Olympics which was her goal, it failed because what she lost on the rest of her elements, and her skating skills, was worth more points overall, than what she gained.
  14. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    Last season Mao got level 4 for all spins & spiral sequence and level 3 for step sequence. I wouldn't say "everything, went downhill except the 3A"
  15. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    Don't look at her levels, look at her GoE for those elements. It went down.
  16. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    I compare her results from worlds in 2008 & 2010 and she got higher scores for all those elements in 2010.

    Why should I look only at GoE instead of level? Both are very important.
  17. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    She got bored.
  18. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Because we are talking about QUALITY here, and that's what GOE reflects?
  19. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

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    There's no doubt her training has been difficult and arduous, but it's those 20 minutes that count towards her world standings, medal count, and reputation.

    I'm disappointed because it really seemed like there were glints of hope that Mao was making progress during her summer training with Nagakubo. Those clips were very brief, but I remember seeing lutz attempts with actual counterrotation "spring" into them, decent attempts to hold a real BO edge, and Mao holding her landings and getting more flow out of them.

    I know from my and others' experiences that even if a skater is reworking their technique, old habits tend to come out during competition. That might be part of the reason why Mao shows no evidence of her summer improvements, but I'm shocked at how the bad habits are even worse.
  20. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    I know, but level of element is more objective evaluation than GoE. Moreover both of them make scores higher and that's the most important thing in this case.

    And concerning steps: WTT in 2009 was first competition when Asada tried to do three 3A and she got level 4 for step sequence. How many skaters do you know whose steps are worth level 4? I think it proves she doesn't focus only on 3A.
  21. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    the same could be said about the levels!! and even through Goe are importent because they can make a big difference.. I think the levels are much more accurate and important, since they reflect much better on the rule and if the skater does all the requirement things for the specific level they will automatically get credit for it. were in comparison goe are VERY subjective, judges can give between 0-2 goe for one and the same jump all depending on what they feel like giving the skater.

    there are skaters who have very much ice coverage and skaters with great height. and neiter one of them is neccesarry better then the other, but the judges seem to only give very high goe for skater who have both. which I personally find wrong because as long as the skater has the right take off, good rotation in the air, and right and solid landing they should also be creditet well for their jumps. but that's also depends what the judges feel like giving.

    mao has everything she has great flexibility on her spins, extended spirals , fast and diffecult step seq in both directions, beautiful position and lines, and right now, and her speed is getting much better. I actually wasn't that surprised that she didn't do well, because she has chosen to rework her technique on all her jumps, and that isn't gonna happen in a few month I mean to normally rework one jump could take a whole year.

    the only thing mao needs right now is time, I wouldn't be surprised if she endet up on the podium at worlds this year even with all the struggle she is going through right now, and if her new jumps have become more apart of her by then she could very well end up winning her third world title...
  22. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    You're expecting way too much too soon. If the improvements show up in her competitive skating by the end of this season, I'll be very impressed.

    The clips you saw were elements done in practice, in isolation, not a skater doing a program in a competitive environment. There isn't time, in a competition, to focus on how you should be doing things. You only have time to do it, in time to the music, and on to the next element.

    All of her life she's done it wrong. How long does it take you to correct a bad habit? How often do you revert to your old ways, often without thinking. Muscle memory has to be broken down and replaced with new muscle memory using the correct technique so you don't have to think, just do.

    Mao is a worker. Even Raphael, known to be a coach who pushes his student very hard, was impressed with her work ethic. He said she'd spend her whole life on the ice if it was allowed. Because of her commitment and her work ethic, I have a lot of faith that Mao will be successful in making these changes. The girl wants to win.
  23. Ankka

    Ankka New Member

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    I do get why she does it. I had a similar case in my dancing career. I've been a ballroom dancer for more than 10 years and been dancing other types of dances since I was 3. I was relatively successful at dancing competitions in the national level and had a good technique as it was. But about a year ago my coach decided (as I changed partners) that it was the right time to re-work everything, just to get rid of some bad habits. What we did for three months was basically learning how to move your body weight correctly (which means just plain steps to different directions) and how to rise to your toes in a healthier way. All this time we practised basically walking two hours a day, five times a week. But once we got it right and added the actual dancing there, we very quickly started dancing miles better than we ever had before. All aspects of our dancing improved significantly. I think what Mao is doing now is definitely risky but it could definitely improve all aspects of her jumps a lot.
  24. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    In hindsight, I wonder how many times she had to try the jumps before they could successfully got them on video. Perhaps if she kept practising and doing just the flip, she might get it on her 3rd or 4th try. But it's such a ambitious layout that she has in the actual competition - she is trying all 6 triples now - there are bound to be failures even if she didn't have jump technique problems. She experienced the same last season when for the first time she was trying a 3axel in the sp and 2 3axels in the lp, even though she has had the 3axel down for several seasons already.

    But I rather she had these horrible performances out of her system, so she can now focus on delivering for Nationals and (hopefully) Worlds.
  25. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I've been trying to go into my axel (that's a *single* axel, mind you) with a little more speed and it totally screws up my timing and technique on the takeoff. I can't even imagine trying to make adjustments to a triple axel, much less reworking the technique on every jump! I say she needs two seasons to complete this process and get the changes into her muscle memory. Good for her, though. This is just one reason she has my respect more than any other skater out there.
  26. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    If she is back to form by Nationals or even Worlds, I'll faint with shock. Even Mao has said, she's not worried about her results this season. Given the number of times she has talked about this in interviews, and the number of people who have posted in this thread that relearning technique at this stage of her career is a long, long, process, I'm surprised that people are still expecting her to retain her title this year.

    If she is back to form by 2012 Nationals or Worlds, I'll be one happy skating fan.
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Retain title - no. But at least not fall twice and pop 3 jumps per competition.
  28. eyh201

    eyh201 New Member

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    According to the Sankei Sports, it was a chocholate commercial.
  29. dundas

    dundas Banned Member

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    It's stupid to think a world-class skater like Mao can afford 2 years in the dark to 'retool' her jumps.


    She'll be left in the dust by international judges...
  30. luCN

    luCN New Member

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    I think it's a good idea to fix her jumps,but it's really a bad idea to compete before she can handle all the changes.If she do want to do it ,she should take a season off.keep doing this in competitions can only make the judges give her lower and lower scores day after day...and maybe she should find another coach more fit her...
  31. ponta1

    ponta1 New Member

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    Oh please, she's only been working with Mr. Sato for a short time.
  32. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    ITA. Mao really does not need another coaching change. :rolleyes:
  33. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    Well, I think there are 2 kinds of "afford". Finanacially, she has done very well with endorsement deals, even if she loses a few. Though I have no numbers, I doubt money is a problem.

    The second kind of "afford" is respect from the judges. Again, I don't think this is a problem. When a skater starts doing well, she gets high scores, even if she has done poorly before. Look at Carolina and Kiira.
  34. jjane45

    jjane45 New Member

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    And landing jumps in practice are different from competitions, especially from a mental aspect.
    I respect Mao's ambition and work ethic, wish her all the best.
  35. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Plus she and Kozuka are soo cute together, they just have to become a couple! Apparently he is very protective of Mao :)
  36. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Mao is not going to lose the respect of the judges. She will simply no longer receive the benefit of the doubt. If she makes mistakes she will not win, which is quite fair anyway. Her skating skills were marked too highly before, IMO. If she skates well she will get the big marks.
  37. Jenny81

    Jenny81 Member

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    I can't deny your opinion.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  38. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    Taking a season off is not necessarily a good idea either. Skaters who have done so, come back much the worse off. Their skills are not as sharp and the rest of the field can easily catch up and pass them.

    It takes a really special athlete to undertake this change and to not lose heart after the inevitable setbacks. Mao looks happy and focussed. She knows it's working.

    I consider Mr. Sato one of the best technical coaches in the world. His skaters have the very best feet out there and already there has been an enormous improvement.

    The judges will give her the scores when she gets there.
  39. bek

    bek Guest

    Why can't Mao afford that, what exactly does Asada have to lose? Mao has won everything in this sport, she could possibly win already-except for the Olympics. Short term if she kept her jumps the same, she'd likely win another world title or two. But I'm not sure she can keep the jumps the same, and expect to beat the talented Juniors we see coming up in Sochi.

    If Asada comes back with improved jumps, she's going to have nothing BUT respect from everyone. I respect her for trying to be the best skater she can be. But I think she'll have everyones respect for trying even if it doesn't work. And she'll know she did everything she possibly could.

    Mao is doing what a champion does, she is working to get better rather than stagnating.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2011
  40. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, after watching 4CC, it seems that she is back to form. Start fainting then! ;) :rollin: