Mao Asada best skater ever if she wins in Sochi

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I think if Mao wins the Sochi Olympics she will have to be considered the best female skater ever. Here is why:

    -She would have for sure won the 2006 Olympics if she were allowed to compete. This was not a fault of ability, it was the fault of a silly rule which would have denied Lipinski and Kwan all their 96-98 success had it been in place, would have denied Baiul her whole career. So that would be an unawarded 2006 Olympic Gold, a 2010 Olympic silver with a historic 3 triple axels and great artistry which would have won any other Olympics, and a 2014 Olympic Gold.

    -She would win the Worlds in Japan a month later if she wins the Olympics. This would make her a 3 time World Champion to go with her 2 Olympic Golds (1 unawarded due to silly age rule) and Olympic silver.


    Most of all she is the perfect combination of both technical risk taking, great spins and spirals, and beautiful artistry. Kim is raved about for her technical ability but she does not push the sport forward with triple axels and hard triple-triples like Mao does. Mao also has the most exquisite positions and lines, she is every bit as strong as say Sasha Cohen in those areas, but with much stronger basic skating than Sasha to go with. All her elements are strong, there really is no weakness in her skating aside from her inconsistency.

    Attempting 3 triple axels per competition is so gutsy. Midori and Tonya didnt even do this and their triple axels and jumps were far more explosive and easy than Mao's. Kim has amazing jumps that have far more height, flow, and better technique than Mao's, yet she is too scared to try triple axels and quads. That makes Mao's feat even more impressive. She isnt really the best jumper yet she is pushing herself to do harder and harder jumps more than people who should be able to do than even more easier. She could do an easier program to win like Kim does but she refuses to do that. She wants to push herself, even sacrificing her own chances for gold medals to do so. A true Champions mentality.
  2. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    Yay! Let's start another Kim vs. Mao flame war... :scream:
  3. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I did not diss Kim. Kim would be my current pick for best female skater ever. That is another big reason Mao would become the best female skater ever if she won in Sochi. She would overtake Kim as best skater of this era if she wins in Sochi, and since Kim is currently considered by most as the best female skater ever, Mao would naturally take over that spot by overtaking the best female skater ever as best of their era. Similar to how when Nadal overtakes Federer as best player of their era (if it happens) he would naturally be elevated to best of all time too.

    I like both Mao and Kim alot. I in no way dissed Kim in my post. It is possible to like both skaters without a flame war. My only comments about Kim that could be viewed that way is Mao doing harder jumps despite that Kim is really a better jumper show Mao's gutsiness, but I said that comparing her to Ito and Harding too, so would I be dissing them by that logic?
  4. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    easy to answer..no. I like her, but no.
  5. bek

    bek Guest

    There's no "for sure" Mao would have won 2006 Olympics. Mao didn't even win Junior Worlds that year, and she didn't win the World Champs next year.

    We have no idea how Mao would have handled that pressure. (And Kim might have done well too). We have no idea if Shizuka might have added some more difficulty in order to compete with Mao/Kim.

    Asada's a great skater and certainly one of the best ever but there's no for sure she would have won.

    It sucks though that she didn't get to try in 2006. Maybe if she had gone and won, she'd have quickly retired.
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  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Arakawa needed more difficulty than she did to beat Cohen and Slutskaya had they skated well and lucked out to win with that performance that they fell, so I dont think her not doing more difficulty had anything to do with Asada not being there. She simply didnt feel confident enough doing more. Not only did she leave out the 3-3s, but she didnt even try 6 or 7 triples, only 5. Even Cohen tried 7 and landed 5 just like Shizuka.

    Kim was no factor that year. She won World Juniors since Mao skated really bad there.
  7. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    You say Yuna doesn't push the sport forward with hard triple-triples? Look at what all the juniors are doing nowadays. Yup. They're all doing 3Lz+3T. You say Yuna is "too scared" to go for a 3Axel? Just like Mao is too scared to do triple-triples with a Lutz? Don't be silly, Yuna does 3Lz combos because that's her strongest jump, just like Mao does triple Axels but no 3Lz+3T because that's not her strength.

    You say Mao has a "true" Champion's heart but Yuna doesn't because she's too scared to go for harder jumps? OK. You can have all the heart in the world but it won't make you a true Champion if you can't land and rotate your jumps. A true Champion brings her A game to the top competitions.

    Gold is not awarded on the basis of effort or attempts. A lady figure skater can promise and announce that she will do quads, and she can practice hundreds of quads, but if she fails to land them in competition that won't make her a champion. Gutsy, sure. Champion, no. Mao is definitely gutsy to go for those 3Axels, but she's not doing herself a whole lot of favor in the eyes of judges and spectators by frequently popping, under-rotating or two-footing them.

    As for Mao winning 2006 Olympics if only she had been age eligible. That's silly. That argument has less merit than saying that Yuna could have won Worlds 2007 and 2008 if only she were not injured (which is much close to reality given her lead in the SP at 2007 Worlds and winning the LP in 2008).
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I would consider Mao below Kim even if she won everything in her final season. She simply has been too inconsistent in her career compared to Kim who has been the epitome of both dominance and consistency.
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Ladies (Yamaguchi, Ito) were doing 3Lz-3t combinations in the early 1990's. Ando & Slutskaya were doing an even harder combination 3Lz3R (although not very often). Lipinski had a 3R3R- another very difficult combination, so I disagree that Yu na has pushed the sport forward by doing the 3Lz-3t. She may be the best overall skater who can handle pressure and that is why she is an Olympic champion. However, I don't see her as a skater that pushed the sport forward.

    About your second comment above- it's not the same or similar situation. I am not aware of Yu na losing the 2007 & 2008 worlds due to injury (although Yu na fans would like to believe that). She had simply not developed to that level at that time. Even if Yu na was injured both times (I seriously doubt this claim), it is still not a valid comparison. Mao had actually beaten the reigning world champion and everyone else in 2006. She was in perfect health, so it was a fair assumption that she had a very good chance of winning the 2006 OGM had she only been age eligible.
  10. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    To go back to the original question, I would hesitate to say Mao would be the best skater ever, if she wins the OGM in Sochi. She is a lovely skater to watch, and she is gutsy. No other lady skater has landed two triple axels in the program. Yet, 'best skater ever' would be a stretch. I wouldn't even give that to Yu na if she fails to win the OGM in Sochi.
  11. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    In answer to the question - No.
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  12. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Best skater ever? Good grief, how can you put that label on anyone? There's been skaters around for a hundred years and its all about who you like.
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Shhhh don't tell anyone but the skating season has actually started
  14. MrSatterwhite

    MrSatterwhite Barely-Known Member

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  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The best jumper ever for sure. Even if someone in the future surpasses her jumping, I would still consider her the best jumper ever considering she was probably 50 years ahead of her time. Just like Dick Button should be considered the best mens jumper ever since he was doing things they took another 10 years to do, but Ito was much more than that.
  16. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    What you said.
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I just watched this with the sound off because I am at work, but event the quality of movement, skating skills and the transitions were amazing. And you could tell she was working with the music becuase of the changes of tempo and expression. Fabulous. I still think she is the best skater ever and we are looking at a performance from over 20 years ago.
  18. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Duplicate entry
  19. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Pure magic. :swoon:
  20. Spun Silver

    Spun Silver Well-Known Member

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    Mao is touching and memorable, but unless something changes drastically this season, I think the peak and gutsiest performances of her career were the three-3A programs in Vancouver. And Yu Na squashed her. So I don't see how she could be considered the greatest. Midori is my favorite skater so I have no problem calling her the greatest. She didn't dominate like Yu Na or Michelle, but everyone knew she was the greatest jumper ever. And she had this quality of heart that made audiences everywhere, and not just in her own nation, love her in a way that you can't say about Yu Na or Mao IMO. I worry about Mao more than I love her, and i admire Yu Na enormously without being moved by her. Midori, Janet Lynn, Michelle... to me you have to go with one of the champions who also captured hearts. JMO.
  21. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    And Midori, even in her forties, can still do a fantastic 2axel as good as anything she ever did in competition.
  22. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Could you explain the bolded part? Thank you.
  23. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Edit.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    :kickass::respec::encore:
  26. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Sorry I was thinking she was 16 at the 98 Olympics. I just checked her bio and realized she was 17 then. Had she been 16 she would have not appeared at a Worlds ever before the 98 Olympics, and if that were the case she probably wouldnt have even medalled. Reputation meant alot in the 6.0 days.
  27. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Michelle by today's rules would have been old enough to compete at 97 Worlds.
  28. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    :)
  29. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    IMHO the Hula Hoop lady is the best EVAH!
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  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Michelle also landed 3/3 combinations and won 7 World and Olympic medals in addition to 7 US National Championships after 1998 ... so I guess pre-1998 is basically her version of chump change.
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  31. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Ummmmm......that would be a NO.
  32. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

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    YES, YES, YES! That is very true for me, especially with Mao and Yu Na. With Mao, I want it for her so badly, even if she hasn't really moved me as much as others have. Yu Na is undeniably a skater with phenomenal technique, but I am not moved at all by her skating. I think with time, I may someday see it, but right now, she can't compare to skaters like Michelle and Midori (and others) in terms of making me feel something when she skates.
  33. jiejie

    jiejie Active Member

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    Answer to thread question: No. Next.
  34. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Nah she was injured. It was well-known before both worlds, and discussed on this very board, that she was injured. She even missed Four Continents one of those years because of an injury. That doesn't mean that a healthy Yuna would have won but in all fairness she was not even close to 100%.

    and it is a shame that Asada didn't get a jumpstart at worlds experience the way that Kwan and Lipinski did. Her career may have been even more impressive that it is now.
  35. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :respec:

    I wasn't planning to comment in this thread, but Midori's accomplishments: YES! Great jumper, great heart, lovely skater.

    Midori, Janet Lynn, Michelle ... ITA, they all combined wonderful technique and the ability to touch an audience to its core. That can't be taught. Midori is definitely the greatest jumper (so great even the leg wrap doesn't matter)

    Yu Na is tremendous without a doubt and a marvelous technician. She touches me with her amazing skills, desire and courage. But her reserved qualities and so far her lack of perfecting toe stretch and line in certain positions somewhat detracts from my full emotional enjoyment of her skating.

    Mao is my sentimental favorite and I feel for her. She too has great heart and courage. I love her lyrical qualities, but I feel she still suffers from some technique issues. Kudos to her for having the gumption to start over again in re-learning jump technique and coming back to competitive form. Still, at this point, I'm not that interested in seeing Mao and Yu Na compete in Sochi. Shout out to the wonderful Akiko Suzuki, btw. :)

    There's also a lot about Dorothy Hamill that was great too (and it wasn't just her hairstyle). ;) Ditto re Lu Chen.

    I think Carolina Kostner could be in the greatest category as well, had great expectations and hype not weighed her down early in her career. Unfortunately, her lack of consistency has been a downfall.

    Sasha Cohen certainly had it all too, except for confidence and consistency in the big moments (plus some jump technique issues).

    The inimitable and quirky Nicole Bobek could have been Queen of the Competitive Ice had she been able to muster the discipline to put it all together. She suffered from some jump technique issues as well, but the beauty, musicality, leg lift and precocious abilities: :swoon: Ditto re Queen of the Competitive Ice for Mirai Nagasu had she been able to put it all together.

    Kat Witt was a gutsy vixen with charm and fierce competitiveness. Debi Thomas scaled mountains and could have/ should have reached the top of Mount Olympus. Of course, coulda shoulda woulda means nothing. Looking back these of are some of the bestest ladies that come to my mind. (I think Kristi Yamaguchi became a better figure skater during her professional career). Shout out to Trixi Schuba for being the best compulsory figures skater ever, and to Lucinda Ruh for being the best spinner.

    ETA:

    I'd also like to mention these ladies as some of my favorites that I enjoyed watching, even if they weren't the greatest ever: Denise Biellmann (powerful and creative); Yuka Sato (exceptional blade quality ... smooth skater); Caryn Kadavy (lovely skater); Tonya Harding (powerful jumper and great overall technique ... off-ice family issues, her off-putting personality and the scandal overshadowed/ derailed her skating career).
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  36. Shaia

    Shaia New Member

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    If Mao wins OGM in Sochi,

    I would rank Mao as the second best skater of all time, right after Yuna. :)
  37. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. Yamaguchi did 3Lz-3T but Ito did not. As I remember it, Kristi did them as an answer to Ito's 3 axel. Each had one difficult jump element the other could not (or did not) do.

    But I agree that Kim's 3-3 combinations did not push any envelope. In addition to the ones you mention, didn't Sarah Hughes do two different 3-3 combinations in Salt Lake City? Slutskaya also at some point did two different 3-3 combinations, including 3Lz-3Lo.

    That said, I think the suggestion that an OGM would make Asada the greatest ever is equally absurd. She struggles to even land a good triple toe loop. As a stylist, she is pleasant but boring. She is a better performer than Kim, for sure, but way behind the best skaters of earlier generations as an interpreter of music.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  38. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    I don't know how many times Ito landed it in her career, but she completed a triple lutz-triple toe at 1991 Trophee Lalique.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
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  39. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    The thing about Kim is she is the first women ever who did various 3-3s easily and beautiful with great flow and full rotation. I am sure the incredible Midori Ito is the one other in history who could have but with the triple axel already in her arsenal and the technical demands of time she chose not to, only doing a triple toe-triple in competition. Remember Kim has done BOTH the triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe she a couple dozen times each in competition beautifully and totally cleanly with high OGE and only doesnt include both at the same time as COP doesnt enable it or reward it really, and while it isnt a triple-triple does the double axel-triple toe easily every competition too. Had it still been 6.0 Kim probably would do the triple lutz-triple toe and triple flip-triple toe in the same programs rather than the former until about early 2009, and the latter since and would be even more rewarded for it than COP gives her. Slutksaya who only occasionally did her 3-3s and usually landed high on the toe pick with questionable rotation cant be compared. Had Slutskaya been able to borrow Kim's dependable 100% 3-3s she would have won the 1997, 2000, and 2001 Worlds, and the 2002 and 2006 Olympics. Lipinski who had one 3-3 which she usually URed cant be compared either. Hughes who did one program with two horrible 3-3s which were pre rotated and badly underrotated which would get far less points than a clean solo triple salchow today is the funniest example given of all.

    As for Kim in the seasons you mentioned you must not remember her early career as well as I do. Kim was the top skater of the season in both 06-07 and 07-08 until Worlds. In fall 2006 had beaten Ando, Asada and Rochette to win a grand prix event, than beat Asada and Ando both again to win the Grand Prix final. Going into Worlds she was at worst a very close 2nd favorite to win behind home country girl Asada and far ahead of Ando and the other contenders. Asada didnt even win anyway either. Kim easily won the short despite all the contenders but one skating perfectly and would have easily won gold over Ando if she didnt have two falls. She did have a serious injury there but whether the falls were due to the injury is up for debate but in no way was she incapable of winning there.

    2007-2008 she was even more dominant in the lead up to Worlds. She set a new LP WR score, a new SP WR score (she already set that at the 2007 Worlds) and a new overall competition WR score. Asada even skating a clean free skate at the Grand Prix final with a triple axel and two 3-3s still couldnt best Kim's WR LP score of that season. Before her back injury she was the heavy favorite for the World title. It is safer to say in this case than 2007 the injury heavily impacted her skating at Worlds, and given the very poor quality event where Asada won with a sliding fall on her stomach, and Kostner nearly took gold with a mistake riddled program, it is very unlikely she wouldnt have easily won this one healthy.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  40. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that she is boring. I think she wonderfully understated and elegant. But each to their own.

    Will an OGM make Mao the best ever? Unfortunately no.

    She is one of the best ever in my eyes though :)