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Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 possibly shot down in Ukraine (updated)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by GarrAarghHrumph, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    What's even the point of asking this? If you want to say all ukranians are the same that's ridiculous. Yanukovych made a decision that was a flip flop only because it demanded the destruction of eastern ukraine with no aid and which poroshenko got! If the people were only interested in being in the eu and pro west and western yanukovych wouldn't have been elected.
     
  2. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    :huh: You are not making sense as usual. You speak for the Ukrainians and for the Russian oligarchs?
     
  3. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I am not speaking for Ukrainians at all. No one can speak for Ukrainians as they has been very divided for over a decade now. Yanukovych won the presidency with 49% of the vote. That's why it would have been so easy and probable to defeat him if and when he ran for reelection where he would've argued that destruction of east ukraine was not worth eu as he said.

    The oligarchs are talking themselves. Who is speaking for them? Bloomberg articles and Stratfor articles. They are making their opinions known.
     
  4. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Several people have made "the Ukraine is split" argument for why there is war.

    The US is split too. 1/2 the county hates the current president and the other 1/2 hated the last one. But luckily, we don't have a meddling neighbor urging the Texans too secede and bolstering their already ample fire power with surface to air missles.
     
  5. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    My point was to understand if you have a personal interest. If you really have any idea how Ukrainians really feel.

    Well said.

    And, just in case some have forgotten. The US did have a president, who we deemed unfit to remain in office. However, he resigned before he could be thrown out. Nixon.
     
  6. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    There is news about yet another plane crashin Taiwan killing 51
     
  7. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    We also don't have powerful neighbors who will support a coup overthrowing an elected president.

    caseyedwards is right Ukraine is divided. The EU and the US made a big mistake in discounting that factor and treating pro-Europe Ukranians as the only representative Ukranians.

    That's not to in any way give Putin a pass on his involvement especially in pushing violence by arming the separatists which is the most relevant issue regarding the downing of the flight. However it is still a factor in the turmoil that can't just be pretended to have not played any role in the tensions in Ukraine. The tensions have allowed Putin to take advantage of things. The West's policy was ill-considered.
     
  8. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    The EU deals with national governments. When Yanukovych was still in power, it dealt with his government, not the opposition. And, in fact, Yanukovych himself wanted to -- and did -- pursue EU membership before changing him mind.
     
  9. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    The EU was not neutral, it was in favor of Ukraine being more oriented toward the West. And Yanukovych did change his mind, prompting large demonstrations. My point is that the West should have navigated this better--Ukraine was divided about whether to be more integrated with the West and a lot more care needed to be taken by the West rather than a strong policy of pushing for integration.

    Further, while Yanukovych was rightly being challenged for violence against protestors, the West should not have embraced his overthrow. That was an anti-democratic move that fanned the flames and gave Russia an opening to intervene.
     
  10. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    I understand your points, that the EU and US should have been more careful in the way they handled the protests. However, Putin has been inserting himself in Ukraine for a very long time. I am sure that the posters, here can share a lot of history with us. I have the advantage of knowing (very well) a young woman from Kiev. Yes she is pro-western and she is now a US citizen. However, she is incredibly knowledgeable about Ukrainian history and Russia's interference in their government and economy. The information she has shared with me is overwhelming. Her mother and grandfather still live in Kiev. Her grandfather was always Russia leaning. But, after Yanukovych reneged on the EU economic deals, even he was protesting. Yanukovych, in doing what he did, turned people against him, who were formerly supporters.
     
  11. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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  12. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    My condolences to the victims and their families.
     
  13. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Yes, and that should have been dealt with through democratic processes. If Russia interfered with that, then the world should hold Russia accountable.

    Putin has been interfering and involving himself in a number of Russia's neighboring countries, and we know he has lamented the end of the Soviet Union, in which Ukraine was held captive by the Russian dominated Soviet government. I'm not minimizing t hat history, only saying that the West was calculating too much of its own interest in bringing Ukraine into Europe with its policies and too little concern for the consequences of a divided Ukraine.

    It takes some very difficult state-craft to navigate such situations but avoiding violent outcomes as we are seeing now in Ukraine should be upper most in the minds of those engaging in the diplomatic affairs.
     
  14. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    Yes, it is a tightrope walk. Though, I do believe that initially Yanukovych was told, by Russia, to end the EU deal. So, there was behind the scenes interfering in Ukrainian government. I don't know that it would have been different had Yanukovych finished his term and someone more western friendly had been elected. I think that Russia would have retaliated, even if Ukraine went through proper democratic channels. I do agree that things could have been handled a bit more diplomatically. But, I'm not sure that eventually there would not have been violence regardless. I think it is hard for us to understand that Putin really believes that the former Soviet states are still his, and that he can do whatever he wants there.

    And here is more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=505723
    I know it's Fox, but it turned up on my AOL feed. Are they stupid? They are trying to claim they didn't shoot down the Malaysian flight, you'd think they'd stop shooting planes period! At least for a while.
     
  15. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Yes that is in the NY Times as well. I think the separatists don't really know what the situation they are in is and they are proceeding with fighting the Ukrainian military. And Russia isn't stepping in to pressure them to stop. Very bad situation. :(

    I'm generally very cautious about assessing evidence but I think people who think there's any likelihood that someone other than the separatists fired the missile that downed Malaysian airlines plane are deliberately deluding themselves. No one else was firing missiles from that territory and they were firing missiles from there.
     
  16. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    Exactly!

    Glad the NYT is also reporting this. I don't like to rely on Fox as a source.
     
  17. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    The first victims have arrived in the Netherlands and their motorcade is being greeted by crowds lining the streets to pay their respects.
     
  18. AliasJohnDoe

    AliasJohnDoe Headcase Addict

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    CNN is covering a beautiful tribute to the victims in the Netherlands.
     
  19. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    According to the NY Times Ukraine government is claiming the missiles that down the fighter jets today were fired from Russian territory. This is NOT independently confirmed. Its also reporter the pilots ejected safely.
     
  20. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is not relevent because opponents of bush didn't overthrow him and take control and neither have Obama opponents. Here people wait for elections.
     
  21. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    No one needs to be ukranian to know what has gone in ukraine the past 20 something years. It's been a major news story for months now. There's no way to avoid ukraine stories if you watch any kind of news and because it became a story During the Olympics you could have been just watching he Olympics!
     
  22. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

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    Despite the protests, Yanukovych's fleeing seemed to surprise both the West and Russia (after all he signed a peace deal with the opposition that same day), which is why (I believe) Putin felt forced to run into Crimea to protect Russian military interests there. I can't say that I think the West or Russia really gave tremendous forethought to the situation changing so quickly back in January/February, things just happened at a very startling pace. :(
     
  23. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    One woman from Kiev and her stories are not ukraine! They do not represent very single person in ukraine! I guess you think because of that one man who was pro yanukovych started protesting he represents every single yanukovych supporter. I guess he also supported banning russian in government too like was passed.
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The peace deal was signed but there was no peace and the protestors didn't leave their occupied buildings.
     
  25. allezfred

    allezfred Ragin' for equality Staff Member

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    Two words - Richard Nixon. At least he had the decency to resign unlike the corrupt stooge Yanukovich.
     
    nubka and (deleted member) like this.
  26. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    Um, I already said this, and so has Allezfred - Richard Nixon.

    That is correct. Except you hear what they want you to hear. Sounds like you've been drinking the Russian Kool-Aid.

    She is far more informed than a person who has not lived under Putin's arrogant thumb.

    :eek: We not only agree, we have basically said the same thing! See my post 245! Can it be true?
     
  27. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Nixon resigned because major republican conservatives went to the White House and said they would vote to remove him based upon his crimes. Barry Goldwater was a major one. Nixon didn't resign because a change of position was controversial. He resigned because democrats and republicans united in not wanting a criminal president and was going to be removed.

    The woman in Kiev never lived under Putin thumb. Yanukovych made a deal that was great for east ukraine when the eu offers nothing but destruction for east ukraine. Poroshenko got a deal which included all of Russia's money and more and eu membership. If yanukovych was offered the poroshenko deal he would have signed it. Even when eu said just eu never Eurasia union he would have signed it.

    The woman in Kiev and all ukraine was going to vote next year and he probably would had lost reelection. Why couldn't she wait to vote in elections? Does she hate democracy and want basically a rigged democracy where only pro western / eu people can be elected?
     
    BlueRidge and (deleted member) like this.
  28. cruisin

    cruisin Banned Member

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    And that is different, how? He was going to be removed from office. He tried to retain a modicum of dignity by resigning. Yanukovych could have down the same thing.

    What woman are we talking about? And what do you know of what conditions she lived under. You assume a lot. You seem to have an intense hatred of all things western. Do you really believe there would have been a fair election? Russia would never have allowed it.

    So, either Ukraine gets bullied and controlled by Russia or they get persuaded by EU. I'll take persuasion over occupation, any day.
     
  29. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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  30. allezfred

    allezfred Ragin' for equality Staff Member

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    Any leader who would choose Putin's regime over closer ties with the EU isn't fit to rule his country.

    As for Putin, supplying a motley band of mercenaries with military equipment which is then used to shoot a civilian aircraft out of the sky is a war crime.