Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 possibly shot down in Ukraine (updated)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by GarrAarghHrumph, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    What do you think of the fact that the US government has said it has determined that the missile was fired by the separatists?
     
  2. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    I am waiting for them to explain how they know this. From what evidence. I dont think their experts have had the chance to examine the place of the crash or the remains of the rocket.
     
  3. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    The US has said that the missile was fired from the eastern Ukraine, but they have not, to my knowledge, said that they know who fired it. Do you have a source, please?

    They know where the missile was fired from via their satellite data. The US has been monitoring this area for some time, via satellite. But I have not seen any reports where the US government has said that they actually know who fired the missile. Just that they know that it came from the eastern Ukraine. Here is my source:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=1

    Here is what they said, which I'd posted on page 7 of this thread:

     
  4. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    NY Times: Obama Points to Pro-Russia Separatists in Downing of Malaysia Airlines Plane

    He isn't saying definitively but that is the implication, as far as the NY Times is concerned.
     
  5. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Yes, that is the implication according to the NY Times. But that does not mean the US government has said that the separatists did this. In fact, I've seen Obama go out if his way to avoid saying just that. They just don't have the evidence to support that assertion at this point.
     
  6. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    True they only have the evidence to let everyone connect the dots.
     
  7. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    So you think they shot down the passenger plane deliberately? I doubt it very much, just because I am pretty much sure those extremist criminal morons aren't able to tell much of a difference between the types of the planes.

    Secondly, they are not Russian separatists. Donetsk and Lugansk are still Ukrainian territory. Separatism is a crime in Russia. They may be pro Russian, but never Russian.

    On the side note, I just wonder, what if it finally turns out Ukraine shot the plane down, like it happened back some years ago with S7 Airlines?
     
  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Let me clarify: the separatists are Russian speakers and are ethnic Russians. However, they are not citizens of Russia unless there are mercenaries among them that are in fact, Russian citizens or rossiyane.

    Here's the difference: a russki (masculine, singular) is an ethnic Russian. Could be a citizen of any country.

    a rossiyanin (masculine, singular) is a citizen of Russia and the ethnicity is not implied and could be anything.

    There is no distinction in English for this, hence the confusion.
     
  9. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    I think kosjenka is implying Ukraine shot down the plane In order to obtain a form of sympathy that would cause direct military help from EU/US in fighting the rebels.
     
  10. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    The New York Times refers to them as "Russian-backed separatists."
     
  11. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    That's accurate.

    There is no evidence that the Ukrainian air force was involved. And piles of evidence pointing to the separatists.
     
  12. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Washington Post refers to them as "pro-Russian separatists."
     
  13. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    That's accurate as well. As long as they don't call them "Russians" because that's where the misunderstandings begin.
     
  14. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    How is it possible though that they can say more or less without adoubt where a small missile was fired from while no one was able to pinpoint the exact last location of a much larger airplane?

    As far as taking sides is concerned, I don't think anyone will take any sides. They should all have an interest in resolving this in the most diplomatic way possible because I don't think anyone is interested in this becoming an even bigger war than it already is. Which is also why I believe that, unfortunately, no one will be punished in the end. It'll be ruled an accident, there may be some warning and urging but ultimately, since no one is interested in it becoming a bigger war, I don't think a lot will happen.
     
  15. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    I think ending the conflict so more people are not killed should take precedence, even if it is not satisfying to think whoever shot the missile won't be held accountable. There are trade-offs but ultimately ending the fighting in Ukraine and rolling back the tensions between Russia and Ukraine has to be the chief goal.

    I do think for the sake of those who lost loved ones on the plane it is important to get all information that can be gotten on what happened to the plane. But that is not the same as finding the perpetrators and doing something to punish them.
     
  16. susan6

    susan6 Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure the US (and others) have several satellites dedicated to scanning that region, due to the unrest. The launch of a surface to air missile probably has a very recognizable heat signature (basically being a controlled explosion) that satellites can observe. The missing Malaysia plane, on the other hand, was out in the middle of nowhere, in an area of no interest to people controlling satellites.

    It would be best if the separatists just came forward and admitted that a mistake was made. (Pretty sure that's what happened....hotheads with itchy trigger fingers got their hands on some neat new weapons and were basically looking for an excuse to use them; mistook a passenger jet for a Ukrainian military cargo plane, similar to the one they shot down a few days ago.) This will put pressure on Russia and Ukraine to settle this diplomatically. Problem is....no one wants to admit to a mistake of this magnitude.
     
    Sassafras and (deleted member) like this.
  17. OlieRow

    OlieRow Well-Known Member

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    The IU student, Karlijn Keijzer, is Dutch and was a member of Indiana's women's rowing team as an undergrad. They've been a team steadily on the rise the past few years and it sounds like she was likely an integral part of that as well as a very bright young lady. From USRowing's Facebook --

     
  18. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I fear that if there is no resolution, Ukraine remains at risk. There may be a period where things settle down and agreements are made for peace, but I don't know that I trust Putin and is cronies to adhere to it permanently.

    Are you suggesting that Ukraine shot the plane down for sympathy? I sure hope you're not!
     
  19. Rae35

    Rae35 Active Member

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    It's truly awful. Australian flags are at half mast today. Children, young adults, eminent scientists, families, a nun, so many..... Firing on a cilivilian jet liner is not acceptable.
     
  20. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Honest question: why do you consider this possibility to be a thing that shouldn't be suggested, yet are quite happy to suggest Russia shot the plane down? We don't know who shot it down at this point or what their motives were. It might be a tragic accident, it might be a calculated set-up. The point is that WE DON'T KNOW and no theory should simply be dismissed with a statement like this.
     
  21. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I have read that there is no evidence pointing to Ukrainian forces behind this. Why do you want to maintain a theory when there is no support for it? I would start entertaining it if facts favoring this are unearthed.
     
  22. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    The ONLY facts we know:

    - the plane crashed.
    - there was a missile fired that brought it down.
    - the missile was fired from inside Ukraine.

    We do NOT know who fired it, why they fired it, if they even meant to bring down a civilian plane at all. There is a lot of speculation and circumstantial evidence, but nothing concrete, nothing factual.
     
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    We also know this:

    In late June 2014 the separatists got a hold of Buk missiles and launchers.

    In the past few days they shot down Ukrainian non-civilian planes.

    We have a recording that has not yet been shown to be fake with a conversation between two alleged separatists discussing the downing of MH17.

    We have a separatist leader lying about having this weapon when it was demonstrated that they do possess it.
     
  24. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    But dont the Ukrainians have the same rockets/weapons?

    I wrote that that is how they are called by the media, to be more specific in my case - Croatian media. Maybe pro-Russian rebels is a better term...
     
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Here's the NYTimes article on Karlijn Keijzer, who "was working on a research project that had the potential to help cancer patients and people suffering from Alzheimer&#8217;s disease, her academic adviser said."

    Joep Lange and over 100 other AIDS researchers on their way to an AIDS conference in Melbourne were killed in the crash. Hard to calculate how this will impact AIDS research and policy aside from generalities like humongous.
     
  26. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    Exactly. If it was Ukraine - Poroshenko doesn't need a bad start for the new Ukraine most surely. If it was those separatists, which are obviously backed by Russia - that would just straight away discredit them even more and Putin as well, and Putin doesn't really like it, I am sure. He is so much used to be the man, who does everything right, for the tons of his followers, that this incident wouldn't be a good addition to the image.

    Well, in the next post you mention these points:

    The first fact may as well be a very well-designed fake and of course no one would like the fact of the fake to be discovered, given the scale of the context.

    The second fact: separatists have always been lying about many things. It won't be so hard to make them tangled in their own lies in fact once more, especially when it will work out pretty well in conjunction with the first fact.

    Mind, I am not saying Ukraine or seperatists did this, I am not defending anyone, I am just giving arguments, because Kosjenka and misskarne both made a valid point actually. Until the contrary is proven by the investigators and the court, we have no one to really blame.

    On the side note, Russian media have a ball on the bones started, as it seems:
    http://www.vestifinance.ru/articles/45120

    Article in Russian.
     
  27. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    By the way, in this article
    http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1810146 (in Russian, sorry)

    it is stated that before the crash, Ukrainian ATCs asked the plane crew to lower, according to the statement by Malaysia Airlines. Does anyone have confirmation of this? This is a state owned news channel, so I don't have any trust in it.

    The last passage of the news was probably written by someone who wants it to appear like the plane was shot not over Donetsk region, but somewhere over central Ukraine. It falls to pieces when you start thinking of it. If the rocket hits the wings or the tail of the plane, the fire of the complete loss of control are inevitable. Tail is just like a steering wheel. If the rocket hits the body of the plane, the plane loses hydraulics controls, which is a death sentence for the plane in most cases - it won't be able to land normally. And I am not even mentioning depressurization. It's not Aloha Airlines and Ukraine isn't Hawaii, the plane will not be able to fly at such altitude depressurized. In most cases depressurization at such altitudes leads to the desintegration of the plane.

    Jesus. I can put up with propaganda, but when it's done on the graves - never. Abhorrent.
     
  28. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Did Moscow get the black box first? It seems unlikely that Ukraine downed the plane and handed over the box to Moscow.

    Is it in the realm of possibility that Ukraine did this - sure. But the simplest answer is often the right answer. And that would be that the separatists did this.
     
  29. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    One of the passengers was a former figure skater from the Netherlands. Conney Welsh Penney was the 1992 Silver medalist and went on to coach and choreograph. She was on the plane with her family.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  30. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why the separatists do not let authorities in to at least collect the bodies. The victim's remains are decomposing and they deserve a proper burial, but they do not deserve to get left out in the sun to rot.