Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 possibly shot down in Ukraine (updated)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by GarrAarghHrumph, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    This article is pretty unbiased: http://www.newsru.com/world/18jul2014/poroshenko.html

    The leader of the "Donetsk People's Republic," Kavtaradze denies the authenticity of the tape and also denies having the rockets that have the appropriate range.

    The article then follows up with the video of the separatists moving the Buk system that has the necessary range and even beyond. So at least on the latter count Kavrtaradze is lying.
     
  2. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    In addition Putin's plane crossed that area a full hour before the Malaysian plane. So, the fact that it was so far away and an hour part makes it a pretty ridiculous claim.

    That may be true. However, the people of western Ukraine wanted an association with EU. They wanted a trade relationship, for economic reasons. The EU and US did not, in any way, attempt to annex or take over any part of Ukraine. They may have tried to persuade, but it was Russia that invaded Ukraine and stole it's land.

    I guess, it's already been said, but the rocket probably disintegrated beyond any ability to identify it. However, they can tell from the way the parts of the plane landed, that it was hit.

    I think you need to understand that there is no distinction between the two meanings. CNN is not lying or presenting a biased view, when they state that the Russian media is blaming Ukraine and fabricating a story that Putin's plane was a target. They did and are. Now, whether the people of Russia believe it is a whole other issue. It may be that Russians don't believe what the media is saying, but the media is saying it.

    As has already been said: In April, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration cautioned airlines that Russia's claim to the airspace over Ukraine's Crimea could lead to conflicting air traffic control instructions. A few weeks later, the FAA issued a tougher warning, telling pilots not to fly over the area, and the U.N.'s International Civil Aviation Organization told governments to warn their airlines. Thursday's crash, however, occurred outside the warning areas.

    Not that you were boasting, that the rebels were. Compensation has a lot to do with admitting responsibility. I agree there should have been a formal apology. However, if the US were denying responsibility, they would not have compensated the victim's families.
     
  3. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    Well, yes, but there are two moments in the article which make me feel somewhat strange:

    Poroshenko is going a tad too very much far in his declarations. They aren't doing any good at the moment and in the given context. I thought at least he was cleverer man than Mr Putin. But, as I have stated before, I have really come to the opinion Poroshenko is just the same as Yanukovich, but pro Western. He isn't a good diplomat to start with.

    However, to clear all the things up, what Mr Putin says is completely beyond my understanding. But most of the realities here in Russia are beyond my understanding lately, so that may be just me. However, now it is a very tough time for Kremlin: it's always difficult to try and divert attention when your boys got a wrong toy and used it the wrong way. Good luck to Mr Putin. The sooner he resigns, the better. I just hope he takes Mr Medvedev and Duma with himself. Dancing on the bones is something I would never be able to understand and I am even more sad Poroshenko dancing on it as well.

    Secondly, I really lost any track who is the leader now in what region of Eastern Ukraine. If you want my opinion, bunch of criminals, who try to seize the power and had already started pushing each other. Hopefully, most of them will be captured and tried by the Military Tribunal in Europe.

    Exactly. I am sure many of the "patriots" didn't pay attention to this detail, but the whole story is in fact a complete nonsense, a very lame attempt to distract the attention from those dam criminals in Eastern Ukraine.


    I have never denied this. From the very start I was of the opinion that they are free to choose their own way of life. However, this was all attempted to be done without proper consideration - Eastern Ukraine has always been pro Russian even without deliberate support from Moscow. It was very natural they opposed the agreement (which could of been negotiated anyway) and more to that, the moronic law depriving Russian language a status of the national. Doubt if Quebec had been deprived of French language being national, they would of been extremely happy about that. Some things have to be considered. Anyway, what's done is done, little sense brooding over this all over again at the moment. Especially at this very moment.

    It's all about how it is being said. The way CNN and other western mass media are putting it, Russians are a bunch of terrorists, who can't do anything just make war all around the world and mess in the politics on the world arena. Even here on this board I now see this improper referral to Russians instead of Moscow, Kremlin or even just Russia, non personalised way of addressing. Russians aren't guilty and aren't responsible for what Kremlin does. Many, very many of us are disagreeing with Moscow. We weren't standing there in the fields shooting down planes. If we only could, we would of certainly stopped this stupid war a long time ago. It's just, you know, like blaming the whole nation for the things which actually just a few of us done.


    So basically that was just a technical information, order or whatever aimed at a particular region (Crimea) because of the many technical incompatibilities. No warning was made about the war zone. That's what I was talking about in the first place. Since US intelligence knows a lot of things, they've been following the movement of troops around the Ukrainian border, why didn't they issue a warning for the pilots to avoid all Eastern Ukraine territory? Did they seriously believe Russia doesn't have the necessary weapons capable of bringing down the planes, flying 10,000 meters above them? Just as a precaution, why on Earth hasn't this been done?[/QUOTE]

    The excuses are only valid in such situations when they are made publicly and officially. Compensation is very bad excuse. Basically, you know, we want to reimburse you for the loss, we know this won't bring them back, but nothing else can be done about it, can it? It's not an admittance of the fault, it's not an excuse, it should be official. So the world knows those responsible repent.
     
  4. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't believe people think that. I do believe that most rational people understand that rational people in Russia do not support this. However, when any government does something like this, the reporting addresses the government by the name of the nation. Russia, in this case does mean Putin, Kremin, Moscow, not the people of Russia.

    As I said, a formal apology would have been the right thing. However, the compensation, by definition, is an admission of responsibility.
     
  5. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    There are plenty of things in the world that people can and do blame the US for...that doesn't mean it has to be a part of every discussion of every topic.

    U.S. intelligence confirms pro-Russian rebels shot down Malaysian plane (Washington Post)

    Seems to me the issue is this plane that crashed yesterday. It sure hasn't seemed likely that it was shot down by anyone but the separtists and by mistake, which isn't too say it wasn't a very bad thing.

    The rhetoric of the Ukranian Prime Minister seems way over the top though. I don't see how that's going to help. We have before us a horrendous tragedy of unnecessary deaths, one could wish that people would see a need to de-escalate tensions and try to find a way to less violence.

     
  6. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Some in the separatist movement are saying they have some of the black boxes, some say the black boxes have not been found. So who knows.

    Moscow has said they do not want the black boxes. That they want an international group to review them. Smart move on their part, as it makes it so there can be no accusations of tampering.

    There is concern about the contamination of the crime scene. They fear that any evidence that could have been found has been contaminated, or walked away.

    The UN Security Council is meeting in emergency session as we speak. You can view it here, right now, live:
    http://news.yahoo.com/video/abc-news-plus-special-report-220000361.html

    In that meeting, the US envoy to the UN said that so far, evidence shows that the plane was most likely downed by a surface to air missile (SAM) shot from a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine.

    International monitors have been allowed access to the scene, and are now on the site. The separatists have said they will allow safe access, and will cooperate with the Ukrainian government in order to do so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  7. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    To back up what the US Envoy said in the Security Council session, the NY Times writes that:

    The Times goes on to say that the voice and data recorders that were on the plane are missing from the crash site.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane-ukraine.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=0


    President Obama has just said that at least one American was killed on the flight.

    He has also confirmed what the US envoy to the UN said - that the US has evidence that this was a surface to air missile sent from eastern Ukrainian territory. The US has offered the support of the FBI and the NTSB. There will be no US military presence in this region beyond what they currently do to support NATO. That the US will increase sanctions.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  8. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    In the last half a year at least I've restricted myself to very few threads on FSU and those I visit quite randomly once in several months. So, if someone is running from thread to thread, blaming US for its' mere existence on the planet, I'm not responsible for that.

    I do blame US for some things, but I am still able to recognize their input, achievements and all the other undoubtedly good things they did for the world. If it makes someone feel easier, I also blame the country of which I am the citizen for quite a lot of things.

    However, what I don't like is onesided sandbox kindergarten style finger pointing. That was what started my talking on the issue.
     
  9. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    My God, can those lumpens in Eastern Ukraine just stop that farce. It's just plain painful. For everyone.
     
  10. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    My point wasn't to accuse anyone of saying things out of line just that the U.S. is to blame for many things, in fact, most posters on this board have criticized the US for its role in Iraq quite extensively. I can talk about what the U.S. has done wrong in the world for longer than a Fidel Castro speech any day of the week.

    I just don't see that in this situation that is necessary. I don't think it establishes balance; I think it just takes the thread off topic; of course that is allowed at FSU.

    I feel the US could have played a more constructive role in the situation in Ukraine over time in the sense that I feel the U.S. has been too much willing as has the EU to act as though all of Ukraine wants to be part of Europe and that it is democratic sentiment while half or so of the people of Ukraine don't feel that way.

    But I still don't see that as very much a part of this discussion of this plane which has crashed.

    There is a lot of finger pointing at Russia right now. It is not going to go away by saying the US has also done bad things in the world.
     
  11. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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    :( I feel so sad for this family who lost family members in the MH370 tragedy and again in MH17.
     
  12. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Obama added that the only confirmed American casualty on the flight was Quinn Lucas Schansman. He was a dual citizen of the US and the Netherlands. I think he was a student at business school in the Netherlands.

    I also hear reports of a PhD student at Indiana University, a chemist, having died in this crash. I do not know her name or her citizenship. ETA, that is confirmed. Indiana U released the following:

     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  13. TAHbKA

    TAHbKA Well-Known Member

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    Previous time Ukraine shot down a plane they ended up admitting and paying compensations....
     
  14. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Not you. Anatoly Kornukov.

    Which is why you should read things carefully instead of posting knee-jerk reactions.
     
  15. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    This is an example of what happens when you put sophisticated weaponry into the hands of people you've only trained to pull the trigger but not to fully understand how to use the equipment. Trained personnel would have known this was a commercial aircraft. It was a tragic error on the part of the person(s) who sent the missile toward the plane. Now, it is up to the powers who created the situation to see to it this does not happen again. That includes Russia, NATO and the Ukraine. This is now an international event rather than regional.
     
  16. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    All the sides are doing finger pointing exercises at the moment. At least, until someone finally admits and confesses. However, I thought that reasonable people would be able to avoid joining this entertaining workout. Reality proves me wrong however.
     
  17. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I agree, he should tone down his rhetoric. I am guessing he is fearful that the EU will continue to be rather casual in their sanctions against Russia. Perhaps his hyperbole is a method to motivate more assistance?

    Do you believe anyone will admit to anything? I think it is a 99% probability that the rebels did this. They, clearly, got the weaponry from Russia. Do you really see them admitting it?
     
  18. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    What if no one "confesses"?
     
  19. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Quoting cruisin here to ask FarFarAway a question, is cruisin's statement above what you refer to as finger pointing? I'm just not sure where you are coming from that is why I am asking.
     
  20. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I wonder the same thing. It seems that FarFarAway agrees it was the rebels who did this. So, I am not sure why finger pointing was brought up. I think FarFarAway's biggest issue is that the people of Russia do not get lumped in with the government/Kremlin and thugs in Eastern Ukraine.
     
  21. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    And they should not be, I agree.

    There has been some finger pointing on the part of the governments of Ukraine and Russia but I don't know if that is all that FarFarAway was referring to.

    I don't think that Obama is finger pointing by saying the U.S. believes it was the separatists who shot down the plane. I think if this is the evidence the U.S. has it should put it out there.

    I just hope that the political fallout from this tragedy can be damped down rather than inflamed. We don't need escalation of hostility.
     
  22. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    I dont see what would Russia and the separatists (how they call them on the news here) gain from taking down a civil airplane full of foreigners. All the experts I've heard say you need 4 people to fire this weapon/rocket, and all of them have to be extremely trained.
     
  23. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    Do you think there is anyone who would gain from it? I've assumed all along it was a mistake, whoever is responsible.
     
  24. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    And not a single pair of binoculars among the group?

    The fail, it cannot be expressed right now. :wall:
     
  25. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I don't think anyone believes that they were aiming for a commercial plane. They thought they were shooting at another Ukrainian military/cargo plane.

    And addressing that 4 people would be needed to fire the missile and they would need to be highly trained, one would hope that would be the case. But, in this instance it apparently was not.
     
  26. care bear

    care bear Active Member

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  27. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I saw nothing wrong whatsoever in Poroshenko's statement.
     
  28. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Can you use binoculars to clearly see the markings on a plane flying at 10,000 meters?
     
  29. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Yes, a mistake. If the reports of the conversation between the two separatists are genuine, it does point to a mistake. They thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane AN something but in fact, ended up murdering almost 300 people. They express surprise that the victims all appear to be civilian and there are items from a civilian plane on the ground.

    A mistake--very likely as they were not properly trained to use this weapon and certainly not trained to recognize and identify their targets. Does this excuse them? Absolutely not. Let them be brought to justice as well as those who put this highly specialized weapon in their incompetent hands.
     
  30. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

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    I dont think this was done by a mistake. The narrative is that Russian separatist occupied parts of Ukraine territory and proclaimed their own state, that they are funded and pushed by Russia, yet there has not been any kind of intervention to stop this from EU, USA, NATO or whoever. I remain under impression that taken territory will stay torn apart from Ukraine because no other force has the political or military power to take side in this matter. It does not look like Ukraine is able to get the territory back. Having a commercial plane full of foreigners shot down in territory controlled by Russian separatist, 40kms from Russian border demands EU and US take side and possibly even intervene. From what I read, Ukrainians and Russians have this kind of weapon in their arsenal.
    These are my observations. I dont claim to be right.