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Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 possibly shot down in Ukraine (updated)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by GarrAarghHrumph, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    I wouldn't jumpt to conclusions. This is an international matter with huge consequences for all the sides involved so I believe NTSB with Boeing people and some EU representatives will be invited for analysis. It can't be otherwise, because Kremlin would immediately admit its fault if it doesn't invite at least NTSB and Boeing.
     
  2. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    The black box isn't going to show anything of investigative value, that's my prediction. I would be far more interested in the wreckage and finding the remnants of the rocket that downed the plane, if possible.
     
  3. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    I don't think any remnants of the rocket can be found. However, some pieces of the aircraft, especially when reassembled, as is usual with Boeing and NTSB in similar cases, can prove if the plane was actually shot down or something else happened. Flight recorders will also help confirm if it was shot or not, because it records the pilots' talks and data from the onboard systems. So they are of the great value to the investigators. Voice recorders especially, because the explosion on board will no doubt be recorded. Voice recorders are very sensitive, designed to catch such things.
     
  4. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    CNN is lying when they say Russian media is trying to blame UKraine - but then in your first paragraph you admit they are. You also admit media is saying it is was assasination attempt on Putin but no one would believe it because they say plane goes through Warsaw.

    Then it is West fault- Europeans should have placed more sanctions on Russsia! Then plane wouldn't be shot down.

    I'm sorry but except for the last few sentences, your post doesn't make sense.
     
  5. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    I didn't say CNN were lying. I said that they are biased. Completely and irreversibly, which results in monstrous twist of the facts. CNN says Russian media blame Ukraine. I say our media ARE TRYING to blame Ukraine. Not with a lot of success, in fact. Do you feel the difference between the two? CNN says Russian media believe it was attempt to down Putin's plane. Russian media don't. That's seen by the text of the news, in fact and by rhetorics around it here. So CNN is lying. If you prefer to not distinguish between the meanings - this is all information war is about. People believe what they want to believe.

    I don't care much if my post makes any sense to anyone, in fact. I expressed my point of view, like it or not. If you prefer to argue every single line of my post - then it just proves everything I wrote in it. Sorry seems to be the hardest word. It's always easier to blame one side and pretend that there is only one evil in the world, and that is not us. That's what politicians do and have been doing recently. The result is known.
     
  6. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    The US intelligence confirms that the plane was shot down by a rocket. A heat signature and arming of a surface to air rocket was detected, possibly a Buk type rocket, exactly the type that the Russian separatists had got a hold of recently as reported by TASS and Pravda. And as mentioned, in the past few days, the separatists in the region have been shooting down Ukrainian non-civilian planes. I have read these myself. Now today we have this plus the purported recording of the two separatists communicating and sounding surprised it was a civilian plane.

    A really simple explanation would be that they made a mistake, after all, they are not professionals.
     
  7. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    That's not an excuse for this bunch of criminals, calling themselves Governments of the Peoples' Republics. No one cancelled thinking and analysis yet before you take some actions, especially on deciding which plane to down and which not to. The guilty should be found and taken to court, preferably to some court in EU. Military Tribunal would do.

    Those who didn't close the airspace completely, be they from Ukraine or EU or US should also be taken to the court to answer for their deeds. They knew perfectly well such arms are possible, yet they didn't do anything.
     
  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    Are you under the impression that I am trying to excuse the separatists?

    The US government agency the FAA has been advising all US airlines to stay out of that airspace for quite some time. I understand that many Western European airlines also do not fly over the region.

    Also this:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-ukraine-malaysia-airliner-2014-7

     
  9. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Well, since Air France and Lufthansa have made a decision to avoid the region only yesterday, I presume "many" doesn't mean "major". This shouldn't be an advice, this should be a direct order. Advising when we are talking about lives of people sounds indeed strange.
     
  10. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    That would literally be everybody in aviation.

    British Airways and Lufthansa were flying that route until today, given their statements.

    And the FAA restricted airspace for American airlines, but not the area that MH17 was shot down.

    http://time.com/3001874/ukraine-crash-faa-crimea-airspace/

    You cannot blame the aviation industry for this. The blame solely rests with the guy who launched the missile, and probably the country that supplied him with the weapon far beyond his training to begin with.
     
  11. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    How about this? No US airline has been flying over that air space for some time. I have this from someone who works in the industry who said so today. Whether it was an advice or an order, it was taken to heart.
     
  12. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Ye, got it, I think. Russia is the only guilty. Thanks for clarification. Now I just wish US takes responsibility over Iran Air 655 finally. Just so everyone's equal in the world. Isn't it what all this democractic fuss is about?
     
  13. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    (1) You can't boast about something without taking responsibility for it.
    (2) The U.S. compensated the victims' families; the U.S.S.R. didn't. (And, in fact, after the KAL incident, it was the U.S. that took the lead in getting an international agreement that the families should be compensated in such circumstances).
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  14. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    What I was boasting about? Sorry, my English fails me.

    What does compensation have to do with public apology and admittance of the fault, neither of which US did?
     
  15. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    But the specific area where the plane crashed was not restricted, according to the TIME article I linked to above. Maybe nobody was flying over the area just in case (maybe they have money to pay for the extra fuel), but there wasn't a concrete "DO NOT ENTER" sign.
     
  16. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Which is surprising given all the circumstances, don't you think?
     
  17. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    I was told that no one in the US was flying over that airspace anyway.

    See my post above.

    Why are we talking about the US again?
     
  18. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    You have a source that's big brass at the FAA?

    Not saying you were lied to, I just find it a bit unusual that you have a better source than TIME over what all American airlines are doing.


    I think we're trying to argue whether the US is the most competent in the aviation industry and whether everyone should just follow our lead avoiding war zones and such. :p
     
    IceAlisa and (deleted member) like this.
  19. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    We are? Why?
     
  20. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    I wasn't talking about US in particular unless I was answering to clear referrals to some events in the past. What I am just trying to say is, again, even though those criminals in Eastern Ukraine, as well as Russian authorities have to take a significant part of the blame on themselves, the situation didn't appear just out of the blue. It has been developing for quite some time by now, with many more parties involved, which are also, be it directly or not, involved in it anyway and thus should take some responsibility for this disaster.
     
  21. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

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  22. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Gosh, it seems like no one in the world can say anything critical about Americans, because they are innocence themselves by default.
     
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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  24. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    Well they likely have insurance so it may be a question of whether their insurance company can survive this or not. But particular hugs to the Dutch, the Malaysians and the AIDS research community.
     
  25. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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  26. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    Do you have a link? Would love to see it! Thanks.
     
  27. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    Hence the :p face. It's the only reason I could figure out why we were still discussing the happenings of US airlines.



    I'm wondering if Twitter can pull those deleted posts (they probably can) but once it's on the internet, it's never really gone. I bet there are screenshots at least, but the original posts with the timestamps would be damning.
     
  28. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Oops, I think I can't. Turned out I misread the title a bit, it's the same old rhetorics about Ukraine downing the plane taking it for the Russian spy plane.

    However, I have to note that this time the state owned channels started making inclusions in their news articles about the plane being downed by those militants. This is all wrapped in some wordings like "Kyiv declares without investigation" and the like, but under other circumstances and before this disaster there weren't such wordings at all.

    If you wish more or less objective view on the matter (and speak Russian) I advise you this resource, which is well-known in Russia and isn't controlled by the state:
    http://www.newsru.com/
     
  29. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

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    Thanks and yes, I have native fluency in Russian. :)
     
    Meredith and (deleted member) like this.
  30. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Four the Dark Side

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    Well, good to hear, then you'll see very quickly that this resource actually belongs to Vladimir Gusinskiy, the man who created the NTV channel and emigrated after the state started taking the control over the federal channels. I actually like their mostly unbiased attitude when it comes to reporting the information about different events.