Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 possibly shot down in Ukraine (updated)

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by GarrAarghHrumph, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Between this and Gaza, no wonder why. But in terms of Ukraine, I wonder if, in fact, this might be what ends the conflict. The international pressure on Russia and the pro-separatist movement is about to get massive. So far, they've been doing little economic sanctions; I'm thinking that's about to change significantly.
     
  2. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I had read there were 20+ americans on the plane. That must have been a premature report.
     
  3. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    Global economy is more expensive than people's lives. While this will most definitely end the war, there won't be any serious sanctions. Again, making Russia the only guilty side is completely wrong. West has a significant part of the blame to take upon themselves as well.
     
  4. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    It's not about whose fault it is. I think the writing is already on the wall for Malaysia Airlines. Planes are quite expensive things to own, the loss of one results in the financial losses and expenses, the loss of two in such a short period of time is a financial disaster. Add here the expenses caused by paying out compensations to the families of the passengers, which are huge, and simple mentality of the people - people are extremely superstitious, believing in omens and bad luck. If there's a choice - they will choose another carrier. The best thing which can happen with Malaysia Airlines now is affiliation with some other carrier together with rebranding. The worst - bankruptcy and closure with all the planes being sold to other airlines.
     
  5. Fan123

    Fan123 Active Member

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    Wow! My thoughts and prayers to family and friends.
     
  6. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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  7. care bear

    care bear Active Member

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  8. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    Rob and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

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    There are no words for this. Absolutely no words.
     
  10. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    Not proven yet. Even the opposition parties here admit this video may be a fake.

    PS and the West is as innocent as an angel, ye. I don't mind Putin and all the others being arrested and brought to the courts, but in every conflict there are two sides gullty. Always. Now West has new toy - Russia guilty in all the sins imaginable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2014
  11. care bear

    care bear Active Member

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  12. misskarne

    misskarne #408

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    Not the easiest thing in the world to muddle through when you've just woken up.

    I feel like we may never know who actually shot it down IF if was shot down. The Ukrainians will say it was the Russians, the Russians will say it was the Ukranians, but the Ukranians got to the media first. It may even be that the plane wasn't shot down but coincidentally crashed in the region and the Ukrainians seized an opportunity to say "look at big bad evil Russia".

    Or, if it is true the rebels had shot down another plane, is it possible that debris from that plane somehow interfered with the Malaysian Airlines plane and brought it down? It's too early to say.
     
  13. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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  14. Jenya

    Jenya Well-Known Member

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    :confused: How could Ukraine have had forces in that region to shoot the plane down if they can't even get the crash site secured now? The whole area is controlled by separatists.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  15. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    Judging from the video, and what I thought all along, there was no intent to shoot down a commercial jet. Based on the fact that the rebels have shot down Ukrainian military planes, I have to say, it looks like they thought they were hitting another one and were very wrong. This is just so horrible and frightening. GarrAarghHrumph, I really hope you're right and this may end the conflict. But, I just don't know...:(
     
  16. care bear

    care bear Active Member

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    I just read that Russian terrorists want to send black box to Russia.
     
  17. genevieve

    genevieve drinky typo pbp, closet hugger Staff Member

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    Thankfully close to three decades away from having any control over nuclear weapons :rolleyes:
     
  18. kittyjake5

    kittyjake5 Well-Known Member

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    My condolences and prayers to the families of the victims affected by this senseless tragedy.....
     
  19. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I've been reading for the past few days that the separatists had been downing Ukrainian military planes. They probably thought it was another Ukrainian fighter and shot it down. No words.
     
  20. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    There may be. Usually, in the US, they first confirm that the people really were on the flight, and then notify the families before they give the okay to release this info. So we may still learn that there were Americans on the plane.
     
  21. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    I agree. I'm also not sure why Ukraine would have anti-aircraft weapons in that area, when, as I understand it, the separatists do not have an air force.
     
  22. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    According to CNN Putin is basically blaming Ukraine for what happened, and the Russian media is reporting a completely different narrative from that being heard outside the country. The Russians are hearing that not only is it Ukraine's fault but it was an attempt to kill Putin which isn't true. So they are hardly apologetic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  23. gracefulswan

    gracefulswan Well-Known Member

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    CNN : Certainly Not News. I never get my news from the corporate mainstream media.....CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc..... Not in the past 6 years. thank goodness.
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    No West never takes any blame. As far as the West is concerned Russia is the problem in Ukraine and Russia only and there's no actual native Ukrainian genuinely a rebel against the government.

    All the red white and blue on the Malaysian plan it looks like a Russian flag has been painted on it. But if its all radar oriented of course is totally unlikely whoever shot the plane down actually saw it but rebels have only shot down Ukrainian planes before. It only takes one mistake.

    Russia's being solely blamed and they are going to face crippling destructive sanctions that may lead to giving crimea back to get all the sanctions removed and that's going to be the result of this. Probably Black Sea fleet is ordered out too.
     
  25. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    Why?
     
  26. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    Confirmation that the plane's black box has been sent to Moscow.

    My condolences to the victims and their families. My they find justice and peace.
     
  27. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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  28. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I read that a very prominent AIDS researcher was on board and as many as 100 AIDS researchers, activists, experts, etc were on board traveling to a huge conference. What a horrible loss. Not that the other people on board weren't important and loved.

    And too bad about the black box going to Moscow. Might as well say it was lost.
     
  29. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    This article from pravda.ru also talks about the Donetsk separatists taking over the Buk system, dated June 29, 2014. Some of you may now pravda is a Russian news site and pro-separatist, as is the article itself.

    http://www.pravda.ru/news/world/formerussr/ukraine/29-06-2014/1213991-byk-0/

    In a ridiculous twist today a Russian news site Lifenews, doing awkward damage control, tweeted that eye witnesses report seeing a Ukrainian air force plane following the Malaysian flight. The follow up tweet was--there are eyewitnesses at the altitude of 10 km? :eek:

    Oh and the official version was that this was an attempt to assassinate Putin. (in case he flew commercial aircraft owned by Malaysia Airlines. You just never know)
     
  30. FarFarAway

    FarFarAway Choice is an illusion

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    The missiles don't have to be right under the plane, if it was Ukraine who did this.

    Never believe CNN, not a single word they say. CNN and unbiased journalism are two notions which can never cross their paths. Russian Media are reporting it all like it happened, not much difference from the West, the only moment is that they tend to insist it was Ukraine's fault. The second piece of news about the attempt to kill Putin is sounding akward for everyone here. If they wanted at least anyone to believe in it, they shouldn't have mentioned that the airplanes crossed the paths somewhere around Warsaw, because Warsaw and Donetsk are so far away that really, the news sounds as a poor attempt to shift the focus of attention.

    So no, Russians aren't hearing all this. And stop making Russians guilty in this disaster. Blame Putin, Kremlin, those criminals in the so-called People's Republics, leave Russians alone. None of us has anything to do with the disaster. More to that, if we only could end that war, we certainly would.

    I'll try making my point clear. As I stated above in one of my previous posts, in every conflict there are several sides guilty. At least two in every case. Especially in the political conflicts. Making one side guilty is completely wrong and would do nothing to stop the conflict from developing even further. I am not saying one has to blindly find the second side in the conflict so to blame it as well. Not at all. However, looking back at all that happened during past years and this year, it's very clear there were several sides of the conflict.

    US has always been trying to "plant" the democracy as they see it in every part of the world. Most of the time US has been doing it quite by force. Sometimes the effect was somewhat positive, sometimes quite negative. Besides, their ideal of democracy won't fit into every cultural and political context. Too much freedom they have for even EU countries, not even mentioned Asia and Russia. I have never been narrow-minded conservative, but I can't for the life of me understand some of their freedoms. So, once US wanted Ukraine to be closer to them, they couldn't stop. Democracy needed to be planted. They forgot one moment - Eastern Ukraine, together with some parts of Southern Ukraine, has always been proRussian. Always, since the times long past. They had to take that in account at least. They didn't.

    I'm not even mentioning that when it comes to favorite US past time of planting the democracy everywhere, they don't usually care about the lives of the people. Remember missiles in Belgrade, which "accidentally" hit the commuter train? Ever cared what most of the Serbians still feel and think about it? No, no one cared. Vietnam? Iran Air Flight 655? US never made an apology. I perfectly understand that in the war frenzy anything can happen, but the guilty side has to bear responsibility in any case.

    So it's really a bit strange that when such things happen as the crash of Malaysia MH17 US start pointing fingers (CNN being the leader) and say "Boo, boo, boo, murderers!".

    I am not a religious person, but I remember this passage from the Bible at once:
    "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone"

    EU is also not without a sin in the given case. If they were so much worried about the development of the things in Ukraine before, why didn't they do anything? They could and they had all the powers to do it. I would be thankful for them in the first place if Putin had resigned due to the unbearable sanctions. But now, they were politiking, deciding whether they should be imposing sanctions or not, consulting each other and what was the result? The businesses in EU revolted against sanctions, then the whole countries refused to support the really effective sanctions, so these sanctions turned out to be a subject for the mockery rather than something effective. They basically went the same way France and UK went before WWII. They let the situation develop, doing nothing about it and now they blame only Mr Putin and Kremlin and those People's Republics? C'mon they can't be serious, really. The EU was so much caring about the effects of the sanctions on the global economy, for their citizens that it all ended up in 295 innocent people being killed over Ukraine.

    EU and US have been so busy with helping Ukraine recently, that they have even forgotten to close the airspace over Eastern Ukraine for the passenger planes, even though those Donetsk and Lugansk criminals have been warning them a long time ago they will be shooting down the planes. Where has their care for their citizens been when they ignored the threat? Did they think those criminals were kidding? They are criminals, guys, wake up! They have nothing in their souls, they are empty!

    Just don't tell me Russia is the only one guilty in this disaster. It is guilty, but it's not the only one. There were chances to stop all this massacre long time ago, but all the sides of the conflict ignored it all. And, for God's sake, stop blaming RUSSIANS for this disaster. It's like I would start running around the place blaming each one of you for something. Russians don't have anything to do with this. Most of us are very grieved about this, most of us have friends abroad, I have a lot of friends and acquaintances in the Netherlands and yesterday I spent some hours contacting them all, asking if they have family or friends on that plane. Most of us are just shocked. I've seen lots of photos in the internet from the place where MH17 fell down and I can only hope that if the plane was shot, it all happened in a matter of seconds and all those poor innocent people where dead at once and didn't feel all the horror of falling down and crashing into the ground. They didn't deserve this, my thoughts and prayers are with them.