Lysacek and Weir Comeback: Are they US Top 2?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by skatingfan12, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. skatingfan12

    skatingfan12 New Member

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    Considering Jeremy Abbott and Adam Rippon's worse-than-expected showing at Worlds, are Johnny Weir and Evan Lysacek automatically the top 2 in the US with their comebacks? They both have experience and world medals.

    Do you think they still can compete with the best in the world?

    Even if Johnny and Evan go back to worlds next year, I honestly both of them are done in terms of winning medals at the World or Olympic level.
     
  2. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    I am not sure either way. They could both skate better than ever or they may be completely out of shape for an eligible competition. At least I expect Evan to be ready; I can't imagine him showing up at the US nationals without putting in a lot of hard work. He may not win the nationals, but he might just make the world team. Johnny had struggled before he left the eligible scene. With his personal matters settled in a happy way, may be he will skate better than ever.

    It's too early to call them the top 2 US men. Also I expect Miner, Dornbush and others (Brown, may be) to challenge these two and also Jeremy and Adam. The return of Evan and Johnny will definitely make the nationals even more interesting, regardless of the results.
     
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Who knows?
     
  4. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    We'll be better off with Farris and Brown instead of these 2 coming back.
     
  5. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    duplicate post.
     
  6. Yazmeen

    Yazmeen Well-Known Member

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    Why would we be better off? Not picking on you, but I'd like to hear the logic behind your statement, especially considering triple axels/quads are issues with those two younger skaters.
     
  7. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    And quads and triples Axels are not issues with Evan? LOL, you MUST be kidding! Weir has never landed a clean quad in competition. He always 2-footed or UR'ed it. The climate of men's skating has changed so drastically since those 2 were in the game. Now you have to do the quad and perhaps even multiple quads to be successful. You can't honestly think either can compete with Chan, Hanyu, or Takahashi and be successful unless the 3 of them make many mistakes. Coming back after many seasons being away from competition is not a cake walk; remember Sasha Cohen. Not everyone is cut out to be a Plushenko.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  8. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    You make good points, but the question wasn't whether they can compete with the men on the Worlds podium; the question is whether they can compete against our current US men's crop. ;)

    At first I was happy when Evan and Johnny stopped competing because that left Jeremy (my fave) as the clear #1 US guy. But now I'm thinking maybe Jeremy isn't all that comfortable in that role. So I wouldn't mind if one or both came back. Let Evan or Johnny (or Jeremy if he's up for it) be the Michelle Kwan of the bunch, while Farris, Brown, Dornbush etc. be the Sarah Hughes (i.e., improve and gain experience in the shadows and not be prematurely burdened by enormous pressure).
     
  9. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    The OP questioned "Do you think they still can compete with the best in the world?" And my answer is no. If Abbott skates at Nationals the way he did in 2009, 2010, and 2012, I also don't think they can beat him at that event. JMO.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Weir? Hell no. He was already behind Abbott mostly in 2009-2010 when he last competed, he would be much further behind now. I give him 2% chance to make another U.S World team if he comes back, all things considered. I actually like Johnny, but after his tell all book the USFSA will be out with knives and scalpel waiting for him, barring showing up with quads and things he has never done before. I just wish there were more shows and tours in the U.S to see his beautiful skating still.

    Lysacek? We will have to see if he returns. I dont think he will return since while he could still be competitive in the U.S he would have no chance of winning a major title on the World level, and so it wouldnt be worth it.
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    ITA. I dont think Johnny in an amateur competition would even be able to match his peformances at the 2010 Olympics which were only placed 6th (should have been higher for sure, but he hasnt been in favor of either international or national judges in years), and even those performances would struggle to be top 10 now since the level of mens skating has catapulted much higher since then.

    Evan at his best would get blown away by Takahashi's LP from Worlds, and yet that was only placed 3rd in the LP.

    As for Abbott he hasnt lost to either Johnny or even Evan at Natioanls since 2008 and always seems to skate his best there. The USFSA seems to continue to support him despite his constant failures on the World stage. I dont see Johnny coming anywhere near beating him at Nationals, while Evan would probably have to skate lights out to do so, unless Jeremy has a rare off Nationals (2011).

    I agree with the poster on another thread who said their supposed comebacks are just a PR ruse anyway. After watching the LPs at Worlds either will be scared shitless (rightfully so) to even contemplate it anymore.
     
  12. mgobluegirl

    mgobluegirl Well-Known Member

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    Farris' short program this year was wonderful, both technically and artistically, and the idea of a Brown with a consistent 3A and quad is :swoon:
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Off topic a bit but I also find it funny when people talk about Weir being much more accomplished than Abbott. Evan of course, but Johnny, really? OK Johnny has a single World bronze. Abbott has a GP final title. I would probably actually rather have the latter, if I had to choose, atleast it is a big title just below the level of Worlds, and much bigger than anything Johnny has won. Both have won international events, and 3 U.S titles. Johnny also has two GP final bronzes and has been to 2 Olympics. I say their careers are roughly on par. If I was a skater and aksed which career I would prefer I would probably just flip a coin and take whichever one, I wouldnt have a strong feeling for either, but atleast Abbott could still achieve more if he even gets himself together.
     
  14. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Ok, fair enough, it looks like the OP asked two different questions, one in the title and one in the post. I also doubt they will be back, anyway.
     
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt they come back, but if they do, I don't think they will just be able to show up at Nationals and wind up top 2. It didn't work out for Sasha when she tried. And things have changed since Evan won Olympic gold, he'd need a quad in at least the FS to be competitive now, and it's been years since he's had a consistent quad. Johnny also hasn't done quads in a long time and for him the quad is even more crucial than it is for Evan, considering he had the skates of his life at the 2010 Olympics and ended up 6th.
     
  16. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen Farris's 3a? It's beautiful, probably the best of any US man right now, at least on par with Dornbush, and certainly far, far superior to the 3a of Rippon and Lysacek. He also tried 4t at nationals, he fell and got a <, but it was a good attempt, much closer to being rotated/landed than the quad attempts we've seen from Rippon this season. I know he was landing quads in practices at 2011 nationals (that's how he got injured), so I assume at this point, it's probably fairly consistent and he will be trying it in at least his FS next season. The rest of his skating is very solid too, artistry, spins, flexibility, interpretation are all there and beautiful for someone who's barely 17. His improvement since switching to Damon and Krall in just one season is amazing, so if he continues to improve at such a rate, watch out World! He's also grown a lot recently which is helping give his skating more power, the one thing he really needs to be a contender on the senior stage.

    As for Brown, yeah, he doesn't have the 3a yet, but he works on it a ton. I think we'll be seeing it soon. For him it's more wait and see, but with the strength of his toe jumps, he might have more success with a 4t anyways. But everything else is there and wonderful already.

    I think Chen has a 3a in practice already. I know he won't be eligible for senior internationals until 2014-2015, but that kid is unreal.
     
  17. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I will be surprised if they actually do come back, but pro skating opportunities do seem to be slim pickings.

    I think they could be top in the U.S. and they could do better at worlds than the current U.S. men, but I've never seen a skater add to their technical difficulty this late in their career, and that is what they would have to do to medal internationally.

    Plushenko is the only one I can think of who even medaled after retiring for 2 years, and he was technically far superior to the men of his generation.

    Conventionally wisdom is that an Olympic gold medalist has everything to lose by competing again, but Evan doesn't seem to have much of a career at this point anyway. I suppose he could at least earn some appearance fees.

    As far USFSA and Johnny are concerned, they seem to have buried the hatchet and realized they need each other. Evan seems to be the one who is on the outs. I am hearing that Johnny got 2 Grand Prix assignments and Evan only one. Johnny put in an appearance at nationals, and Evan did not.
     
  18. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    No, I don´t think so. Evan surely could be top 2 at the Nationals, which placement he needs to make the Worlds team. I don´t see Weir making the team, unless he suddenly has become a CoP skater with speed and transitions, which I doubt very much.
     
  19. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Evan has not won over Abbott at Nationals, and why should he waste the best effort there? The second place will get Evan into Worlds team. And in important international events like Worlds and Olympics Evan has won over Abbott although the latter was the US champion.
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Winning over Abbott at those events is hardly impressive considering anyone who could stand on skates won over Abbott at those events. That has all do with how poorly Abbott skates at World events. What was impressive for Evan was that he actually won both events, not that he beat Abbott who as usual fared horrifically. On the other hand if Abbott had delivered his 2010 and 2012 National performances at the 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics Evan would not be either a World or Olympic Champion today.
     
  21. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    I still don't believe that they're coming back.
     
  22. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I'll believe in the "comeback" when I see it. However, in Evan's case, there could be a marketing reason for him to do it ... at least for next season ... since Scott Hamilton (who, I believe, still has plenty to say about who gets SOI contracts) didn't think too much of Evan's failure to come back this year, after so much talk. If Evan does return, I think he will make it to the Worlds team (because he keeps his head in competition) but won't medal.
     
  23. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    When either of them actually competes, we might get a better idea. Until then it's all talk and no walk.
     
  24. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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    Well, Evan won over everyone in 2009 Worlds and 2010 Olympics. And Abbott was the US champion in those years, so in that sense it is impressive to win over him in big events, LOL.

    Yeah, and if pigs had wings, they would fly, LOL.
     
  25. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    Evan? Yes. He's a fierce mental competitor who knows how to maximize points.

    Weir? No. Nobody doubts he has the edges and ability, but those watered down programs and no quad won't help him.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    and that is what it would take for Evan to win a major event ever again, pigs with wings flying in the sky. The era of mediocre programs sans quads winning is extinct for good (tahnk goodness). :lol:

    It is also hilarious there will surely be Evan fans who like to say I said things like that before when in fact I am the one who started a thread 3 months before Vancouver declaring he would win the Olympics for sure. I would be more than happy to linke to that very thread if anyone doubts this as well. The state of mens skating at the time with all the injuries, headcases, guys struggling to return from injuries, and other problems was so dire, and he was receiving such inflated World Champion and Caroll politiking boosted scores, it was inevitable. That was then though, all but an eternity ago when you look at the field and what the men are doing now. He is wise to stay on Star on Ice and come nowhere near the likes of Chan and a revived Takahashi again, other than an ice cream stand.
     
  27. Jaana

    Jaana Well-Known Member

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  28. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Aren't you complaining in other threads that the current dominant guy -- Chan -- has a six-fall advantage over the field and is overrated? But now in this thread you are thankful for Chan being at the top? Which is it? :huh:
    Please do because I sure don't remember seeing it. All I remember is you saying circa fall of 2008 that Evan was all washed up and would never ever win anything major again. But he got out of his rut and won the two most important skating titles.

    Now I'm not saying Evan would beat Chan; I think it rather unlikely. But Evan's mental focus and determination (assuming his body holds up) does give him a chance to make some noise at the World level. A team of Evan and Jeremy next season *might* get three spots back in time for the Olympics, and if that happened I sure wouldn't complain! :smokin:

    Fallback: If Evan doesn't come back, can he please donate his mental game to Jeremy? Pretty please? :shuffle:
     
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  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Even if Chan didnt exist Hanyu and Takahashi skating LPs like they did at Worlds would be far too good for Evan, or Kozuka if he gets back to his 2011 form (remember his 180 LP in Moscow), or a number of the other guys coming up. Pretty much all would agree Takahashi with no quad skating cleanly would have beaten Evan in Vancouver for instance. Yet at Worlds WITH the quad he skated cleanly and came only 3rd in the LP. Imagine Evan even at his best in that competition, sorry.

    As for Chan I am happy for Chan pushing the boundaries of the sport in general, I am not happy with the over the top scores he receives which give the impression no matter what he does and what his competitors (by that I mean other tremendous quality skaters like Takahashi, not just good skaters like Evan) do they couldnt beat him. Regardless of the overall result he certainly did not deserve to beat Takahashi in the LP portion of either the GP final or Worlds, something all but the most devoted Chan fans (which includes the judges these days as well) seem to concur on. That is another topic though.


    Well yes I agree a team of Evan and Jeremy could possibly get 3 spots back. If Evan comes back in his 2009/2010 form he could get a finish around 5th or so, and if Jeremy has a good but not great sort of competition (eg- 2010 Worlds) he could also finish around 5th or so. That really has little to do with the thread title about Even and Johnny already being the top 2 and Evan and Johnny being capable of being at the top at the World level today.

    As for my thread all but ensuring Evan would win the Olympic Gold, check in my threads created section, you should see it in December 2009/January 2010 sometime as I am sure it was right after the GP final I made it. I forgot you need to be a payed member to perform that action. As for Evan being washed up in late 2008, 95% of the posters here thought that too, but the field was so weak and inconsistent in 2009/2010 then it was easy for anyone to make a comeback, just as Czisny capatilized on the all time low U.S womens field to make a couple comebacks which would have never happened in the Kwan or Cohen era.
     
  30. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested to see what either can do. I don't have very high expectations, but who knows.

    While I prefer Johnny over Evan, I think Evan has better chance at a successful comeback (if he actually comes back). Johnny wasn't top 2 US men when he left. I don't think he can expect to be coming back.