Lutz vs flip credit

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by icedancefan, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. icedancefan

    icedancefan New Member

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    If a lutz is performed on the opposite edge why is it not graded/credited as what was actually done -flip-instead of the "intention" ? As far as I am concerned it is fraud.
    If I see 3+2 and I write 6 as the answer, will I get credit for "5" because that was my real intended answer? The set up is irrelevant.
  2. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

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    After the Joubert debacle at Europeans, I'd be totally in favor of just calling the jump based on whatever edge it takes off from. That way, there wouldn't need to be e or ! calls, and more importantly, it would make the skaters learn to do the jumps correctly in order to avoid the Zayak rule.
  3. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    Completely agreed with everything said in this post!
  4. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think that the Flutz should be worth less than either a flip or a lutz and same with a lip.
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    A flutz is not a flip and a lip is not a lutz!

    Those jumps are not just determined by the edge alone but also the direction you skate in.

    On a lutz you are skating in the direction opposite to the direction of rotation. Hence rolling on the inside edge helps you to stabilise yourself.

    On a flip you are skating in the direction of the rotation. Hence rolling on the outside edge helps you to stabilise yourself.

    Remember when you first learned how to do three-turns. Or if you can't do them very well, try doing them and see what happens. You will usually have trouble holding the edge and get thrown off balance and end up going way too deep on the edge, effectively making a circle.

    That's why some skaters lip and flutz.
  6. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    This is quite brilliant. Just categorize them as two separate jumps. We'd have a lutz and a flip, and then a flutz and a lip...four jumps total. Seeing as how the majority can't seem to get one or both right, it may be time to adjust the rules. Of course that would mean raising the value of the lutz and flip to reward those who do manage to execute it correctly, but given the flutz/lip epidemic, maybe grading them as separate jumps instead of punishing them as incorrect jumps may be the best course of action.
  7. danafan

    danafan Canadian ladies ├╝ber

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    I get what you're saying, but some of the skaters who lip are on that outside edge so long I'd argue they are actually doing a lutz. Sokolova and Volchkova come to mind. What do you think of their triple flip attempts?
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    They're still skating in the direction of the jump rotation.

    Outside edge pulls them in one direction, skating in the opposite direction pulls them in another. Result = stability and balance

    Which is why they lip.

    And which is why lips and flutzes should be worth less than both flips and lutzes. They are easier.
  9. anna1506

    anna1506 New Member

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    I agree! :respec:
  10. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    I really would appreciate. I never understand when a flutz get more points than a flip
  11. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Have you found it easier to do a flutz than to do a flip in your own skating? I find the flutz harder because it starts out counterrotated on the approach, whereas the flip is always traveling in the direction of rotation.

    But in effect the flutz is worth the same as a flip, or less, because it gets a GOE reduction. For singles, doubles, and triples, under the current scale of values, a lutz with -1 GOE is worth the same as the base mark for a flip. For a really bad change of edge, the judges might take off more than -1.

    I can't speak to the relative difficulty of (true) lutz vs. "lip" from personal experience because I can't do either from a true outside edge.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  12. tkaug

    tkaug New Member

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    If a skater does a lip after a half-loop in a 3-jump combination, will it be recognized as a combination or a sequence? I know only salchow and flip(jumps taken off LBI) are recognized, but it they do a flip with LBO, what then?
    Plushenko did 3A+half-loop+3F combination(sequence?) at the Olympics in 2002 but I think he lip'ed on the flip. In the current judging system, will it be recognized as 3A+1Lo+3F e or 3A+3F+SEQ e ?
  13. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    The former, I think.
  14. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    Not so.

    Here are the protocols from the 4CC Ladies' FS competition:

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2013/fc2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

    Asada, Suzuki, and Osmond get flutz credits of 5.7-5.8, which are higher than the base value for a Flip at 5.5

    In all the above cases, there are some judges who are awarding them with positive GOE's.

    Please jog my memory, since I don't remember...are judges able to see the Tech callers' edge calls before giving GOE, or are GOE's given without seeing the edge calls?

    Either way, I am extremely doubtful that the judges would have thought that the edges were correct, since Asada, Suzuki and Osmond haven't demonstrated a consistent ability to do correct Lutzes (and more like a reputation for flutzing). They are giving out positive GOE's regardless of the edges. A very dubious practice, IMO.
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    From: http://www.usfsa.org/content/First Aid Singles.pdf
    The judges are supposed to assess the quality of the jump in all of its phases (not phrases), from entry to takeoff, height in air/distance covered, and landing.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  16. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    In real time right after the jump happens during the program, judges just see the code for the jump (e.g., 3Lz). The e calls are added after the program when the tech panel does their reviews.

    The way the rules work right now, the "e" call can mean either severe wrong-edge takeoff (judges are supposed to subtract -2 to -3 from whatever they give for the rest of the element and the final GOE must be negative) OR unclear edge (judges are supposed to subtract -1 to -2 and the final GOE does not have to be negative).

    So with the current rules, neither we nor the judges know from the call whether the tech panel considered the takeoff edge to be severely wrong or simply unclear.

    There are three possible scenarios where a judge could end up giving 0 or +1 or very very rarely +2 to a jump with an edge call:

    *In real time the judge sees at least 2 positive bullet points (+1) or 4 (+2) or 6 (+3) positive bullet points to the element as a whole and also notices that the takeoff edge was unclear or there was a slight last-minute change of edge. So they start with +1 (or +2 or +3), deduct -1 or -2 for the unclear/changed edge, and end up with 0 or a less-positive final GOE for the element, which they input right away. At the end of the program they see that the tech panel has called "e" and conclude that the tech panel agreed with them about the slight problem on the takeoff edge and confirm that their original calculations were correct. Good judging.

    *In real time the judge sees several positive aspects to the element and does not notice a problem with the takeoff edge. They give a positive GOE in real time. After the program they see that the tech panel has called "e." "I didn't see a problem with the takeoff edge," the judge thinks. "The tech panel saw a problem on review, so there must have been at least an unclear edge. Since I didn't see it, the problem couldn't have been too severe. I'll subtract -1 from the score I started out with." And so if they started out with +1 they change it to 0; if they started out with +2 they change it to +1. Adequate judging.

    *The judge sees nothing wrong and maybe several things right about the element in real time and awards 0 or positive GOE. After the program they're so busy inputting their component marks or adjusting other marks that they fail to notice the "e" inserted by the tech panel after the review and don't go back to adjust the GOE for that jump. A mistake in the judging process.

    Right. If the judge sees four positive bullet points and one minor negative point (unclear takeoff edge), then +1 is an appropriate score for that element.

    As outside observers, we have no way of knowing which of the above occurred just by looking at the protocols. Watching a video that was taken from a different angle than either the tech panel or the judge got to see is only slightly more helpful in guessing which scenario occurred.

    For a few years there were different marks for the severe incorrect edge (e) vs. unclear edge (!). At that time, if the tech panel called the "e" and the judge gave positive GOE, then we knew that the judge made a mistake. But that is no longer the case.

    ETA: If the judges see enough good qualities in the jump to give positive GOE before deducting for the takeoff edge, then if it were called as a flip they would give the positive GOE with no reduction. E.g., if a 3Lz e ends up with +1 GOE (6.0 + 0.7 = 6.7), then the 3F would probably get +2 GOE (5.3 + 1.4 = 6.7).
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013