Lutz and flip edges at U.S. Nationals

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by RFOS, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I hope it's OK if I repost this analysis from the "Genesis of bad technique" thread in the Trash Can (http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=77496&page=3), because the topic seems appropriate for GSD and I put a lot of work into the analysis and at least want to hear other poster's thoughts. It was said that one would have to be "choosing to ignore" the "clearly wrong" edges of Wagner and Lam's lutzes and anyone who couldn't see them in real time is "on the cuckoo bird train." :p I disagree, and I'm not choosing to ignore anything, but trying my best to analyze it closely and objectively. I'm open to hearing others' dissenting opinions, even if you think I'm "cuckoo." Please try to provide evidence to support your opinions (the fact that such-and-such a skater has the reputation for being a flutzer doesn't count as evidence. :p)

    All of the videos for these screen caps were easily found on Youtube and mostly from the NBC coverage (I think Gao's SP video was from Japanese TV coverage).

    EDITED the last big quoted section because I forgot to list Czisny's lutz in the "clear" category and that made it more like 50/50 as to how many were "clearly correct" in real time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
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  2. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    BTW, I did notice on a second reading of the ISU document above, that a "wrong takeoff edge" is USUALLY identified without any review in slow motion "which can only be used if the camera angle does not allow to see the take-off edge at normal speed." So it sounds like the tech panel CAN use slow motion if necessary (but probably not screen caps?), at least at ISU events (I'm not sure if that wording is a change from last season). In that case, I might be able to add a few more "e"s (likely Gao's lutzes, possibly Siraj's flip, maybe Lam's SP lutz, and I'd definitely like to review Wagner's FS lutz in slow motion). I can't look at the videos now and can't remember in all cases which ones showed slow motion and which screen caps I just took from the regular speed video.

    The document very clearly says that CHEATS on the takeoff may only be watched in regular speed, with no exceptions given.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  3. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the analysis, RFOS. I was quite surprised at the very poor quality of the clip that they showed to explain the calling process. If that is representative of the general quality of video they're working with -- and with only real-time analysis allowed -- I'd guess that the only way you get an edge call is if the edge is egregiously bad or the camera just happens to capture a great view because of where the skater places the jump. (And if I were a coach, I'd make sure to place iffy jumps at the part of the rink where the camera is least likely to be able to grab a useful image. -- Any sense of whether that's being done?)

    ETA: OK, I see that they might be able to use slo-mo to a degree, but I'm still of the opinion that the quality of the image is terrible.
     
  4. nanigirl

    nanigirl Member

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    Awesome analysis! Thank you! I agree with all your conclusions.

    I have a couple clarifying questions: So, the panel is supposed to give only possible minus GOE on a flip where the skater's edge goes from outside to inside and at the time of the pick, the edge is inside? Also, the panel is supposed to give only possible minus GOE on a flip or lutz where the skater's edge starts on the correct edge but then at the time of the pick, the edge is flat?

    Thanks!
     
  5. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness Happy Russian Hunger Games!

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    ISU Communication 1611:

    2010-11 ISU Technical Panel Handbook:
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  6. nanigirl

    nanigirl Member

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    Ah, thank you. So that explains why Mirai's flip and Ashley's lutz get "e." Mirai's flip starts on the wrong edge and Ashley's flat edge lutz is an unclear edge at take off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  7. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting that. It does give a slightly different wording (not surprisingly, from the ISU ;)). Having "!" alternately referred to as "change of edge at takeoff (short)" and "unclear edge at takeoff" last year was a bit confusing also. I'm not sure why they got rid of the "!" honestly, I think it's better to acknowledge that some things are unclear and have an option if an incorrect edge is suspected, but very slight, or not CLEARLY visible given the limitations of the camera angle, video speed, etc.
     
  8. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Which "panel" are you talking about?

    The technical panel gives an edge call, or not. They don't give any GOEs.

    The judging panel (individually) gives GOEs, based on what they saw during the program and on any calls relayed to them by the technical panel.


    But really, the way it works now, if a judge saw a great jump with no edge problem, and the technical panel calls an "e," the judge has no way of knowing whether it just looked borderline/unclear to the tech panel on replay, or whether it was clearly incorrect.

    So how many judges in that situation would stick to their own perceptions, believing that if there was an edge problem it was negligible, and give +1 or +2 on the theory that they could have given +2 or +3 without the edge call?

    Or how many would think "Well, I didn't see an edge problem, but I was looking at the jump as a whole. The tech panel scrutinized the edge with replay. I'll take their word that there was a problem and not give positive GOE."?

    Obviously, if they saw a blatant edge change/wrong edge, they should give negative GOE whether the tech panel calls it or not.
     
  9. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I have a question. If there is a skater out there who both flutzes and lips, could they simply call the jumps differently to avoid (e) calls? I don't believe a flip has to be entered from a three turn, does it? So if a skater does a "flip" because they know they will badly flutz and then calls their flip a "lutz" because they lip, would the judges be able to do anything about it? Who says you can't do a flip with a long back gliding edge going into it? Who says you can't do a lutz from a three turn and quickly change edges to an outside?
     
  10. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Those are definitely good questions. I'm not a technical specialist or controller (other than an armchair one who doesn't do levels... yet ;)) but it would be a good question to ask one of them. What I know is that they are supposed to go by the "intent" of the skater. I heard from someone that a particular former international skater put 3Lz on her planned program sheet. It was a skater who "lipped" but did not have a 3Lz. The technical panel at that event didn't buy it. I believe she entered her 3F/"Lz" from a 3-turn but I'm not sure.

    If you look at Mirai's flips from Nationals, she does a 3-turn, coming out basically flat, then rocks onto a strong outside edge and appears to switch back to an inside at the very last second (Sasha, Rachael, and Caroline have all done something similar in the past). It's pretty clear she's intending to do a flip, if only because she already did a 3Lz in the SP and you can't do the same jump twice. :shuffle: Even if she didn't switch back to an inside at the last second, it would still look like a flip attempt to me.

    Contrast that with Richard Dornbush's 3Lz in his free skate, entered with a FO rocker instead of an FO 3-turn. He comes out of the turn on a strong outside edge and takes off almost immediately for his lutz. It's a really cool and difficult entry, but I had to pray that it was going to be called as a lutz, because I've heard of a skater who attempted a lutz from that entry, thinking it was a difficult entry to a lutz, and had it called as a "lip." (I'm not sure how well the skater executed the rocker because I didn't see it). I love that entry to his lutz and because he's on such a good outside edge coming out of the rocker, it looks like a lutz to me. However, if he slipped up and got sloppy on the rocker so it became like a 3-turn, I'm worried he might get it called as a lip.
     
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  11. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    :D I love armchair calling at my house. I learned how to do spin levels about a year ago and now it's pretty simple. (But only after a LOT of practice on icenetwork) I still don't know how to do footwork and I probably never will. It just seems too difficult and complex.

    After the event is over, I compare my notes with the protocol.

    [/end personal story]
     
  12. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I think it is too difficult and complex for one person in real time -- that's why there are three people on the tech panel.

    I'm sure it helps to have done all those turns oneself and feel the checks in one's body. I see a rocker or a counter and I usually know immediately that it was either a rocker or a counter, but I need to stop and think about which one it was, and by the time I figure it out the skater has already executed several more steps.
     
  13. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    :lol: Usually if I don't immediately recognize what a turn is, I figure it was a counter. But I'd also miss several other steps thinking about it was before I realized that it was almost certainly a counter. For some reason my brain just can't process counters when they're mixed in with anything else. I was working on a few different kinds of counters last week and had a phobia that I was going to turn the wrong way and would sometimes just lock up before the turn. For some reason, I just couldn't wrap my brain around which way I was supposed to turn, even though if I did turn in the wrong direction (with the same entry and exit lobes, which is what would have happened) I would immediately realize that I had done a rocker. Somehow that logic doesn't work for me in reverse.

    And don't even get me started on choctaws... ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  14. WayCon

    WayCon New Member

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    My understanding is that the printed rules are only a rough, general description of an interpretive process that the judges learn from other judges during many lengthy training sessions. Thus, the rules are not as important to judges as what they learn from their fellows. In that context, I am told that for a questionable Lutz what the judges are really looking at is the skater's knee--does the knee roll over just before the jump. In a Lutz this is most likely the case if the skater doesn't bend the support knee enough and is forced to roll over in order to reach down to the ice to pick. (I believe Mao is an example of this.) A true and pure triple Lutz is almost impossible to do, so most skaters stay on an outside edge by bending their ankles outward--many a good Lutz jump is done on an inside turn on an outside edge, which sounds impossible, but isn't.

    Would an experienced judge agree with this? Hard to judge.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  15. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I've never heard that about looking at the skater's knee, and am not sure what I'd be looking for there or how it would be helpful to look for that when trying to determine an edge change in real time. Even Zawadzki, whose blade is tilted very strongly to the outside has her body (including her knee) leaning to the inside in the screen cap.

    I do know that it's possible to have the boot turned one way but be traveling on the wrong curve (the curve you'd expect if the skater had the blade tilted the other way on the same foot), and you're right, I did think it was impossible until I saw an example on video. I've never noticed it on a lutz. Maybe on super-duper slow-mo. Would you say it's more likely to happen during the split-second after the skater's picking toe has gone into the ice but before the original skating foot has left the ice? It seems like that's when it would happen because the curve of the entry is (ideally) pulling the skater to the outside and the toe picks in to the inside of the skating foot and forces the skater to immediately start rotating in the other direction. Although as you can see in some of the screen caps, even the skaters with true lutzes tend to lean way INSIDE the circle just prior to takeoff (Zawadzki has the best view of that, Flatt did also if you look at the video that shows her upper body). I still don't see the weird edge phenomenon with them though, but I'm sure it would be hard to even perceive if it happens quickly because it's not something I'm used to looking for.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  16. WayCon

    WayCon New Member

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    This is a subject for further study, RFOS. With 4CC and Worlds coming up we can try to interpret what the judges and technical panel are doing. And, maybe, at some point, some judges might say something about it, here at FSU, or elsewhere.

    One friend of mine, who is not a judge and is interpreting the rules to the letter, says "flutz" nearly every time he sees a Lutz. If he is on the ice himself, he will look at the mark left by the left blade just before take-off, and, in general, he seems to find an S (really a backward S) at the point of takeoff.

    As for the knee roll, when you see someone really flutz, as for example with Mao sometimes, her knee rolls way over--there is a lot of clear motion to her right--and, thus, she takes off in a clear flip position. In other cases, it can be very vague, especially with a twisted ankle--which edge actually was taking the weight?
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2011
  17. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn't surprise me really (especially if the weird "outside-tilted blade on the inside curve" phenomenon is common, but happens too quickly to be perceived), but taking that same type of view and going by the exact letter of the rules probably just about every jump (except maybe some rare jumps that are what we would normally call overrotated and probably wouldn't be landed with any control :p) would be considered "underrotated" too just due to the physics of the jump (i.e., I don't think doing a loop with 3 full revolutions in the air without any blade would be possible, unless it was a really cheated quad. ;) The turning on the toepick is needed to initiate the rotation).

    I'll have to try to look at my lutz tracings really closely next time I skate, now that I've gotten really obsessed with the issue ;), but my coach and I did look at one once where I had a very light tracing that switched onto the inside curve which was due to my blade still being on the ice (and in the process of lifting off of it) after I picked in to take off. So I may have picked in when I was on an outside or flat but switched over slightly after that, which I suspect would be visible on some of these "unclear" edges.

    If only I had millions of dollars so I could buy really high tech equipment to set up in rinks and a lab to analyze the physics of jumping down to the atomic level, because I'm feeling just that geeky right now. ;)
     
  18. WayCon

    WayCon New Member

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    That's a good feeling--the spirit of inquiry.

    And, of course, as we all know, a jump, by it's very nature is under rotated. I'm sure you're coach has said to you that a single jump is only a half turn, double is one and a half, and a triple is two and a half. And since you can't land absolutely flat back, you land before you've finished the last rotation. For a single jump, you almost don't need any rotation at all.
     
  19. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    For our next episode, we will be featuring obsessive slow motion and screen cap analysis of jump takeoffs and landings. ;)

    I did some of that before a while back. :shuffle: I also recall someone posting some videos of various triple loops a few years ago and hypothesizing that Evan Lysacek's loop (at least in this particular competition) was less stable because he DIDN'T pre-rotate enough (Jeff Buttle was one he was compared to and pre-rotated an entire half revolution and Evan pre-rotated less than that). I assume this is the reason the rules are so adamant that any cheat on the takeoff has to be obvious in real time and can't be viewed in slow motion, because otherwise everything would be called as underrotated/downgraded. The jumps that don't look cheated in real time at least have the skater facing the same direction on the overall entry and exit edge (except for the axel), though there's going to be some (possibly a lot) of prerotation and at least a slight underrotation from when the toepick first touches the ice to when the full blade is on the ice and the skater glides out of the jump.

    The one time I saw myself skate on video, my jump mechanics were so slow that the prerotations were really obvious. :shuffle: My lutz was definitely prerotated more than it should've been but the others may not have been more prerotated than they "should be", just slower. I bet they would've been deemed underrotated/downgraded though, if I had been competing under IJS. At least good skaters have quick enough mechanics that they don't look as prerotated as they really are to the naked eye in real time. :shuffle:

    My natural tendency is to take everything literally and try to pick apart the minutiae of language of rules (I majored in philosophy as an undergrad, which let me pick apart arguments and caused me to be extra careful about exactly how I worded things in papers :p). So it's a challenge for me to realize that things really aren't as they seem and can't be taken TOO literally, so you do have to go by the "forest" and the overall impression sometimes rather than the "trees" of what actually happens on the molecular level. ;)

    "OMG, everything's a flutz and everything's cheated!" :eek: What next? Has my entire life just been a dream? Am I really just a brain in a vat being manipulated by a mad scientist? :drama: (Sorry, there's the philosophy dork coming out again. :shuffle: )
     
  20. WayCon

    WayCon New Member

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    Seems like you're bordering on a dialectic between Frank Carol and Ludwig Wittgenstein.
     
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  21. Screenie

    Screenie Active Member

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    My general thoughts: I wish this whole edge-craze would go away. Between the skater with the proper edges and the skater without, I prefer.... the better skater which has nothing to do with either. Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Irina Slutskaya, Sarah Hughes, Nicole Bobek, Tara Lipinski --- I love them all and don't really care what edge they're on. It's also mostly just habit and not anything innately more difficult -- e.g. if you asked Mike Weiss to take off an inside edge on his lutz, he wouldn't think it's easier, he'd think it's harder, just like MK would have a harder time of the opposite.

    Anyway, please wake me in 20 years when people no longer care about the edges.
     
  22. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Bravo. I think that the edge call is another way for judges to pigeon-hole skaters whom they don't want to reach the upper echelons, like boosting the artistic mark. For skaters like Mirai who have a reputation now as a "!" mark skater, she will be looked at with much more scrutiny than others, whether she deserves it or not. I agree with the person that said a "true triple lutz" is nearly impossible to do. Most skaters WITH correct edge calls look like they're doing it incorrectly. It's too wishy washy of an area to hold so much importance with scoring. If it's that darn important, then there need to be ice-level cameras in all four corners of the arena.
     
  23. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Well, I actually think that take off edges are important...I mean why should someone like Rochette and Ando who worked to fix their edges receive the same values as notorious flutzeres such as Asada and Murakami? These jumps were invented years ago, and I believe credit should be given to those who perform them correctly.

    And there are plenty of skaters who can do a very good "true lutz" and always have..Kim, Kostner, Czisny, Slutskaya, Sokolova**, Lepisto, Phaneuf, Sebestyen, Tuktamysheva, Meier...all of these women and many more can perform correct lutzes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2011
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  24. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

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    ITA
     
  25. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
     
  26. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    OOPS! I meant to say Sokolova!!!
     
  27. muffinbiscuit

    muffinbiscuit Member

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    Great lutz entry
     
  28. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Ah! :)

    How many of those ladies have a true flip, though?

    In terms of doing both (triple) flip and lutz jumps correctly, I can only think of a few ladies:
    Harding
    Rochette
    Flatt
    Butyrskaya
    E. Hughes
    Ando, but she has now dumped the flip

    Sometimes did both jumps correctly: Slutskaya, Kwan, Ito, Kim, others?
     
  29. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    I think Korpi has correct edges on both...when she actually rotates them! Kostner, V. Helgesson, McCorkell
     
  30. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    Even Slutskaya, Kwan, and Ito had slight flutzes. And even from the ones you mention, some of them had to work on fixing the edge (ie Ando and Flatt).

    Also adding to the list, Lu Chen and in most cases, Surya Bonaly.