Let's move to next season: Will we see the first ISU rectified 4F and 4Lo and 4T+4T?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by da96103, Apr 27, 2011.

  1. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    whats the use of doing a 3a-4t except for the wow factor?Kill himslef? when ever I see such stuff from Plu I want to punch his head to be back in place.
     
  2. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    6,237
    WTF? Going on this logic, no-one should ever try any new jump or combination, because what is the point except for the wow factor? :rolleyes:

    Inventing things, trying new things, is just the way Plushy rumbles. Especially if he's facing a legitimate challenge. I think he enjoys pushing the limits of what is physically possible.

    IIRC, the 3A-4T combo would be worth quite a bit because of the second jump having more rotations than the first, although please correct me if I'm wrong. It adds to his difficulty, his TES, and why shouldn't he try to push it higher?

    It seems at the moment, however, that he's more likely to be chasing his 4Lo and 4Lz for this season. Apparently he's landing 4S and 4Lo consistently in practice and is fine-tuning his 4Lz. He had it once; it's not so hard to imagine he could have it still or have it again.
     
  3. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,955
    He can already do a 4lz.
     
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,012
    Ah but you know won't really count until Rippon lands a 4Lz in competition, preferably an international one. :)
     
  5. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,955
    Yes, and I will be rooting for him to do it!
     
  6. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,968
    Doesn't count at all until it's landed in competition! Lots of skaters have practice quads.

    I hadn't heard that he "had" one yet- just that he was working on it, and landed it a few times.
     
  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    I don't think we will ever see a 4toe/4toe to be honest.

    I mean, given Plushenko's best 3axel/4toes that are recorded are 1/2 rotation short...

    I hope that Savchenko/Szolkowy will land a throw 4flip.
     
  8. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,508
    It's not the same to try it after knee injury at 28 when you don't need it to win, and try it at 16, when healthy and newbie at senior level.
     
  9. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    ^ this.

    Plus how it adds to his Tes this combo, it is one 3axel + one 4toe no matter where you put it, the sum is the same. This makes sense to add it if he has different kinds of quads in his program and wants to free a pass, anyway i find the combo insane, how from the exit of 3axel to generate the 4t without injuring yourself or falling in your face flat.
    Yes Evgeni can want to push the jump department forward but for a benefit in his marks, it makes as much sense as like having the 4-3 in Lp whereas he could have avoided it and could add the 3t in a 3 combo jump, get the same marks and have more air to breath in his Lp.
    Or rules have changed and combos are marked different and I dont know it?

    Plushenko has said 4t-4t is impossible, not only the combo itself (i m sure he has tried all kind of sick combos in practice) but to add it in a program, he said you need 20 - 30 seconds to come back to normal breathing and proceed your skate. But the way I see Chan throwing the quads lately, maybe we ll see it ;)
     
  10. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    11,968
    He could do an Amodio style dance break to give himself time to get his breathe back.
     
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,508
    See, we will agree on everything soon ;)
    It takes a lot more energy than a Plushenko style posing. :p
     
  12. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    600
    LOL what a silly question! Unless the skater is bionic...sure, he/she will be throwing 4Lz+3Lo or 4A+4T left and right...
     
  13. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    I know! Isnt it worryinG?:cool:
    have you forGotten Plu CrGbs of his youth?
     
  14. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Actually, the way COP is set up, there's very little incentive to do a brutally hard/impossible combo like a 4t-4t or 3A-4T
     
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,746
    This is why I'd like to see a competition (or competition segment) for isolated jumps outside the context of a program.

    That would be a much more practical format in which to encourage skaters to push the envelope with rotations and combos that take too much out of them to perform in the middle (beginning) of a fully loaded competitive freeskate.
     
  16. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    6,237
    When you don't need it to win? I may not like Chan, but I can accept that he's turning into a bloody good skater and if he can land that 4T consistently without turning into human Zamboni he will be a threat to Plushenko.

    I don't blame Plushenko for rolling out every weapon in his arsenal to stay at the top. In fact, it makes it more fun. Everyone thinks they're getting close to even with him in the jump department...BANG, he raises the bar again. :lol:

    He knows he needs the giant TES scores because he'll never get the sort of PCS that Chan gets. He could put in every transition in existence, have the most beautiful choreo ever made, interpret it perfectly, and he'd never get the PCS scores that Chan does. There's nothing wrong with him trying to compensate for his PCS with his TES.

    So while I do fret about his knee somewhat, if he wants to push the jumps to another level and throw down the gauntlet to the others, why not. Go right ahead! It will be fabulous!:rollin:
     
  17. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    6,237
    There used to be a pro competition like that. I think it was called Top Jump? It would be freaking awesome to see all the combos busted out.

    On the subject of combos, I'd love to see Plushenko return his 3A-.5Lo-3F!
     
  18. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Messages:
    20,790
    I think if anyone could do a 4toe/4toe it would be Chan. His 4toe is about as easy as they come and his landings are lighter than Plushenkos so I feel he carries his momentum into the next jump better than anyone else.

    That being said, I would never work on it. Just do two separate quads if you want 2 quads in the program. It probably is not worth the few extra points to do them together and of course your chances of getting them verified are pretty slim. It might be worth it some day if the ISU ever comes to their senses and gives the 2nd jump in combinations a higher factoring.
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,508
    What are you talking about ? I was talking about last season for Vancouver.
    The video of 3A/4T by Plushenko dates back to 2009. Chan wasn't doing two quads in his LP at this time. In 2009, #1 and #2 at Worlds were quadless.
    And do you really believe that Plushenko will be back anytime soon with a 3A/4T, with the hope of beating Chan ? :slinkaway
     
  20. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    ^ does anyone have hope to beat Chan after these Worlds?
     
  21. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    6,237
    Yes, yes, and yes.

    Plushenko is coming back. This has been verified many, many, many times by the ISU, the RFS, and Plushenko himself. I am sick to death of repeating myself. When will people get it through their thick skulls that he was not banned for life?

    I'm sure if he is capable of doing it, he will try the 3A-4T in competition. And why not? He wants to win, he wants to be the best, and if it means raising the bar a few notches higher, so be it.

    The fact that that 3A-4T attempt is from 2009, when he was out of shape and in a fair amount of pain, only makes it much more impressive in my eyes.

    Plushenko is in great shape at the moment, training hard, and working on his new competition programs, to be debuted at a show this month (or next, translation wasn't 100% clear on the date). He's remastered his 4S, and apparently is just about there with his 4Lo and 4Lz. He's been working with new choreographers, including Zhulin and a ballet dancer, and has fixed some of the problems haters like to pick on, including the height of his sit spin.

    He's going to be 100% competitive this season, he's going to take the fight to Chan, and he's going to love every second of it.
     
  22. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    I don't think the question was if he was banned for life. I think the question is will he choose to come back still.

    Has he ever landed the 4S in competition?

    Meanwhile, Chan's going to seriously start practicing both the 4F and 4Lz. He says he'll wait until he has an 80% success rate with either before putting them in a program.
     
  23. millipied

    millipied New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2010
    Messages:
    569
  24. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    yes ratified one, Russia Cup series before the Olympics in Torino.
     
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,508
    I know he is not banned for life. I doubt he'll be back, that's it. But you seem so sure. With time, I get the feeling that you are Plushenko himself...

    Really ? Plushenko ? 2005 Cup of Russia ? I have just checked protocols, and no 4Sal :

    1 4T+3T 13.0 0.80 2 1 0 1 1 2 1 1 0 1 - - 13.80
    2 3Lz 6.0 1.40 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 2 - - 7.40
    3 3Lo 5.0 1.40 1 2 1 1 1 2 1 2 1 1 - - 6.40
    4 3A 7.5 1.60 2 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 2 - - 9.10
    5 3Lz+2T 7.3 -0.20 0 7.10 1 0 0 -1 0 0 0 -1 0 - - 7.10
    6 3A+COMBO 7.5 -2.00 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -1 -2 -2 -2 -1 - 5.50
    7 2T 1.3 0.00 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - - 1.30
    8 3F 6.1x -0.20 0 0 0 0 -1 0 0 0 -1 0 - - 5.90
    9 CCoSp1 2.0 0.40 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 -1 0 - - 2.40
    10 CiSt1 1.8 0.80 1 1 2 2 0 2 1 1 2 1 - - 2.60
    11 3S* 0.0 0.00 1 2 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 - - 0.00
    12 FCSp3 2.3 0.50 0 1 1 1 1 1 0 2 0 1 - - 2.80
    13 SlSt2 2.3 0.70 1 1 2 2 0 2 0 0 2 1 - - 3.00
    14 FSSp3 2.3 0.10 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 - - 2.40
    15 CCoSp1 2.0 0.80 1 2 1 1 0 2 0 2 2 1 - - 2.80
     
  26. senorita

    senorita New Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,945
    Yes but I said Russia Cup series, not Cup of Russia. :) September, Sarmanka I think, cant spell the city!
    You were sure Plushenko wouldnt be back for Vancouver also:pI think he came back to pick on you!
     
  27. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,510
    I didn't think they meant the official COR of 2005 but rather one of the Russian competitions also called Cup of Russia

    ETA - I knew it!

    Also Gachinski said his 3 loop issues came from practicing 4 loops.
     
  28. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,926
    Patrick recently said he's going to start practicing a 4f and/or 4lz, though he won't include it until it's 80%. He said that he was motivated by Dai's attempts at the 4f. With the height and ease of his jumps, I could see Patrick having one of the above in a competitive program within the next two years, especially if he keeps improving his content difficulty like he has been. It's insane to think that just one year ago he didn't have a quad. Now he lands 3 in competition, and it's probably his best jump.
     
  29. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    7,484
    This drives me nuts! IF Plushenko (and that is a very big IF) were have choreo like Chan's and IF he was to skate it like Chan, I see no reason why he wouldn't get the PCS marks. It is not as if he has ever been held down in the PCS department. That fact is that Plushenko didn't skate like that last year so he didn't earn the marks.

    Let's stop perpetuating a myth that poor Plushenko's marks are held down in any way, shape or form!