Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 25, 2011.
If you are talking about the number of falls per competition, then definitely Sasha > Leonova
Both Sasha & Sarah had serious technique flaws in 2002. Sasha later made many improvements & although her speed & edges were never the best in the world, she had many other assets, like her spins & spirals, & her jumps improved. Sarah did not improve over 2002, in fact she rapidly degressed. Tenth place was rather harsh for her Oly SP but IMO that was more accurate than most of the other marks. She should have been buried after the short.
Sarah was 4th after the short at the 2002 Oly, so I am not sure who you are referring to.
No, I am not judging the amount of pressure based on how much freedom the skater has in the performance- you seem to misinterpret a lot. The pressure evident from the start of the competition, before the actual skating even begins. Case in point- Midori Ito in 92. You did not have to wait until she got on the ice to know that she was under tremendous pressure. Michelle was such a huge favorite in 1998 that we knew there was a lot of pressure on her. Nobody said Tara had it 'easy'- you are putting words in my mouth. Tara had far less pressure than Michelle. We are talking of relative amount of pressure here. It's like Kristi having less pressure than Midori in 92, even though Kristi was the reigning world champ then, or Irina facing more pressure in 2006 than Shizuka, who was not expected to win the gold. Shiz did not skate with freedom, but she did have less pressure than Irina. We are talking of 'more vs. less' here, not 'pressure vs. no pressure'. I hope that's clear.
taf2002 and TheIronLady were referring to the Russian judge had Hughes in tenth place after the short. Another three gave her a fourth place ordinal, four others the fifth place ordinal, and one other had her in sixth place.
I never said Sarah's short program in SLC wasnt mediocre. In fact I have said that many times myself, and said she should have been lower than 4th which would have lost her the gold overall. However Sarah was by far a better long program skater than Cohen at the time and her LP was superior to what Cohen would have been capable of at the time in many ways. I am not even a Hughes fan but it is laughable to say Cohen had it all over Hughes by 2002, she was not that good yet.
Suguri was even a better skater than Cohen in 2002. The only time Cohen beat Suguri in the 00-01 or 01-02 seasons was at the 2002 Olympics which was only due to home ice advantage and the hype over the U.S women at this event probably. That plus Suguri skating very early in the short, thus being screwed over in the short program results, and not being in the final flight for the long program. Since her long program was superior to Cohen's and probably would have beaten her with both in the final flight.
BTW the Russian judge at this event was quite obviously corrupt.
I wonder about Makarova too. What happens with her also.
I'm anxiously awaiting the return of Anna Ovcherova after sitting out last season due to foot surgery. Anna turned 15 this past March 16 and should be Sr Worlds eligible for the 2011/12 season, right?
Without knowing the exact ordinals, the rest of the panel disagreed with this. Because she did win.
Hughes, whether you personally liked her skating or not, had the best performance of the night and that is why she won.
Sarah definitely won. Everyone lacked the same content and had failures. My argument is Cohen was already as good as Kwan, Hughes, & Slutskaya in '02. In fact, in the freeskate, two judges gave Cohen a better rank than Hughes (Russia & Denmark), even with Hughes skating her best and Cohen's flaws. So it's not that laughable. Cohen was on level technically with Hughes, Kwan, and Slutskaya, and I think she did have it all over Hughes.
I wonder if Leonova had another 3-3 if she would have snagged the bronze from Carolina.
What exactly are you smoking?
The Russian judge, the Danish judge, and I were not smoking anything.
When did the Russian and Danish judges ACTUALLY say that Sasha was as good as Kawn, Slutskaya and Hughes? 2 judges' marks at 1 event doesn't say that at all.
It is also clear that there is no way Cohen would have beaten a clean Slutskaya and Kwan in 2002. Cohen's clean skate (one of her few) at the 2003 Worlds QR also showed that when she was behind Sokolova and Kwan. It wasn't until the 2003-2004 season where Sasha started to become the skater to beat (luckily for her competitors like Arakawa at Worlds or Suguri at GPF that season, she was inconsistent enough to be beaten).
Only 1 judge had Cohen over Kwan, and over 1 over Slutskaya in SLC, despite that both had one of their worst performances ever in a major competition. Hughes is hard to judge since even on a good day she has alot of flaws, which explains the wild ordinal swings both for her mediocre and sluggish short program and excellent long program. However her sheer consistency made her pretty much a lock to beat Cohen at that point, which she pretty much always did in the 2000-2001 and 2001-2002 seasons. I think they met head to head 6 times those 2 seasons and Hughes won all but one. And Cohen skated about as close to clean as she ever does, falling on the back end of a triple-triple she has landed only about 2 times in her life, and a couple of other iffy landings. So for her it wasnt in anyway an off skate really. She just wasnt a good enough skater yet. U.S Nationals that year she skated maybe her cleanest long program ever and still lost soundly to Kwan, not even getting one first place ordinal if I recall. Had she skated that clean at Nationals in 2003, 2004, and 2005 she probably would have won (or maybe in the case of 03 and 04) but wasnt even close to it in 2002. She just wasnt close to her prime years level of skating in 2002 yet.
I agree with VIETgrlTerifa. Sasha in 2003 became a major contender for the first time although still not the clear favorite. 2004 is the first time she became the favorite or 2nd favorite regularly to win major events. Because of all her injuries she wasnt as far along in her development by 2002 as she should have been.
At 2002, my feeling for the top ladies was:
Kwan was the best overall skater, followed by Butryskaya and Suguri. Cohen probably had the weakest basics of all top ladies including even Sebestyen.
Slutskaya was the best jumper, followed by Kwan and Butyrskaya. Hughes was the worst technique-wise, followed by Cohen.
Hughes was the best spinner, followed by Slutskaya, Cohen and Suguri; Kwan was the weakest but still above average.
Hughes also had by far the most difficult technical choreography, followed by Kwan and Slutskaya. Cohen and Butyrskaya didnn't have much technical choreography.
Too bad not everyone had the cleanest skates. if everyone did skate to their fullest potential, I have no doubt the SLC podium would be exactly the same as the Vancouver Worlds podium, politiks considered.
Same here. In fact, I think SLC was much more Kwan's to lose than Vancouver 2001 was Slute's to lose.
It is always hard to say what Slutskaya really plans though. She had a reputation as this big triple-triple jumper but didnt do them that much, but at times did. If her hypothetical plan included a triple lutz-triple loop her program was probably overall harder than Hughes though with the two triple lutzes as well.
She seems to be someone who changes her plans based on how her competitors skate as well. If Kwan had skated cleanly and got alot of 5.9s she probably would have tried to throw everything she could (and probably missed something) like Vancouver. Skating right after Kwan didnt do that well she tried an easier program and still had trouble with even that.
The "one event" was the SP and FS of the Olympic Games! Are you suggesting they cheated? Hughes did skate almost perfectly in the FS....
Furthermore, the USFSA judges ruled Sasha was better than Hughes at '02 Nationals. What is everyone so confused about? Sasha was not struggling behind Hughes. Hughes and Kwan were more consistent, and Kwan and Slutskaya had bigger reputations (as did Hughes to a lesser extent). Reputation is only thing that changed in later years, in addition to the judging system.
Hughes was far from perfect in the SP. And Cohen was certainly a better skater with much better routines by 2006 than she was in 2002.
LOL so you dont think Cohen improved a ton after 2002. She would probably be insulted to realize one of her one fans thinks that.
And of course Hughes was over Cohen in 2002. Cohen had never beaten Hughes in an international competition to that point:
2000 Nations Cup- Hughes 2nd, Cohen 5th (Cohen had clean short and was 4th behind Butyrskaya who stumbled, Hughes, and Gusmeroli)
2000 Cup of Russia- Hughes 3rd, Cohen 4th (Cohen had 2 clean programs at this event, Hughes had mistakes in her long program)
2001 Skate America- Hughes 2nd, Cohen 6th
2001 Nations Cup- Hughes 2nd, Cohen 3rd (Cohen had clean short and was placed 3rd behind Butyrskaya and Volchkova and nearly lost to Hughes who stepped out of her combo)
2002 Olympics- Hughes 1st, Cohen 4th
Was Hughes above Cohen at that point mainly because she was much more consistent? Probably but that just means she was better at that point. If Cohen needs clean competitions to beat someone, she probably wont be beating that person more than occasionally. Clean competitions for her, even in her peak years to come, are as rare as Hayleys Comet after all. Cohen had to get to the point she could afford mistakes and still beat Hughes before she would start regularly beating her, and she wasnt there in 2002.
Hughes's Olympic SP wasnt good at all btw. It was one of the worst I saw her ever do (relatively clean that is), yet the judges still held her up to 4th which I doubt they would have done for Cohen at that point if she had done something similar. In general though Cohen was competitive with Hughes in the SP phase at that point in her career but definitely not the LP phase. She couldnt do a clean long to save her life (well that never really changed). Her long programs, especialy her Carmen in 2002, were mostly just stroking around the ice and not that well choreographed. And her power, speed, basic skating, and footwork at that point were all lacking.
She was above Cohen in terms of reputation... because Hughes had been to three worlds. The judges all knew her and some judges felt she had done her time.
It is worth noting that panels never put Hughes ahead of anyone good unless they sucked. In 01, Hughes got 4th in the FS behind a stiff kneed Masha, who-- let's face it -- was past expiration. It showed the judges did not see what Marco thinks were Hughes' superior "technical choreography" and spins. Cohen was certainly on level with Hughes technically and choreographically!
Maria skated a clean short at the 2001 Worlds and was placed below Hughes which gave Hughes the bronze. Maria could have and IMO should have been given the bronze over Hughes but wasnt. International judges liked Hughes quite a bit and often held her up questionably. They respected her consistency, early years improvement, and hard work.
Maria's LP at the 2001 Worlds was excellent btw and received 3 5.9s for artistry. I would have placed her 2nd in the LP over a sloppy Slutskaya as 2 judges did (2 judges also placed Irina over Michelle in the LP).
On another note Maria generally had an easy time beating Cohen around then too. The 2002 Olympics which was Maria's last full competition is the only time she ever lost to Sasha. Yet Cohen would proably have usually beaten Maria in their mutual primes, and Maria as you said was past her prime by the time she was facing Cohen, which just proves how extremely far Cohen was from her prime level even in the 01-02 season.
And if sucking means not skating clean programs than Cohen almost always sucked her entire career. If Hughes only real weapon against other top skaters was always skating cleanly, well then that was a huge asset in her pocket as nearly all the rest besides Kwan struggled mightily with that.
She was above Cohen in terms of reputation... because Hughes had been to three worlds. The judges all knew her and felt she had done her time. Is basically the whole point anyway. Hughes was a far more consistent and much more established skater than Cohen in 2002. In addition that Cohen was still very much in the developmental stage after missing so much time to injuries and lacking international exposure. So Hughes was far more a contender than Cohen for the SLC Olympics, and it would been a big surprise if Cohen had finished higher. Except for SLC Suguri even had an easy time beating Cohen at that point. That doesnt mean Hughes is the more talented skater overall and I am sure Cohen would have breezed past Hughes in the following years if Hughes had continued. Under COP especialy Hughes would have been dead. I dont think we are really disagreeing on much anyway.
Anyway, so getting back to Leonova, I feel that she is going to outlast Makarova.
Hughes should have been placed at 6th in SLC SP.
Judges held up Hughes for her consistency in landing the jumps. They were almost always underrotated, and under COP Hughes would probably never have medalled at worlds or Olympics.
Maria's LP at the 2001 worlds was magical- mature, elegant, emotional. I gave her a standing ovation, since I was in the arena. She never got the full recognition for her artistry. Hughes' 4th place in the SP in SLC pretty much took Maria out of medal contention. By that time she was not as good as she was in the past, but IMO she still was better than Hughes- Maria had a good outside edge on her lutz, rotated the jumps, had lovely lines and interpretation. 'Skating with joy' does not amount to artistry in my opinion (exception: Midori Ito, but even in her case I would not call it artistry).
Since the thread is about Leonova, I have to say I really enjoyed her witches program. Like Irina she will never have the lines, but she picked the right music and used its mood to the fullest. I hope to see her develop her own unique style in the years to come.
If she's a poor woman's Slutskaya, she must be destitute....
I agree. Ksenia is a bit generic and inconsistent in the FS baseline, which coupled with her weak content in the FS won't get her anywhere. If she can start doing 3f and 3lz, two of one of them, in her FS then maybe she will have a shot, but her current layout with one flip and no lutz is not going to cut it with all the talented youngsters with big tricks coming up.
IMHO , that's generous! 7th-8th is more like it.