Leonova too much like a poor womens Slutskaya

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 25, 2011.

  1. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    IMO Leonova was much more exciting to watch than Kostner at Moscow Worlds. It was probably the programs. Kostner's were much more subtle whereas Leonova's were very catchy.

    Kostner deservedly had higher PCS due to her fulfilling other PCS criteria.
  2. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Why is it "worth considering"? If everyone had the same opinion of Leonova's skating, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Incidentally, Aussie Willy is also a judge.
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Well my opinion is Leonova had to be really awful in terms of presentation and artistic merit to lose to Kostner! To me this doesn't even need spelled out.
    AndyWarhol and (deleted member) like this.
  4. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Alena was not gifted with her PCS. She was in the 7s and 8s for them and I think they are pretty justified. I probably would have her top in the PE/EX mark because that performance had so much energy and she really did everything she was meant to. She didn't draw you in, she threw it out in the audience. And I felt she had one of the most interpretive programs out there because it wasn't just getting out and skating, she was creating character and you were left in no doubt about her intentions. And I really appreciate a skater who has put that much work into that side of the program too because it definately wasn't ignored. The fact that we are talking about how exciting her performance was and that we enjoyed it I think actually validates that.
  5. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    This is Kostner's third world medal and she's definitely one of the top ladies. Finishing fourth behind her is not shabby and finish fourth overall is something for Leona to be proud off. Alyssa was fifth, and Alyssa is certainly not awful in terms of presentation and artistic merit.
  6. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Finally someone with some sense.
  7. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes, because judges are renowned for having good taste...
  8. mysticchic

    mysticchic Well-Known Member

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    Oh please don't feed the trolls! Or encourage them:shuffle:
  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    And you are qualified to be the expert on the question of taste because ....

    Taste is an individual thing. You can either like something or not. However sometimes you have go against you likes and dislikes and look at whether is something done well and the skater does what is being asked of them.

    Regardless of whether you like Leonova's program or not, the fact is she did have a really high performance level and she also used her music to create a theme and character. Taste actually doesn't come in it.

    Gee I really hate Mariah Carey who is not to my taste. But if a skater does a great program to her music, then I will give them credit for it.
  10. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    HAHA. I never said i was more qualified in matters of taste than yourself, i just found it amusing that someone used the fact that someone being a judge made them qualified to have a decent opinion about a program when the worst thing about skating is the judging. I prefer skaters with pretty/balletic positions and flow, not leaping around like mad circus freaks... each to their own though....

    I am a qualified stylist though. Her costume was hideous.
  11. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    :confused:
    Carolina Kostner is not mediocre in term of presentation and artistic. She is probably the best in the World actually, and her glide is among the best. Her jumps are amazing, even without the 3Lutz.
    For sure, Leonova is not my cup of tea, but comparing her to Carolina Kostner to say she is awful is weird. :slinkaway
  12. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I agree she is far better than Leonova, and I think this year's Debussy program is hands down her best ever, but...best in the world? One of the things that's always bugged me about Kostner is that she doesn't seem to have good rhythm...I was looking for a youtube video to illustrate and I found so many examples that I figured there was no point! I think that's why the Prelude a l'apres midi d'une faune worked for her. The slow, mushy hemiolas allowed her to reflect the musical character without having to rely on strong pulses. I've never been a fan, but that program was a beauty and she definitely deserved her bronze above Leonova, who has good energy, but still struggles to control her body movements IMO.
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Well skating is a judged sport and that is a fact. However it is not about having a decent opinion. It is about being able to justify how you come to your decisions and explain them which judges have to do all the time. But if you didn't have the judges you wouldn't have a sport to bitch about. So you should be thankful that they are there.
  14. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.... thanks man....
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I love Carolina's skating. Her lines, long legs, long arms, the curves into and out of the jumps, the way she uses her whole body as a creeper, it's unbelievable. Her edges and speed are to die for, so is her step sequence in her LP this season. I see what you mean about rhythm, but her SP this season is equally as beautiful as her LP, so, it's not just the slow music, she improved a lot this season.
    That's why, IMO, there's no comparison between Carolina and Alena.
    Alena is all the contrary : she is so dynamic. lol
  16. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Am I missing something? :lol:
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Can I learn how to use my whole body as a creeper?
  18. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    No need, your posts do that for you.
  19. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    True. Judges in Moscow would have given Czisny higher PCS if they had decent opinions.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, english is not my first language, but that's what I wanted to say.
    I don't know how to say it better, she moves from the feet to the hands. She undulates without any effort, that's unbelievable. ;)
  21. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    :hat1: das ist korrekt
  22. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    I have to agree. From the moment Lipinski began her career as a senior skater, all the way through through to her final amateur performance, her competitive nerve was unmatched. How she was able to acheive this over such a long period is indeed a marvel.
  23. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    And Miki Andozzzz much lower ones.
  24. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    She was only senior for 3 years...only a factor for two. Her medal tally in those two years was impressive though...but I wouldn't call two years a long period of time.:shuffle:

    I never paid attention to the pro-circuit back then. How did she fare there? Better yet, how long did she compete professionally?:confused: I know she had to have hip replacement surgery a few years after Nagano, but I can't remember if she continued to skate after that...

    Either way, I enjoy her commentary for IN and US...most of the time anyway...:D
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  25. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    And we should believe you are a qualified stylist because you come on the Internet and say you are? That makes you no more or no less qualified than anyone else to have an opinion on the subject.
  26. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    Sense of humour check, register three.

    :p
  27. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:
  28. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    You missed Warhol's point. The point is that someone's claim to work as a judge does not make him/her a superior observer. Throughout the years, judges have made bigger idiots of themselves than any other individuals in the sport (except perhaps certain federation officials). The point is share your views and let them stand on merit.

    :)
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2011
  29. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    No, I didn't miss Warhol's point. While there have been some very obvious examples of biased or political judging, the majority of judges are honest, very hard-working, and knowledgeable. And since most of them spend many more hours watching and evaluating skating than the average skating fan does, I think their opinions have a certain amount of informed credibility.
  30. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:

    You must spread more rep around...
  31. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    They're both perky but Alena's perkiness level is off the scale. She's just totally OTT.

    And she doesn't have Irina's basics.
  32. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

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    Who is that poster playing to be our nasty Ziggy? What has happend to him?:D

    I am not a Leonova fan, but I think she has different style than Slutskaya. The comparison is just silly.
  33. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    There is not a whole lot of evidence of this. It may depend what country you are from and which judges you have experience with, but the independence of judges is not well established. Their character and work ethic doesn't seem high at all as compared to coaches and athletes.

    Yes, I will give you this point. They are better equiped than anyone else to speak about the judging process and rules, and their eyes are trained by their experience. But again, their judgment has not proven to be exceptional. There are unsavory interpretations of the rules that many judges do not acknowledge for political reasons (to keep their jobs). In other words, their justifications for decisions are not always straightforward. The aggregate process of scoring itself is also a mystery to some of them.
  34. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    You have just highlighted how little you actually know about how the sport is run and your generalisations just make me :mad:. I would suggest get down to your local skating club and offer your services. Do some trial judging because then you might see how difficult it is.

    Most of us put in hours and hours into the sport, sitting in cold rinks and freezing our butts off whilst skaters get out there either competing or taking tests. Many judges are also involved in the administrative side of the sport so we probably spend twice as much time away from the rink doing stuff behind the scenes. Not to mention spending time to talk to skaters and parents. And it literally costs judges hundreds of dollars to be a volunteer in this sport with very little reward or financial recompense.

    And all the time we are sitting there judging we are trying to apply the rules and trying to make sure we are fair to the skaters by giving them the GOEs and marks they deserve, all within 2 minutes after each skater has competed.
  35. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Tara was young (14 & 15 years old) and not expected to win at the 1997 US nationals, 1997 Worlds and 1998 Olympics. She faced a lot less pressure than Michelle and Irina ever did in big competitions. She never got tested under that kind of pressure where she was the overwhelming favorite, the way Kwan was in 1998, and perhaps Slutskaya in 2006 (to a lesser extent, but definitely a favorite as the reigning world champion). Even when Tara was the reigning world champion, the pressure was on Kwan, not on Tara. We will never know how Tara would have responded to that kind of pressure, but in Irina's case I have to agree that she could not handle it in 2002 Oly and 2006 Oly. She had a very good change to win the gold each time.
  36. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think many expected Tara to win the 97 Worlds after beating Kwan at not only Nationals but the Grand Prix final. Kwan and Slutskaya were both in an obvious slump, and both lost to Tara at the Grand Prix final, even though Irina had beaten her 3 times earlier that season. Chen wasnt expected to even skate at Worlds. Of all the big events she was in, that was probably the one she had the most pressure.
  37. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    This is purely my opinion, but Tara stuck me as the type of competitor that was made of steel and would respond well to just about any type of pressure situation. She and Michelle had that in common IMO. Of course every skater will have ups and downs, but those two stood up on there jumps a lot more often than most skaters. Irina, OTOH, often got nervous in the big events, causing her to scale back her difficulty. She could have achieved more, but she had her share of victorious moments for sure.
  38. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

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    I thought my post about Tara was funny. But so many people taking me seriously is probably funnier! :lol: :p
  39. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone here knows to be on the look-out for your irony Peter G. There is a baseball analogy but I don't know the correct term - sometimes they are like a cleverly low-flung ball sent in an unexpected direction. :)
  40. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    In that sense, Tara was very lucky. Because she was so young and became the favorite underdog (if that makes sense) behind Michelle, she didn't have to face that amount of pressure--it was still on Michelle to win each time, but Tara was the one waiting in the wings. She was able to coast... Plus, when you're that young, stuff doesn't register...the enormity of winning a world or Olympic title is a bit lost on you because you're just so excited to be there in the first place.

    Tara was a flash in the pan skater: she showed up suddenly, won, and left just as quickly. Two years, in and done. What she accomplished was very impressive at such a young age (part of the reason she was able to accomplish it IMO) but when you talk about great skaters and competitors in terms of history, I doubt if Tara would rank among Dorothy, Peggy, Katarina, Kristi, Michelle, Irina, Yu-Na or Mao...she just wasn't around long enough to make any significant impression on the sport.

    I guess that's part of the reason why the age restrictions were put in place. I'd bet any money if Mao Asada was allowed to participate in the Torino Olympics she would have easily won gold, especially given the sub-standard level of skating that everyone turned in at that event. And she'd have easily won worlds too...She lacked the refinement she has now but she was the best jumper in the field during the 2005-2006 season, and given her two 3-3 combos and that youthful exuberance, she'd have stolen the show easily that night...

    PeterG is sarcastic...duly noted for future reference. ;)
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.