Lance Armstrong used performance enhancing drugs? Behold our shock!

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by Theatregirl1122, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Not impressive on the face of it. The French may have their in-house doping regime, and thus test their athletes to ensure their samples at competitions will pass. Considering that the Tour de France is a highly prestigious race, it's unsurprising that French cyclists train in France.
     
  2. bek

    bek Guest

    Not all French athletes train in France because then they aren't subject to the strigent rules. The French always hated Lance not just for his attitude but because they know cycling and they knew what he was doing was fishy.
     
  3. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    It makes sense for a French athlete to train outside of France if the facilities or coaching for that particular sport are sub-par at home. That's not a problem in cycling, and considering that the TdF is held in France, it would be très bizarre for the French team to train elsewhere.
     
  4. bek

    bek Guest

    No from what I read on the forum French athletes who don't train at home, weren't subject to the more strigent drug testing.
     
  5. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Understood. But since this topic is specific to cycling, and the cyclists are within arm's reach of their sport's officials, it's unsurprising that they endure more testing, especially when their particular sport has a problem with the drug issue.
     
  6. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    The Festina Affair involved quite a few high-profile French skaters; I believe the guys said that Christophe Bassons was the only one on the team who was clean. That was 15 years ago, true, but still - I don't believe cyclists of a certain nationality are/were cleaner than others; the testing is usually one step behind the people who want to beat it. I can believe, however, that some teams are cleaner than others.

    The history of cycling and the TdF is rife with substance use, well before Armstrong began his career. If cyclists quit the sport because of doping, I don't think that one can be blamed entirely on him, except in cases in which we know he was directly responsible for blackballing people. I agree that his dominance made things worse. Nonetheless, the problem was there before him; if we think of it, someone or someones got Armstrong involved in doping - I doubt he got up one morning and decided that it sounded like a fine idea, independent of the context of what was happening in the sport. But like other cyclists who doped extensively, it was still his choice to start down that road and continue on it, just as it was his choice to do the things that he did to cover it up.

    If I'm not mistaken, Frankie Andreu has stated that the doping at Motorola started in 1995. I believe him.

    Floyd Landis, OTOH, is about the least credible person I can think of.
     
  7. bek

    bek Guest

    Of course the doping didn't start with Armstrong bt I'm pointing out that its not fair to say everybody was doping so its okay. There were even if a tiny few clean players who got driven from the sport. I believe he did blackball Bassons.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2013
  8. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    You're right. The popular assumption that everyone was doping, therefore it's okay that Armstrong was also, is pretty disappointing. There's no way to know if "everyone" doped, and, even if they were, there's no way to know if everyone had equally effective doping regimes. It's not like these team doctors had public conventions at which they openly shared best practices.
     
  9. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't okay, but that isn't the point I was getting at, but rather the suggestion that his success is what made clean riders walk away from cycling. Armstrong wasn't the person who made cycling that way; he perpetuated and worsened a bad situation, but it was going on well before his time, so if the culture of doping was driving people out, it's not only on him. The debacle that was the 1998 TdF certainly shows that. Bassons was targeted by Armstrong, but by a lot of other people too - because almost everyone was threatened by his willingness to speak out, including his own teammates.

    Take a look at this interview with Bassons from a few months ago. He's a classy guy, and he paints a troubling picture of what was going on in the sport and why he decided to walk away. That was the problem; it wasn't limited to specific people. The problems in cycling were such that one rider probably couldn't have done much to improve matters. At best, they could make the right choice and refuse to be a part of it. But nobody had the power to make everyone race clean.

    His work has been primarily in the areas of awareness and support programs for cancer patients and their families, not research. I don't care why he did it - whether he is Mother Teresa reincarnate or a selfish jerk who was after positive press is immaterial. What matters is the results, and there are a lot of good things that Armstrong and Livestrong have accomplished.
     
  10. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Support programs are a good thing, but "awareness" tends to be a fuzzy objective. Awareness of what? That there's a disease called cancer, and a lot of people get it?
     
  11. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Awareness can be about things such as different types of cancer, specific risk factors, early detection screenings, genetic testing, reducing stigma and misconceptions about cancer. I agree it can be a fuzzy objective, but there's also a lot that can be done in this area that can help reduce cancer mortality. And I don't mean silly things like lighting buildings in pink to raise awareness for breast cancer (which was done at my old job a few months ago). That is beyond stupid and a complete waste of resources.

    But I bet a lot of people, even educated ones in countries with good health systems, don't always know what sort of testing they should get, and matters can be even worse in places were there is less access to affordable healthcare. So yes, raising awareness regarding specifics rather than generalities is a valuable thing.
     
  12. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Those are important issues. Does Livestrong do anything impressive on those fronts? I know they have a good website, www.livestrong.com, that has a lot of good content on a lot of health topics, but is that website part of the charitable arm or the for-profit one?
     
  13. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    There's Livestrong.org, which is the charity, and Livestrong.com, which AFAIK is a commercial site. I'm not familiar with the specifics of Livestrong's work; I have heard that among other things, they help patients and families navigate the healthcare system and make sure they get the insurance coverage they need, which can obviously be an issue in the US. Also that they help women with cancer-related fertility issues. FWIW, their Charity Navigator rating is high. But my comments about awareness were more general in nature, based on research projects that I was involved with in the past.
     
  14. Lil Sarah

    Lil Sarah Member

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    I wear (and currently am still wearing) my LiveStrong bracelet. My little cousin died of leukemia in August and I have worn it since he was diagnosed 4 years ago. I still wear it to honour him
     
  15. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how many pastors used Lance Armstrong as their illustrative example in their sermons last Sunday? Maybe 80%? Maybe the other 20% used Manti Te'o?
     
  16. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    I wonder when we'll find out that all who are condamning him (like Bradley Wiggins) will fall for doping too. 10 years is about right I'd say ;)
     
  17. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Anyone see 60 Minutes on Sunday? There was a brief mention at 14:44 that the CEO from the charitable side of Livestrong was involved in Congressional lobbying against USADA, and, if successful, possibly could have closed the agency.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50139841n
     
  18. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    I saw the 60 minutes piece: It certainly sounds like some were very helpful in giving Lance information about testing that should have been top secret. After the truth emerged I was trying to think one, single word to describe Lance; diabolical is my choice.
     
  19. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose Active Member

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    With such new practices as Genetic Doping on the scene, I can't help but wonder what the ultimate outcome of doping in sports will be. If the day arrives that an average unathletic person can take one yellow pill a day for a week and skate as well as Michelle Kwan, or a blue pill a day for a week and clean & jerk 600 pounds, or a pink pill a day for a week and bat home runs out of the ballpark right and left, then of what use will athletic competition be? None. It will all be pointless.

    BTW, I find it interesting how, when ex-doper former athletes testify before Congress, they always look like deflated souffles wearing suits much too big for them now.
     
  20. Lacey

    Lacey Well-Known Member

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    I hope they get him on everything possible, fry him in court, and put him in jail. For years. He is a liar.

    I hope they are able to get back every penny he ever won where they can prove he was doping. He is a cheat.

    I hope he has to pay fines until he loses everything. He stole from his teammates, his sponsors, his country. He is a thief.

    I hope he never gets to do sport again, for he is not a sportsman nor an athlete. He is a fraud.
     
    emason and (deleted member) like this.
  21. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    I'm not so sure he'll do time. Travis Tygert from USADA said that Armstrong was legally shrewd to admit to doping only with his Tour de France wins through 2005, because he's outside the five-year statute of limitations that way. It also bolsters Armstrong's claim that one could not win TdF without doping, since his purportedly drug-free attempts at the race in '09 and '10 did not result in wins.
     
  22. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons why skating is 'the real sport' (whatever that means).

    No amount of doping will make you land a quad. :)
     
  23. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Doping can certainly help people in some ways, such as strength and endurance. But even for those who take banned substances, they are a shortcut, not a complete substitute for hard work (probably the opposite, as some substances allow athletes to train longer and recover faster) and in sports like skating, there is a lot of specialized skill that no pill will teach you - as Ziggy pointed out. There's a reason why the only "doping" cases in skating were people who took the wrong cold medication, like Elena Berezhnaya.

    Actually I believe his teammates did very well for themselves, and his sponsors certainly weren't losing any money. Excuse me if I don't feel sorry for guys who only remembered that doping is bad after they'd made their money from it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Oh I believe that was just a crappy excuse. Berezehnaya wasn't very well back then and I can definitely see how they could have given her something to give her a bit of a boost.

    I am sure that there are skaters who do that. But that's the only thing doping will give you in skating. Faster recovery, more stamina, etc. It won't make you suddenly gain technical skill and be able to execute difficult jumps.
     
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    and yet Elena Berezhnaya (and later Larianov) was disqualified from competing at the 2000 worlds because she took a cold remedy medicine just before the Europeans and failed the drug test. How was a Sudafed (from reports, that's what she took) going to help her land jumps or throws? It's totally unfair that she was disqualified, while Armstrong could continue to win titles after titles after intentionally cheating/doping.

    ETA: I just saw the posts just above this, but I am not going delete what I wrote.
     
  26. MarieM

    MarieM Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover

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    I am sure there is suspicion of doping in skating, there were rumors flying around certain skaters at one point during the 98-2002 cycle, involving russians skaters and others.
    It's just doping won't help much in that sport IMO.
     
  27. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I disagree, because Armstrong wasn't caught cheating when he was racking up all those wins (well, at least not in any public way). So long as someone is suspected of doping rather than actually confirmed to have failed a test/doped, I don't think it's unfair that they can continue to compete.

    But I've always thought that the penalties were too harsh for athletes who fail tests because of medications that contain banned substances. I realize that the responsibility is on them and on team doctors to make sure they're following the rules, but there are so many banned substances, and so many medications - I can see how mistakes might be made. And there is indeed a world of difference between someone who intentionally and consistently doped, like Armstrong or any of the cyclists who only got six month bans, and someone who made a mistake due to negligence, such as Larionov.

    ETA: Just saw that Armstrong spoke with Cycling News.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  28. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Depends. Some of the hormonal development inhibitors like Lupron could be used to delay female development and slow height growth.
     
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Sudafed is made of pseudoephedrine. Pseudoephedrine is a stimulant (similar to amphetamine).

    I personally believe that Berezhnaya knowingly and deliberately took some kind of stimulant in order to get a little "pick me up".

    I mean there is no way an athlete at his level doesn't realise that pretty much all cold medications contain amphetamine derivatives, thus making them banned.
     
  30. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Well-Known Member

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    It's possible she took something for a pick me up. If that's the case though, I don't think any of them knew/realized it contained a banned substance. IIRC, they were pretty shellshocked when that happened and Moskvina gave an interview in which she blamed herself for not looking at the ingredients of Berezhnaya's medication more carefully.
    I've always been under the impression that doping is pretty uncommon in skating since smaller frames and body weights are preferred and smaller body wieght makes it easy to pick up any unusual substances.