Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by all_empty, Oct 27, 2012.
Thanks for explaining, antmanb! I don't know why I was under that impression.
It's not. Not at all. I think that there just needs to be a pioneer or two (or three) of some sort to get the 3f + 3T and 3Lz + 3T in action. If the top 3 skaters at worlds are all doing it, other ladies will have to.
It might depend on the skaters you watched or were shown on a broadcast....that and the eventual world champ did a Loop.
This - i don't think the 3Lz+2T is harder than the 3T+3T at all. These things, as you rightly point out, go in patterns of what the top skaters are landing. When Yuna was skating and including 3F+3T and 3Lz+3T in the short, you had several others attempting similar combinations, or Mao trying 3A in order to keep up. Yuna went, then some of the European skaters started going for 3T+3T in the SP to keep their base value up (3 triples will nearly always score higher than 2 triples and a double) and then many other skaters jumped on the bandwagon. If the Russian ladies start getting to the top their diffiuclt 3/3s will probably turn the tide back again.
Well, there's that.
Is there a particular reason why no one goes for 3L-3T? There are women who frequently do 3T-3T and two 3L's in their LP.
The 3L-3T is just a much tougher combination to pull off successfully. Skaters can successfully land solo 3Lutzes but then do they have enough speed on the landings and are their bodies in the correct position to pull off the 3T? The take-off of the lutz tends to make the skater pitch forward on the landings and they lose speed as a result of that. I'm sure in the stress-filled SP, the skaters just want to go with the combo that they know they have at least an 80% chance of hitting.
You people who think the 3T+3T is harder are delusional. I'd say 90% of skaters would agree, over the 3Lz+2T. Just because it is a 3+3 is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Let's ask Carolina Kostner, Julia Turkilla, Elena Glebova.. etc. They all nail their easy 3+3 but where's their consistent 3Lz?
I do these jumps everyday.... I'm thinking those who are disagreeing are not jumping these combos.
Well, you have to compare skaters that are consistent with both their 3lutzes and the 3toes. Kostner lost her 3Ltz so of course that's a very difficult jump for her. For skaters with consistent 3L, I'd think it would be "nothing" to tackle on a 2toe afterward. But for the 3t-3t, the second jump is still a triple! I wouldn't classify a 3t-3t as harder than a 3l-2t, but I wouldn't say it's so much easier either.
I meant 3loop-3toe. I don't think I've ever seen it. Korpi planned it when she was younger but settled for 3t-3t.
Not a short program, but here's a good attempt by a lady.
^I see where you're coming from orbitz. For skaters where the 3Lz is just as easy for them as any other triple, then it may not be true. But I can't think of too many where that's the case (most find the 3Lz way harder than 3T)... but Kwan comes to mind, she always landed everything and none seemed more difficult than another..... I would think her 3Lz+2T was easier.
It's COP logic. Like 3A and 3A+2T was just not enough points to go against 3lz+3T. Because of the difference of 3T and 2T. It is not about harder jump in combo with another. It is about what combo is worth the most and that is what is done! You have to do a 3 lz 3toe rather than a 3lz 2t because while you have shown you can do a harder jump in combo COP doesn't care! It cares that you did a 2T rather than 3T and therefore you are not getting the points of 3T 3T? It is not 6.0 combo logic it is COP combo logic.
That is the one change I would love to see. IMHO sequences should be the value of the jumps in the sequences, combinations should be the value of the jumps in the combination multiplied by 1.2. This would make combo with more difficult jumps worth much more than solo jumps and also more than easier combos. If the multiplier was used in conjunction with the actual value received for the jump (ie, including any positive or negative GOE) that would be great. Then 3 flutz combos would not receive the same real value bonus as 3 lutz combos.
3toe/3toe is harder than 3lutz/2toe.
There are plenty of skaters who can't do a 3toe/3toe, yet they can do 3lutz/2toe.
There are few skaters for whom it works the other way.
If you do 3toe/3toe (or any other triple/triple combination), you are performing a triple jump with no preparation, no set-up, reduced speed in (unless your landing is perfect), etc. That is really difficult to pull off and should get rewarded.
I can't think of a single female skater who does a 3toe/3toe and 3loops in her FS. And even if there were such skaters, this is a flawed logic. It doesn't work like that. Being able to do those jumps does not mean that those skaters are able to do a 3loop/3toe as well. It's a different combination.
I believe Haruka Imai did a triple loop-triple toe combo before.
What I think we're missing in this discussion about 3Toe-3 Toe vs 3 Lutz-2Toe is that the 3 Lutz by itself is very difficult. Theoretically any skater with a 3Toe should be able to do a 3Toe-3Toe with a decent amount of practice. But the thing about skating is that the 3 toe isn't where everyone stops. They go on to learn new and harder jumps that they don't necessarily have the time or put in the effort to learn the 3Toe-3Toe.
Debi Thomas had nice 3t3t, but I don't recall seeing her do a 3z - ever. Did she?
But otoh, Kwan's 3z2t was her bread and butter she RARELY missed this combo. I mean, I think I could count the times there were issues there on 1 hand. But she frequently watered down her 3t3t, so go figure.
With the limitation on jumping passes in COP and the requirement of an axel jump, the value of being able to tack a 3t on the back of 2a or higher has shot up quite a bit. This is quite a switch from the 90s, when a 3z - even if horribly flawed and/or puny - was a must have regardless of other good qualities.
I am surprised we don't see more 3t3t and 3z as the two non-axel jumping passes in the SP, though. That would give someone quite a nice little advantage over the old school SP of 3z2t and 3f. 1.5 points, if I'm not mistaken. I guess the difficultly of doing a 3z well outweighs the extra .7-.9 you get versus doing a flip or a loop.
I would really like the ISU to go back to requiring specific skills in the SP, like, say, a 2z...but that's another topic
No, nor 3F either. Having "all the triples" wasn't a priority at the time, so she added more difficulty through the 3T+3T, which was evidently easier for her. Both (3T+3T and 3Lz) were quite rare at the time.
True. And there were quite a few of her contemporaries or near-contemporaries who had good 3Lz+2T (or 3Lz+2Lo) but no triple-triple combination at all. E.g., Chouinard, Rechnio, Butyrskaya (although she did occasionally do 3T+1Lo+3S), Gusmeroli, Malinina, Lavrenchuk, Liashenko, Suguri, Volchkova, Nikodinov, Kwiatkowski . . .
Definitely in the 90s and early 2000s I'd say there were more skaters doing 3Lz combo than any triple-triple (of which the most common by far was 3T+3T).
And then you had skaters like Harding, Chen, Bobek, Szewczenko?, Cohen who maybe pulled off a 3-3 of some sort at least once in their career but much more often did lutz combinations (or flutz combinations, as the case may be).
So how much of that was because the 3-3 is more difficult and how much because of expectations about what judges would value more, or knowledge of what the Scale of Values values more, and skaters/coaches adapting their training accordingly? Probably some of each.
Haruka Imai did a (very nice) 3L-3T in her 2010 TEB SP, but it's been taken off YouTube since.
The interesting thing is there are a lot of skaters that don't have a 3lz but can do 3t-3t. Juulia Turkilla, Anna Shershak, and Amanda Dobbs are examples of such skaters. Then someone like Laura Lepisto could do a 3lz, but never tried the 3f, and her 3lz was inconsistent while her 3t-3t was a great and powerful combination for her. I also think Nina Jiang did 3t-3t before she started trying the 3lz in competition (she landed 3t-3t in her SP at the 2010 JGP Courcheval, the second toe was marked UR, but it was a good attempt and she didn't try a 3lz in the FS). I think the difference is that to do a 3t-3t, you need to have a really strong and consistent 3t so that you can rely on landing it well enough to have adequate speed and balance to pull off the 2nd triple. Whereas with a 3lz-2t, you just have to be able to do a decent 3lz, as tacking a 2t onto a jump with a somewhat shaky landing is doable, whereas going for a 3t would likely lead to the skater falling or under-rotating the jump.
So I think it comes down to some skaters having a really consistent 3t, so they can do 3t-3t, and that doesn't necessarily mean they can do a 3lz. But for someone who can do all the triples, but 3t is not one of their strongest, going for the 3lz-2t makes since because they will get more points doing that than doing a 3t-2t should the landing of the initial 3t not be stable enough to tack a second triple onto.
With the overwhelming amount of ladies doing 3T+3T now, yet not having consistent (or at all) 3F or 3Lz, it's evidently proving otherwise.
I suck at skating but still find the 3T+3T fairly easy, at least in comparison.
Kwan is a handy example.
Kiira Korpi has done 3T-3T and two 3Ls for years, so did Laura Lepistö. I know it doesn't work like that, that's why I was asking in the first place and you didn't provide me with an answer.
No, she could do a 3T+3T. Plus I mentioned her earlier in this thread as one of the few possible exceptions to the 3T+3T being easier.
Why would any lady do 3lz+2T when 3T+3T is worth more and debatably slightly easier. The only lady doing that atm is Valentina marchei
I think ziggy meant just because someone repeats the toe and loop doesn't mean they can do those triples together in combination.
And to answer your question: the loop/toe or even sal/toe is a rarer combo because the rythym of doing edge jumps and toe jumps can be quite different. And then there's the mentality that, when you first start training a 3/3, you should start with the easiest one - 3toe3toe; and then as you progress and get the timing right, you train one of the harder ones - 3fliptoe or 3lutz3toe. Kim is a prime example. A 3loop3toe isn't normally a combo that is easy enough to START with and isn't a combo that is hard enough to SETTLE with.
I don't understand why Joannie didn't go back to that combo.... she kept trying the 3F+3T which she couldn't consistently rotate... whereas her 3T+3T was solid!
She lands a lot more 3lutz2toes than 3toe3toes, even if just in free programs from 1996 onwards.
The difficulty in the 3toe3toe lies in the second jump (that is, in the combination of the jumps). The difficulty in the 3lutz2toe lies in the first jump.
That is, if you nail the 3lutz technique, you can pretty much land the 3lutz2toe. But just because you can nail the 3toe does not mean you can land a 3toe3toe.
And I think skaters train the 3/3 more instead of the lutz or flip because - it's worth more and you don't put all the risk on the first jump. For skaters who just can't get the harder triples, it's great that they are exploring other ways to boost their technical base.
Vanessa Gusmeroli, or Julia Sebestyen are examples of solid 3Lz/2T, but never attempted 3T/3T. (and Oksana Baiul, btw...)
Also Elena Liashenko, Susanna Pöykiö, Viktoria Volchkova, Sarah Meier... I think there were many of them in the late 90s/early 00s.