# Ladies SP jump elements -- changing standards?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by all_empty, Oct 27, 2012.

1. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
^I see where you're coming from orbitz. For skaters where the 3Lz is just as easy for them as any other triple, then it may not be true. But I can't think of too many where that's the case (most find the 3Lz way harder than 3T)... but Kwan comes to mind, she always landed everything and none seemed more difficult than another..... I would think her 3Lz+2T was easier.
2. ### caseyedwardsWell-Known Member

Joined:
Dec 23, 2009
Messages:
6,351
It's COP logic. Like 3A and 3A+2T was just not enough points to go against 3lz+3T. Because of the difference of 3T and 2T. It is not about harder jump in combo with another. It is about what combo is worth the most and that is what is done! You have to do a 3 lz 3toe rather than a 3lz 2t because while you have shown you can do a harder jump in combo COP doesn't care! It cares that you did a 2T rather than 3T and therefore you are not getting the points of 3T 3T? It is not 6.0 combo logic it is COP combo logic.
Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
3. ### magWell-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 18, 2006
Messages:
6,995
That is the one change I would love to see. IMHO sequences should be the value of the jumps in the sequences, combinations should be the value of the jumps in the combination multiplied by 1.2. This would make combo with more difficult jumps worth much more than solo jumps and also more than easier combos. If the multiplier was used in conjunction with the actual value received for the jump (ie, including any positive or negative GOE) that would be great. Then 3 flutz combos would not receive the same real value bonus as 3 lutz combos.
4. ### ZiggyWell-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 7, 2002
Messages:
20,569
3toe/3toe is harder than 3lutz/2toe.

There are plenty of skaters who can't do a 3toe/3toe, yet they can do 3lutz/2toe.

There are few skaters for whom it works the other way.

If you do 3toe/3toe (or any other triple/triple combination), you are performing a triple jump with no preparation, no set-up, reduced speed in (unless your landing is perfect), etc. That is really difficult to pull off and should get rewarded.

I can't think of a single female skater who does a 3toe/3toe and 3loops in her FS. And even if there were such skaters, this is a flawed logic. It doesn't work like that. Being able to do those jumps does not mean that those skaters are able to do a 3loop/3toe as well. It's a different combination.
Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
5. ### smarts1Well-Known Member

Joined:
Jul 4, 2009
Messages:
2,016
I believe Haruka Imai did a triple loop-triple toe combo before.

What I think we're missing in this discussion about 3Toe-3 Toe vs 3 Lutz-2Toe is that the 3 Lutz by itself is very difficult. Theoretically any skater with a 3Toe should be able to do a 3Toe-3Toe with a decent amount of practice. But the thing about skating is that the 3 toe isn't where everyone stops. They go on to learn new and harder jumps that they don't necessarily have the time or put in the effort to learn the 3Toe-3Toe.
6. ### CocoWell-Known Member

Joined:
Dec 14, 2002
Messages:
10,585
Debi Thomas had nice 3t3t, but I don't recall seeing her do a 3z - ever. Did she?

But otoh, Kwan's 3z2t was her bread and butter she RARELY missed this combo. I mean, I think I could count the times there were issues there on 1 hand. But she frequently watered down her 3t3t, so go figure.

With the limitation on jumping passes in COP and the requirement of an axel jump, the value of being able to tack a 3t on the back of 2a or higher has shot up quite a bit. This is quite a switch from the 90s, when a 3z - even if horribly flawed and/or puny - was a must have regardless of other good qualities.

I am surprised we don't see more 3t3t and 3z as the two non-axel jumping passes in the SP, though. That would give someone quite a nice little advantage over the old school SP of 3z2t and 3f. 1.5 points, if I'm not mistaken. I guess the difficultly of doing a 3z well outweighs the extra .7-.9 you get versus doing a flip or a loop.

I would really like the ISU to go back to requiring specific skills in the SP, like, say, a 2z...but that's another topic
7. ### gkellyWell-Known Member

Joined:
Sep 26, 2003
Messages:
10,505
No, nor 3F either. Having "all the triples" wasn't a priority at the time, so she added more difficulty through the 3T+3T, which was evidently easier for her. Both (3T+3T and 3Lz) were quite rare at the time.

True. And there were quite a few of her contemporaries or near-contemporaries who had good 3Lz+2T (or 3Lz+2Lo) but no triple-triple combination at all. E.g., Chouinard, Rechnio, Butyrskaya (although she did occasionally do 3T+1Lo+3S), Gusmeroli, Malinina, Lavrenchuk, Liashenko, Suguri, Volchkova, Nikodinov, Kwiatkowski . . .

Definitely in the 90s and early 2000s I'd say there were more skaters doing 3Lz combo than any triple-triple (of which the most common by far was 3T+3T).

And then you had skaters like Harding, Chen, Bobek, Szewczenko?, Cohen who maybe pulled off a 3-3 of some sort at least once in their career but much more often did lutz combinations (or flutz combinations, as the case may be).

So how much of that was because the 3-3 is more difficult and how much because of expectations about what judges would value more, or knowledge of what the Scale of Values values more, and skaters/coaches adapting their training accordingly? Probably some of each.

Joined:
Apr 18, 2010
Messages:
431
Haruka Imai did a (very nice) 3L-3T in her 2010 TEB SP, but it's been taken off YouTube since.

Joined:
Aug 10, 2004
Messages:
9,816
10. ### pinky166Well-Known Member

Joined:
Mar 17, 2010
Messages:
10,241
The interesting thing is there are a lot of skaters that don't have a 3lz but can do 3t-3t. Juulia Turkilla, Anna Shershak, and Amanda Dobbs are examples of such skaters. Then someone like Laura Lepisto could do a 3lz, but never tried the 3f, and her 3lz was inconsistent while her 3t-3t was a great and powerful combination for her. I also think Nina Jiang did 3t-3t before she started trying the 3lz in competition (she landed 3t-3t in her SP at the 2010 JGP Courcheval, the second toe was marked UR, but it was a good attempt and she didn't try a 3lz in the FS). I think the difference is that to do a 3t-3t, you need to have a really strong and consistent 3t so that you can rely on landing it well enough to have adequate speed and balance to pull off the 2nd triple. Whereas with a 3lz-2t, you just have to be able to do a decent 3lz, as tacking a 2t onto a jump with a somewhat shaky landing is doable, whereas going for a 3t would likely lead to the skater falling or under-rotating the jump.

So I think it comes down to some skaters having a really consistent 3t, so they can do 3t-3t, and that doesn't necessarily mean they can do a 3lz. But for someone who can do all the triples, but 3t is not one of their strongest, going for the 3lz-2t makes since because they will get more points doing that than doing a 3t-2t should the landing of the initial 3t not be stable enough to tack a second triple onto.
11. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
Like... who?
With the overwhelming amount of ladies doing 3T+3T now, yet not having consistent (or at all) 3F or 3Lz, it's evidently proving otherwise.
I suck at skating but still find the 3T+3T fairly easy, at least in comparison.
12. ### MarcoMissing Ziggy

Joined:
May 9, 2002
Messages:
11,241
Kwan is a handy example.
13. ### kukkuraMember

Joined:
Oct 23, 2007
Messages:
109
Kiira Korpi has done 3T-3T and two 3Ls for years, so did Laura LepistÃ¶. I know it doesn't work like that, that's why I was asking in the first place and you didn't provide me with an answer.
14. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
No, she could do a 3T+3T. Plus I mentioned her earlier in this thread as one of the few possible exceptions to the 3T+3T being easier.
15. ### sk8ingcoachActive Member

Joined:
May 23, 2012
Messages:
458
Why would any lady do 3lz+2T when 3T+3T is worth more and debatably slightly easier. The only lady doing that atm is Valentina marchei
16. ### MarcoMissing Ziggy

Joined:
May 9, 2002
Messages:
11,241
I think ziggy meant just because someone repeats the toe and loop doesn't mean they can do those triples together in combination.

And to answer your question: the loop/toe or even sal/toe is a rarer combo because the rythym of doing edge jumps and toe jumps can be quite different. And then there's the mentality that, when you first start training a 3/3, you should start with the easiest one - 3toe3toe; and then as you progress and get the timing right, you train one of the harder ones - 3fliptoe or 3lutz3toe. Kim is a prime example. A 3loop3toe isn't normally a combo that is easy enough to START with and isn't a combo that is hard enough to SETTLE with.
17. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
I don't understand why Joannie didn't go back to that combo.... she kept trying the 3F+3T which she couldn't consistently rotate... whereas her 3T+3T was solid!
18. ### MarcoMissing Ziggy

Joined:
May 9, 2002
Messages:
11,241
She lands a lot more 3lutz2toes than 3toe3toes, even if just in free programs from 1996 onwards.

The difficulty in the 3toe3toe lies in the second jump (that is, in the combination of the jumps). The difficulty in the 3lutz2toe lies in the first jump.

That is, if you nail the 3lutz technique, you can pretty much land the 3lutz2toe. But just because you can nail the 3toe does not mean you can land a 3toe3toe.

And I think skaters train the 3/3 more instead of the lutz or flip because - it's worth more and you don't put all the risk on the first jump. For skaters who just can't get the harder triples, it's great that they are exploring other ways to boost their technical base.
19. ### briancoogaertWell-Known Member

Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
Messages:
12,385
Vanessa Gusmeroli, or Julia Sebestyen are examples of solid 3Lz/2T, but never attempted 3T/3T. (and Oksana Baiul, btw...)
20. ### kukkuraMember

Joined:
Oct 23, 2007
Messages:
109
Also Elena Liashenko, Susanna PÃ¶ykiÃ¶, Viktoria Volchkova, Sarah Meier... I think there were many of them in the late 90s/early 00s.
21. ### ZiggyWell-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 7, 2002
Messages:
20,569
What we are missing in this discussion is that skaters don't perform jumps with no preparation for all the obvious reasons. They first do some progressives and/or crossovers to build enough speed. Then the slowly do the two three-turns in and then plant the jump. Most skaters telegraph their jumps to a smaller or larger extent.

If you do a 3toe/3toe combination, everything that I've written above goes away. You have to perform a 3toe right off the landing of a triple toe. Unless your first 3toe was perfect you won't have ideal balance or landing speed, you'll be fatigued because of just having landed a jump and even if that landing was perfect you have to perform a triple jump with no preparation.

Also, you can tack a 2toe at the end of the 3lutz even if it wasn't landed well. You cannot tack a 3toe at the end of a 3toe if it wasn't landed well. Unless you're Stefan Lindemann.

The overwhelming amount of ladies aren't doing 3toe/3toe now.

If you look at the jump progression of skaters as they go from junior to senior, in the vast majority of cases they first perform 3lutz/2toe before being able to perform any 3/3 combos. Hanyu had a consistent 3axel before he was able to land any 3/3 combos.

The answer: The gain not worth the effort put in. Working on 3lutz/3toe or 3flip/3toe makes much more sense because in an ideal world you want to do both 3flip and 3lutz in your SP.
Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
22. ### johndockley92New Member

Joined:
Sep 12, 2011
Messages:
474
It's incredibly more difficult to do a 3T + 3T combo than a 3lz + 2t because of the skill required to do a triple on the end of a combination, even a 2T + 3T is more difficult than a 3lz + 2T.

I think in a few years the lutz toe or flip toe combo will be more common in the ladies SP
23. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
When did you last jump this combination? I did yesterday, and certainly didn't experience ANY of what you're saying?! Even in my current horrible condition.. I'm not "fatigued" after doing a simple 3T. Doing the jump with no preparation makes NO difference once it's consistent either.
It sounds like you don't even skate and are just making this up out of nowhere.
24. ### ioanaWell-Known Member

Joined:
Feb 17, 2002
Messages:
5,040
As an alternate explanation, based on what I see at my lower-level freestyle sessions, boys tend to have an easier time pulling off jumps like 2toes even when the take-off is less than ideal. Girls, OTOH, tend to pop or open up jumps when they're off in the air. It could be as simple as men have an easier time muscling up a 3toe and women don't. I definitely see more guys tacking on 3toes out of iffy landings than girls.
25. ### magWell-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 18, 2006
Messages:
6,995
I think there are some people who have an easier time with combinations in general. Dd has a friend who is a much better solo jumper than dd, but she has a terrible time even putting a 2 toe on the end of a solo jump. Dd can put a 2 toe on anything - even the worst, messiest double. Perhaps the same applies to triples (I'll let you know in a few years when she gets there ) Some skater have the right technique or the right combinations of muscles, or the right timing, or whatever, and putting a 3 toe as a second jump works for them. (I won't call it easy because really none of it is easy!) for others, getting a harder solo triple works better. I just like that there are options that allow skaters to show off their strengths.
26. ### briancoogaertWell-Known Member

Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
Messages:
12,385
You are right. That was the case in France between Philippe Candeloro and Eric Millot. Philippe hated combinations, and Eric loved it (3Lz/3T, 3F/3Loop ...)
27. ### screechWell-Known Member

Joined:
Nov 27, 2004
Messages:
3,865
Who can't do a 3t/3t? Aside from Rochette and Osmond, pretty much every Canadian lady... Though Amelie Lacoste had a pretty decent 3loop/loop attempt about 2 years ago...

As a former figure skater, I can say that it is harder to do a jump after another one. At least for me it was. That's not to say I couldn't land the second jumps, but without the speed and proper curve of the edge when exiting the first jump, it can be difficult to get the height necessary for the second jump to be 100% successful. Note that I cay "can".

It's kind of weird actually. When I first learned a double toe or loop, then a triple toe or loop, the easiest way for me to get the feel for it was to first try it in a combination with less speed. It would be under rotated, but I could get a feel for it. Only then could I be successful doing it as a solo jump, with more speed. And then once it was good as a solo jump, I would then start doing it as a combination. I got my triple loop consistent by doing triple loop/triple loop combos - I wasn't focusing so much on the first one because I was focusing on the second one, and it made the first one come more easily. Loops for me were easier than toes, though, as the 2nd jump of a combo, because not as much speed was required, as long as I could get the right timing and knee bend.
28. ### sk8ingcoachActive Member

Joined:
May 23, 2012
Messages:
458
For me as a current skater, I can do consistant 3T+3T but I can't even get close to a triple lutz

I have a good toe so even when my first toe is shaky I can still pull off the second one most of the time.
29. ### antmanbWell-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 25, 2006
Messages:
3,260
Why would you think that your experience and only yours is valid or representative of every skater in the world who can land both a dtriple toe and a triple lutz?
30. ### Triple ButzWell-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 28, 2003
Messages:
2,779
Originally Posted by Spazactaz
31. ### Triple ButzWell-Known Member

Joined:
Jan 28, 2003
Messages:
2,779
I don't mean to speak for someone else, but I think the point is that we have one opinion from someone with actual experience and another from someone who has never done a triple jump. When you're sick do you go to see your doctor, or visit your neighbor who has seen a lot of episodes of Grey's Anatomy?
32. ### antmanbWell-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 25, 2006
Messages:
3,260
Because, of course, we never go to see specialists, or get second opinions from doctors or find doctors that disagree with diagnoses or remedies

One person's personal experience does not equal the only thing there is to know about a subject. With all due respect to Spazactaz I would say Kristi Yamaguchi, for example, is a more accomplished skater than Spazactaz, and when asked the question for her which is the hardest triple (excluding the axel), she would surely answer the triple salchow....now does that mean that it really is the hardest triple of all? Kristi could land the 3Lz+3T, but i doubt she ever landed the 3s+3T....so which combination is really the harder one?

And just because someone has never landed a triple jump, it doesn't mean they don't know what they are talking about technically. Would you question Mishin's ability to teach a skater to land quads despite having never even come close to landing one himself?
33. ### gkellyWell-Known Member

Joined:
Sep 26, 2003
Messages:
10,505
As a skater who only does single jumps, I would defer to a skater who does triples as having a better sense of what's harder or easier at that level. The triple jumper's personal experience is more valid than my personal experience when it comes to triple jumps.

But any one skater's experience of what is most difficult for him or her is just one valid data point, which by itself may be typical or may be atypical.

That skater may also have observed many other skaters working on similar skills and be able to put his/her own experience in context. Or not -- it depends how observant and analytical that skater is about what's going on elsewhere on the ice, but most likely they have had the opportunity to observe and discuss with other skaters at that level.

Long-time coaches who have taught or attempted to teach many skaters to do the skills in question (and observed other skaters working on them with other coaches) are probably in the best position to know what's typically easier or harder for skaters to learn, or to maintain once learned.

Anyone else who has a broad experience of observing skaters trying to learn these skills or to execute them in competition could also have a good basis for a summarizing opinion not privileging one person's experience. But if they haven't worked on the technical process of learning the skills their conclusions might be limited. E.g., as fans we can synthesize what we've seen from all the skaters we've seen in competition, what they choose to do more often and how successful they are. But we can't always know whether they're choosing to compete with easier skills because they're more consistent or with harder skills because they're worth more. The specific scoring rules might have an effect on that choice.

And if we're looking only at the pool of international-level competitors and not also at all the skaters who are doing their best to get to that level but most of whom won't succeed, we may be skewing or sample inappropriately.

Skaters for whom the higher scoring elements come easier are lucky enough to have an advantage. They are probably exceptions. If not, if the higher valued element is actually easier for most skaters, then the values should probably be readjusted.
RunnersHigh and (deleted member) like this.
34. ### SpazactazNew Member

Joined:
Nov 7, 2004
Messages:
1,812
...srsly now. Obviously I'm not saying every skater in the world is like this... there are always exceptions. But in general, the 3Lz is more difficult. Why else would it get more points than the rest of the triples?? 3S is the easiest one for me... (like 3T and 3S are for most skaters)... but just because it's hardest for Kristi, does that mean it should get more points than a 3Lz?? Definitely not.
35. ### bardtoobWell-Known Member

Joined:
Feb 25, 2005
Messages:
7,886
I think it is funny that people are using Yamaguchi as an example of somebody that could easily perform a 3Lz, given current standards and the thread topic
Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
36. ### briancoogaertWell-Known Member

Joined:
Nov 10, 2003
Messages:
12,385
What do you mean ?
37. ### antmanbWell-Known Member

Joined:
Oct 25, 2006
Messages:
3,260
That's was exactly the point I was making! I don't think the 3S is easier than the 3Lz I was using an example of one skater's preferences not necessarily being "the rule" when it comes to jumps. Just because you personally find the 3T+3T easier than the 3Lz+2T doesn't mean that it obvjectively is and I thought this had turned into a pretty good debate about the relative difficulty of the two combinations.

The reason I said what I did was because you asked Ziggy
So I guess if the you have to have landed these jumps in order to discuss them...we should all leave the thread.