Ladies SP jump elements -- changing standards?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by all_empty, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    For most of the last decade, ladies had to perform a 3Lz+2T, 3F out of steps, and 2A in the short to be considered competitive.

    We've now gone through two Grand Prix events where a skater has yet to do these elements (barring Gracie Gold, who did a 3F combo and 3Lz out of steps).

    Nowadays, it seems the 3T+3T has become the combination of choice. It's arguably easier than a 3Lz+2T, and earns slightly fewer points (8.2 base points versus 8.3). Solo 3F and solo 3Lo have pretty much become normalized in terms of value (5.3 and 5.1 base points, respectively).

    Have Lutzes and flips gone the way of the dinosaur? The last two World champs omitted at least one of the jumps from their program, and you'd be hard pressed to a senior lady with both a true Lutz and flip.

    There's little incentive for skaters to fix their edge calls or even try the jumps because the Lutz combo and flip are no longer the benchmark elements.

    I like seeing jump variety, but I think it's a shame skaters aren't pushing themselves.
     
  2. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    I think with the heightened expectations towards female technical advances, skaters are going for 3t-3t, which is clearly much easier than 3flip-3toe or 3lutz-3toe, rather than 3-2 of any kind. It'd give out the impression that they're not losing the touch but unfortunately that's all.

    I can't agree more with what you said about how it is so rare to see a lady try a program with both true lutz and flip. (Also Yuna is one of very few who includes both of the jumps in her SP repertoire; for three seasons with 3f-3t, 3lutz and for two seasons with 3lutz-3toe, 3flip.)
    Things almost seem like 3loop is a required element for senior ladies short program lately. Such a mehhhh.
     
  3. umronnie

    umronnie Well-Known Member

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    Ummm... 3T+3T is worth 8.2, but 3Lz+2T is only 7.3, so if you can do 3T+3T the choice is obvious.
     
  4. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    ladies are jumping to the 3T-3T bandwagon so much :(
    even Yuna's influenced 3Lz-3T has been shadowed though its more difficult
     
  5. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Ronnie is right, I can't do math. I am such an idiot.

    However my point is the same re: no incentive to fix edge calls.
     
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    and no incentive to go for harder jumps
     
  7. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    The thing that annoys me more than that is ladies FS that have two double axels. I hate that almost none of the ladies these days are going for 7 triple freeskates like they used to and instead of going for 6 triple ones with maybe one triple-triple combo or a double axel-triple toe combo. I also don't like that almost no one goes for 2 lutzes and 2 flips in the free skate now since most of the ladies want to play it safe and/or have edge problems on one of the jumps.
     
  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I love the 3toe3toe combo for the short and prefer it to the 3lutz2toe which had been THE combination for 20 years. Time to move on.

    What I hate most about short program combination jumps is that some skaters do a harder combo in the short and revert to an easier one in the free. Suzuki / Zawadzki / Kostner: 3toe3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Wagner: 3flip3toe in the short, 2axel3toe in the free. Zhang: 3loop3loop in the short, only 3/2s in the free. I blame this on the lack of bonus merit for combination jumps.

    And I find it fascinating that Gold does a 3flip3toe in the short but a 3lutz3toe in the free. I can't find a reasonable explanation as to why she would want to split her focus like that. I can understand not repeating spins across the short and long programs , but jumps? Why?

    With only 7 jumping passes and an axel requirement, if you can't do a 3/3, the easiest bet for a 7 triple free skate is do what Wagner / Suzuki does - do 6 triples, and tag the 3toe after the 2axel. Wagner is attempting 7 triples and 2 2axels this season, but with the loop and axel in sequence and hence only 80% credit for both. Looks like Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya and Gold are planning 7 triples and 2 2axels, with Gold's layout being the most ambitious because it involves repeating lutz and flip.

    Another way is do what Murakami does this season - do 7 solo triples and tag a 2axel at the end of one triple. Not only do you only get 80% value for the sequence, there is a risk that if you miss the first triple, you miss the axel attempt which nullifies the whole final pass.
     
  9. naan

    naan New Member

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    I agree with you. I think base points of 3F and 3Lz should be higher. Skaters who can do difficult combinations like 3Lz+3T(3Lo), 3F+3T(Lo) or 5 triples in their FS should be more rewarded than now.
     
  10. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I believe the logic is that she's going to get - GOE on the 3F, so they are hoping to minimize that by combining it with a 3t, and maximize GOE on the solo triple by making it a lutz with special features.
     
  11. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    It's the same reason why almost all the men were doing 3 flip-3 toe from 2005-2010...the scale of that combination vs. a 4 toe/salchow-(some 2nd jump) wasn't worth the risk.

    The only way the judges could, erm, "manipulate" the scoring for rewarding harder combinations would be to either a) "inflate" Components Scores to reflect a more difficult set of technical set of elements attempted/completed, or b) "inflate" GOEs for the harder combination, regardless of how poorly it was actually executed.
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Then she really should have stuck with 3flip3toe in the long as well. Why waste time practicing a different, difficult trick?

    It's the same fascination I had last year when S&S attempted throw 3axel in the short but throw 3flip and 3sal in the long.
     
  13. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Gracie is better off doing 3lz-3t because her 3f is consistently getting edge calls now while her 3lz-3t, when she hits it well, has the quality to garner big GOEs like +2s. Yuna switched her combo for the same reason I think. I would maybe even like to see Gracie try 3lo as her solo triple in the SP so she can gain consistency with that jump, if she can just land it it will likely gain more points than her 3f with an edge call. If she still wants to go for the Rippon lutz she could do 3lz-3t in her FS and then do the 2nd 3lutz Rippon style. In the FS though I don't think she should ditch the 3f-1/2lo-3s combo though because even with an edge call that combo is worth huge points.
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Then she really should have stuck with 3lutz3toe in the long as well. Why waste time practicing a different, difficult trick? :p
     
  15. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ Kimmie used to practice both tricks. I think it's fine. Since Gracie seems to be a natural jumper, I don't think it's much effort or makes much of a difference for her to practice both combos.
     
  16. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm fine with ladies doing 2 double axels if they are attempting 7 triple jumps (because they have to since doing another triple would violate the Zayak rule and the rule that you can't do more than 7 triples). The thing I'm saying is that skaters are going for 2 axel-3 triple toes or 3-3s and still only do 6 triples in their programs because they repeat the double axel again (because they want to go clean and also because they have a problematic jump). For one example, Yuna... She's rarely gone for 7 triple programs. It's also be a couple seasons since Mirai has attempted a 7 triples FS. And now the 2 axel-triple toe has become the "it" jump combo, when it was rarely seen between 2006-2009.
     
  17. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

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    The Zayak rule actually says you can't repeat more than two triples and if triples are repeated they must be in a combination or sequence. If a skater attempts a triple axel it is possible to have 8 triples in a LP.
     
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    I doubt any skaters only practice what are in their programs. She probably adds the 3toe to everything in practice... it wouldn't make any difference when all the jumps are as solid as hers anyway. It can only be a GOOD thing... if she misses is at first, add the 3toe to the second one.
     
  19. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't Gracie have a 3lutz-3toe and a 3flip-1/2loop-3sal in the long? It's likely that she can't comfortably do the salchow off the lutz and she doesn't want to do a 3-3 on the second flip because it's too late in the program. And the edge explanation fits for why it's a 3flip-3toe in the short.
     
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Jeremy Abbott did the same few years ago. I've never understood as well.
     
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    And why not a 3Lutz/3T with a solo 3Loop in the SP ?
     
  22. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    With the men it's even worse since they have the extra jumping pass and nearly all are capable of doing 3/3s they have to purposefully only do one combination ending in 3T otherwise they have to repeat the easiest triple where most want to repeat two of the harder triples. There's not a whole lot of point in going for 4T+3T or 3A+3T in the LP when you can only do the 3T once in the programme to repeat a harder triple so you may as well do easier 2Ts after the harder elements and put the 3T after an easier triple.
     
  23. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh New Member

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    Still, almost all of the men at the top do try either a 4T-3T or a 3A-3T (if you check the last Worlds' Men LP top 5, Chan had a 4T-3T, while Takahashi and Hanyu had a 3A-3T, as well as Joubert - only Amodio didn't perform either combination). That being said, I remember a time when everyone in the top 15, if not in the top 20, would try a 3A-3T - I must say I kinda miss that :(
     
  24. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I prefer the 3t-3t and 3F/Z over the old standard (3Z-2t and 3F). Most of the ladies were lipping or flutzing anyway, so really the lutz/lip/flutz/flip was the only triple we were seeing in ladies' SPs for years. At least with the 3t-3t we are seeing a greater variety of skills.
    What I'd like even more is for the back end triple of a harder combination to be worth more (ie the 3toe at the end of 3z-3t is worth more than same jump at the end of 3t-3t). Skaters like Gold , Tukt and Kim have mastered a truly difficult and risky combo, and don't get rewarded enough for them (especially in the LP , relative to 2a-3t).

    Someone mentioned Yuna starting the 2a-3t trend. I'm not a big fan of that combo getting massive scores either, but I don't blame Yuna. She's not permitted to do a 3z-3t and 3t-3t, two combos that are well within her ability. So she did 2a-3t instead of the 3t-3t. Yeah, she could have done 3z-3t and 3f-3t, but where's the reward for that?

    For Gold the 3z-3t is a super jump, but she faces a dilemma which solo jump for the SP. The 3F is getting edge calls, the 3L is her least consistent jump. Hopefully she can fix the edge on the 3F and this won't be an issue.
     
  25. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    3loop is Gracie's least consistent jump.
     
  26. Spazactaz

    Spazactaz New Member

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    Think of how different the SP results would be if they were still doing the 3Lz and 3F! haha.
    I think 3T+3T is sooooooooooooooo significantly easier than a 3Lz+2T.... so lots of these skaters who can't do the lutz or flip are doing well in the SP now.
     
  27. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    I really like this idea.

    Well, I guess that's why she did three 2A's back when she could.

    LP's with 2 Triple Lutzes and 2 Triple Flips for women were pretty rare even back in the day. I can't think of any ladies who were known for doing that, except for AP McDonough. Anyone else?

    I can't blame them. The LP is much more taxing than the SP is.

    I wonder if it's for training/practice purposes...
     
  28. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    But the thing is that most of the ladies who are attempting 3t 3t in their sp goes for triple loop, not lutz or flip, as solo triple.
     
  29. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Liashenko started attempting 2 lutzes and 2 flips in 2004, but at the same time also gave up her loop attempt. So this isn't a pre-COP example, but she is probably the first top tier lady to do so. Suguri and Kwan promptly followed suit in 2005.
     
  30. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that's quite right. If you look at the protocol for worlds you had 10 ladies attempt 3T+3T in the SP, of those 5 went for lutz or flip (Leonova, Murakami, Suzuki, Zhang and Glebova), 4 went for Loop (Kostner, Makarova, Helgesson and Silete) and Turkilla went for 3S. So it's about even with ladies going for 3T/3T and the two harder triples compared to trying to the two easier triples. And that is out of the entire field.

    Interestingly the only skater to land a 3Lz+3T went for a solo 3S and that was Gedevanishvilli. And several of the other skaters that did just 3/2s that started with flip or lutz, did not attempt the other harder triple as a solo jump. That clearly is because the skaters want to avoid the wrong edge take off penalty, something the skaters of yesteryear (including the likes of Ito) would have been dinged for had those rules been in place.