Ladies of the late 60s / early 70s

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by olympic, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. Maximillian

    Maximillian You can't unfry things.

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    Seyfert was a lovely skater, should have won the FS in Grenoble over Fleming. I would argue she had it all over Fleming who I think is THE most over-rated skater in history.
     
  2. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    My understanding was that Peggy was amazing in the Figures. She also won 1st place votes from all 9 judges overall after the Free Skate, so it wasn't like it was a close competition
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Back then the free skating was like a victory gap. I agree Fleming was vastly overrated as a free skater but Seyfert couldnt have beaten her even if she had easily won the free skating. Looking at points Fleming seems even more dominant than Schuba was in figures, and her free skating is obviously alot better than Schuba.
     
  4. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Peggy was graceful and had the whole complement of jumps [2x on down - which was everything in the 60s] unlike Schuba. She also did a 2l-2l combo which was good stuff back then
     
  5. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I still prefer Seyfert to Fleming as a free skater though. I understand though with figures there is no way Seyfert could have beaten her.
     
  7. Maximillian

    Maximillian You can't unfry things.

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    I should clarify what I meant, which is that I think that as a freeskater Fleming was overrated. I recall seeing Seyfert's FS from Grenoble and it wasn't great, but it was better than Fleming's. Of course as was stated above, the FS was just a victory lap for Peg, but I argue on principle that regardless of final placing Seyfert should've finished first in that portion of the competition. If memory serves correct, Gaby's '69 FS was the real masterpiece (used to be online). She's truly an underrated great, in my mind, much the superior of her much lauded successors Poetzch (well no one thinks her fs was great) and Witt.
     
  8. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    Actually, one judge placed Seyfert first in the FS. But another one placed her sixth!

    http://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/winter/1968/FSK/womens-singles-free-skating.html

    I watched Seyfert's Grenoble FS and some of her other programs a few months ago when they were on Youtube. I liked her a lot, but to say she was a better free skater than Fleming would be a stretch.

    On a different, related note, why is Seyfert's "triple loop" at 1968 Worlds credited as the first triple loop by a woman, when Surya Bonaly was never credited with a quadruple salchow? As far as I can see from the videos, Bonaly's 4S was no more underrotated than Seyfert's 3R. Indeed, it was less underrotated, if it was underrotated at all.
     
  9. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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  10. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, p-o-l-i-t-i-k
     
  11. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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  12. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I think like Schuba, Peggy Flemming had usually such a cushion after figures that she could afford several mistakes in the free skate and still win overall. That being said, I never thought that Peggy watered down her LP content even with her big figures lead - she still had 2 or 3 2 axels planned in the program, plus some 2-2 combinations.


    Even a free skate like Seyfert's 1970 World Championship LP (which she had to come from behind to beat Schuba) would still not have been able to beat Flemming overall. Unfortunately, the video for that free skate is no longer on youtube.
     
  13. matti

    matti Active Member

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    The Ossi judge put her first and the Kanadian sixth.
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/html/results/jp_3d/10_grenoble/10_figure/10_figure_w_ex.htm

    They had to do only five figures at the 1968 Olympics. I think the easiest one was omitted (the counter?), but it was still 60% of the total score. Four years later the weight of the figures was dropped to 50%, but they did all the six figures.

    Hmmmm 1968 figures were 60% of the total score, 1969-72 only 50%.
     
  14. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Was it? Where is it documented that it was credited? I'd never heard of it before this thread.
     
  15. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

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    Everything I've ever read on the subject says that in 1968 Seyfert became the first woman to land a triple loop in competition, and the now-vanished Youtube video, posted by Eva Pawlik's son ("viennapianoman") said specifically that it was at Euros (and indeed showed it in all its underrotated glory). Her 1968 Olympic FS was up too, and I think her 1968 Worlds one was as well. She certainly didn't do one at the Olympics.

    It may be that back in 1968, no one at the ISU was ratifying jumps the way they did in Bonaly's day. In 1968, very few women had even attempted a triple jump in competition, and it was extremely unusual for a man to attempt more than one in a single program.
     
  16. delaford321

    delaford321 New Member

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    wow, the lost history of gender barrier breaking. can you not contact whomever used to have that youtube account?
     
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I had always heard Priscilla Hill as being the first to land it in competition.

    This page supports that.

    I wouldn't be surprised if American or German sources interpret "first" differently. There aren't any official ISU sources on the subject, are there?
     
  18. manleywoman

    manleywoman podcast mistress

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    When I interviewed Barbara Ann Scott, she was listed as the first woman to land a 2lutz. But recently I read someone else got that credit (can't remember who).
     
  19. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    And nobody has mentioned the obvious: Peggy Fleming had "The Look" (physical beauty of face & figure) to wins fans to the sport and sell magazine covers. You don't think that that doesn't play into judging via the 'Artistic Impression' mark and even today in the 'PCS'? Of course it did...and does, in a watered-down manner. (Not as blatantly as before.)
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I mean by the scores out of 6.0 via one another.
     
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Fleming's skating did not appear to be as athletic as Seyfert or Maskova. However, she was balletic, flexible and sublime. Her abilities in Figures suggest that while princessy, she had good edges. As mentioned, she did have the full complement of jumps for the time and so much of her program was linked together with transitions and MITF. Perhaps the Olympic judges appreciated this and is why she won handily. In fact, I believe she had a row of 5.9s for Artistic impression

    I do recall years after her win, she noted in an interview that she was disappointed with her '68 Grenoble LP, and I recall her popping a jump or two when I watched it. IOW, it wasn't captivating or anything but I have never ever recalled her win being labeled 'controversial' or a head-scratcher.

    BTW, ETA - There was another top US lady up to the mid-60s. I think she retired before Grenoble but I think she may have competed post- Innsbruck '64. Her name was Christine Haigler and she was a top US competitor post-1961 crash for quite a few years. I wonder what happened to her?
     
  22. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    Peggy fell out of her double lutz early, singled her 2nd double axel out of a spreadeagle, 2footed her second double flip and popped her final double sal into a single with a double 3 out of it. Considering that, her marks at the Olympics are a bit of a joke, but Gaby didn't skate all that great either. I believe she left out some of her combo's and both her double axels were very tight.
     
  23. viennese

    viennese Well-Known Member

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    re: Tina Noyes

    I never saw her skate, but I am sure I saw her coaching around Boston (skating club of Boston, Hayden, Burlington ice rink) and at competitions when I was a kid (late 70s).

    She must have been one of the youngest pros around. She did not look any older than the young skaters she was coaching.

    I definitely remember reading about her participating in Olympic torch runs when the games came to the United States.
     
  24. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    According to Katarina Witt's book Mueller is not allowed to coach in the new German Skating Federation. Witt doesn't say whether the ban is official or unofficial, but I remember they tried to ban Ingo Steuer for rumored Stasi connections, but relented when S/S refused to compete without him.

    Witt doesn't say why Mueller is banned, but she implies that it is because of Mueller's former political connections to East Germany. Wasn't her second husband (Herr Mueller) an East German official?
     
  25. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    Christine Haigler's married name is Krall; she is a coach in Colorado Springs. I believe she retired from competition after the 1964/65 season. If I remember correctly, she won the 1965 U.S. silver medal on the strength of her figures. She placed first in that phase, but had a disappointing free skate and, of course, was overtaken by Peggy Fleming. Tina Noyes was third that year.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

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    She is Patrick Chan's coach in case anyone is wondering. :)
     
  27. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't be surprised if recycled dresses were common in those days. Skating wasn't a money sport back then. Dorothy wore a homemade dress to the Olympics.

    I always felt sorry for Anett Poetsch. She was forced to retire immediately after winning the OGM. No shows, nothing. Imagine having to quit cold turkey at the peak of your career.

    Katarina must have been quite a force to reckon with. She was allowed to tour and to train for a second Olympics. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during training with Frau Mueller. Apparently she trained Katarina, Anett, and Jan Hoffman together.
     
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I remember reading SI articles as a teen and in 1986, there were printed rumors in an SI issue that Witt might retire after '86 Worlds but those were quickly quashed when she lost to Debi, and she said she'd be around to try and get back the title in '87. Glad she did. Even if not a fan, her '87 Worlds LP was a joy to watch.
     
  29. Bronxfan

    Bronxfan Active Member

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    Oh - thank you! I was wondering who she was!
     
  30. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

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    Here's an excerpt from Katarina's book, Only With Passion:

    And another quote: