Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by spikydurian, Oct 13, 2012.
What can I say?
I profess I don't know as many "facts" about Plush as you apparently do. However, since I've followed skating for years, and watched Plush's skating for years and seen him in television interviews and features, and watched a Plush documentary, maybe I do know a few things. But yes, you seem more than capable of correcting me and refreshing my memory.
In any case, just because Plush, Irina, and Alena Leonova for that matter, are Russian does not mean they are necessarily "balletic" in their styles of skating. If Plush took ballet training before he went to Mishin, then he must have stopped focusing on ballet training once he came under Mishin's wing. Surely Plush had great potential as a dancer -- that is abundantly clear. But in the above interview, Plush is quoted as saying, "I chose skating." Therefore, he apparently stopped taking ballet lessons once he chose to become a skater. (What was his age when he went to train with Mishin?) IMO, Plush would have benefited by continuing some rigorous off-ice ballet training. I seriously doubt that happened, particularly because it does not seem that Mishin stresses the importance of ballet to gain more stretch, flexibility and grace on the ice.
Altho' I am guilty of continuing to respond to your posts, lala, this is the wrong thread in which to continue this discussion if its solely about Plush, his artistry and his ballet training.
Poor Kurt (again) Look at the commotion your tweets have created. Tweet in paragraphs, be concise and specific if you ever tweet the P word again otherwise be prepard to be ....
Of course Plitsetskaya would choose a Bolshoi guy! Plushenko is more Bolshoi, with Yagudin having been more Mariinsky.
I think Plushenko is better looking than Godunov, that he looks more like Liepa (the father, Vasiliev's contemporary), and that he'd have been great in Vasiliev's roles, although his Crassus would be as good as his Spartacus.
Uber-fans are funny. I used to really enjoy Plush. I've been quite disappointed in him since after, oh, 2004-2005? Boring programs.
The truth... only the truth
Not only Plisetskaya choose Plush, do you know who is Tsiskaridze? Principal dancer in Bolshoi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWkq47A41cA
He really admires Plush.
He has ballet training continuously!! David Avdish his friends and his choreoghrapher-i know you don't like him- is ballet dancer and choreographer!! If you have time look at this.
The legendary Nijinsky program, eleven 6.0!! Perfect.
The choreographer was a young ballet dancer in Balshoi, Yuriy Smekalov.
A German documentum film:
And if you want to know what think the Russians about Plush( Kostomarov etc.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqGEGsRigc Plushy had not only ballet lessions but Mishin brought him a teacher, who teached Plushy how to make faces in perfromance.
Yes, I'm. I wonder..Did you bore his Tango in Sheffield 2012? The crowd and the European commentators went crazy for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-7c-9GqE3Q the best exhibition in 2010!
That was an unfortunate decision
lala, I am sure they are all bored at his EC2012 performance. Only uber fans and layman in the crowd can see the beauty of that program.
Maybe the administrator can move this post to the Trash can and change to another title? I mean we can keep a post here to discuss the rest of Kurt's article and discuss about Plushenko in the Trash Can? (actually I am quite enjoy reading these discussions since they are funny, but now it is quite OT so...)
As for me - it didn't bore me, although there were programs that I liked better.
For me, it's not the best exhibition in 2010. It's good, but includes many of Plushenko's usual mooves. Besides, it's always easier to excite crowds with humorous and funny programs (as it is with something dynamic, dancy and sexy with intentional sexy moves - Evgeni tends to use them too ). When the public gives a standing ovation for a serious and complex program - that's another thing entirely. Of course, Plushenko has had those moments too.
Yaya, I don't care if the moderator will delete this post, but i would like to show some opinions. They aren't laymen:
YOU ARE WRONG!
Sonia Bianchetti Garbato about EC http://www.soniabianchetti.com/about_sonia.html
Plushenko, who placed second in the short program, gave a strong performance to "Tango de Roxanne", which included a quadruple toe-loop and seven triples, including two triple Axels. Evgeny's free program was the only flawless program of the event. The fact he was able to execute a quad was a kind of miracle because of the serious problems he is having with his knee. He will have to undergo surgery again in the next weeks.
In spite of this, the Czar was able to give an explosive performance, at great speed and full of passion. Evgeny was the only skater who really filled the ice, who was able to communicate all the time with the spectators in the arena, driving them crazy. Once again he proved to be a great champion. Welcome back, Evgeny! But a question comes to my mind: why do we have to rely on the comeback of an old champion to create such an atmosphere in the arena? Why are the new talented skaters not able to achieve this? Is there something wrong in the development of the sport?
The charmer of ice returned to his throne, not that he was ever gone for that matter. Evgeni Plushenko, the charismatic Russian with graceful aetherial movement succeeded once again to charm audiences and judges and climbed to the highest top of the podium at the European Figure Skating Championships held in Sheffield, England. He knew that all media lights would be turned on him due to his absence from major events last year. Everybody waited in the ... corner to record any slip. Eventually, he did not made them the favor.
Despite a knee injury, the Russian with blond hair - his trademark - slided on the ice with that characteristic ease of his which gives the illusion of ... convenience. For Plushenko figure skating is not just a sport, but his whole life...
The King of all comebacks
I said previously but I'll say it again. Holy Crap. Oh my goodness. The men's free programme was something else. In the big daddy of all shocking comebacks Evgeni Plushenko skated out of his skin and scored his best mark ever to win the European title for the seventh time. Seriously there aren't enough italics in the world for me to properly convey my surprise and awe at this situation. The man is unbelievable. His free skate to an amazing arrangement of 'el tango de Roxanne' was just fabulous, full of power, drama and attack and despite not having skated in a while he still looked close to swaggering, imperious best.
Όταν βγήκε στην παγοπίστα είδαμε ένα άλλο πατινάζ. Το πατινάζ του Plushenko είναι μακράν το καλύτερο. Θα έλεγα ότι είναι εκτός ανταγωνισμού. Λες και όλοι οι υπόλοιποι είναι γήινοι κι ο Plushenko από άλλο γαλαξία. Η συνολική βαθμολογία (261.23 με διαφορά 15 από τον δεύτερο δείχνει ακριβώς αυτό το χάσμα.
When he got on the ice we saw another figure skating. Plushenko's skating is the absolute best by far.I would say he is beyond any competition. It is like all the rest (skaters) are from earth and Plushenko is from another galaxy! His total score indicates exactly that chasm!
...Morozov is the most spread coach in figure skating. He coaches and choreographes for all 4 cathegories. Morozov sums up the Europeans for the Team Russia 2014.
TR: What was the main event of the Europeans?
NM: Pluschenko's gold. I'm overwhelmed with his skating! In the Lp he showed the level that no one could this season, not even the Canadian Patrick Chan. Many say Pluschenko's components were too high, but I would give him even higher marks! He has the charisma that a true champion must have....
“I am shocked form Plushenko’s skating”
The expert of “Gazeta Ru” Nikolay Morozov about the results in the EC- 2012
The expert of “Gazeta Ru” Nikolay Morozov, observing the results of the European championships of figure skating, stated, that he was shocked form Evgeni Plushenko’s performance in Sheffield. The famous coach and producer valued highly the artistry of the 7 times European champion.
The main event of the competition in Sheffield became the return of Evgeni Plushenko. I was simply shocked from his performance. How much masculine power he has!
In the free program Evgeni showed such a level, which in this season cannot show even Patrik Chan.
And the marks for the components are not heightened. I would have put even higher ones! The skating, which Plushenko shows, is a real man’s skating. He has a charisma. That is why his skating is a felt like a skating, not just walking on the ice.
“The return of Plushenko – this is a remarkable event in the life of the world sport. I cried all the night from exaltation after his performance, because he went out winning over himself, his fear and pain, and showed all the world how a great sportsman of nowadays should behave and live. Plushenko leads not only our figure skating, but the world figure skating. I admire this impulse in him and bow down before Mishin’s talent. All this calls forth exaltation and an enormous gratitude.” – said Tarasova in a phone conversation.
The coach thinks, that the performance of Plushenko was prepared “very professionally and knowledgeably”. “In the beginning of the free program the most important element was done – the quad, and all the rest were as if strung after it. Zhenya skated with an enormous joy and presented with this joy all the planet.”
“I can imagine what a hard work it had been – to prepare Plushenko, to help him recover from the injury. I am very grateful to Alexey Mishin and to all the team – the choreographer, the coach for the general physical training, I am grateful, of course, to Zhenya too. I am grateful to his wife Jana, that she keeps this fire burning.
Nicky Slater, Eurosport commentator
Skating highlights? Plushenko, of course. Evgeni was not ‘more of the same’ for me, which is what I expected. There was less frenetic movement, more strength in his presence, sophistication in the choreography and maturity, plus the impressive technical. Great to see him back stronger than ever.
The main event this year – if the crowd was anything to go by – was the Men’s. The arena was packed and the audience was excited, mainly, I think, because of the return of Olympic gold medallist and twice silver medallist, Evgeni Plushenko, who – as ever – didn’t disappoint.
We have done many shows with Evgeni and there is no doubt that he is a star in the skating world. He has a presence which is hard to define and almost impossible to imitate – as his training partner, runner up Artur Gachinski, can attest to.
Artur skated cleanly and landed more quads than Evgeni, tried his best to skated like him and in some ways is more able in the transition steps. Yet, somehow, when he finished, he was met with good applause rather than the impromptu standing ovation and wild enthusiasm following Plushenko. Many people questioned Evgeni’s comeback, but I think he proved here in Sheffield that he is still one of the best competitors ever in the sport and certainly a big draw. He is also a charmer, praising the organization and atmosphere of the event in his interview following the competition.
Thanks for posting the Tsiskaridze in Slow Motion vid. Spectacular! As far as balletic power and grace, Plush is no comparison to Tsiskaridze (altho' I concede Plush has equal power and flair in performance).
Re David Avdish, since I'm not familiar with him at all, I don't know how you can determine that I "don't like him." Thanks for the introduction, btw.
Re what you or someone else said before about Plush being more handsome than Alexander Godunov, yes I agree there's some truth to that. However, Godunov had a more rugged, sensual charisma and sexual appeal, at least for me.
Okay, so Plush is balletic God of ice for Russians. So be it. IMHO, Plush was clearly more balletic at a younger age on the ice, but any focus on the finer details of balletic grace is not apparent to me in his later skating career. As he matured, Plush's focus seems to have been more on training to perfect and maintain consistency on his jumps, no matter that he also took some ballet training and tried to incorporate dance elements/ themes in his skating. Pre-2010, Plush seemed more focused on footwork and did not engage his upper body as much. His use of his arms is apparent but seemingly more like an afterthought. It must be hard (even for a great ballet choreographer) to tell a skating God what they should be doing in order to finish off moves with more stretch and balletic grace.
Also, I do not like the hunching forward tendency when landing jumps that many males (including Plush) exhibited during a certain period. Much of that changed when Johnny Weir displayed his effortless jumping style and smooth upright landing carriage circa 2003 - 2008. Johnny had developed such great posture largely due to his years as a young equestrian athlete.
Okay, lala, re your #73 post:
OH BOY, I know Kurt Browning is not coming back to compete eligibly, but at this point in this thread, we need some Kurt quotes and Kurt vids going, don'tcha think? Besides, we must give Kurt some credit that his wife is a ballet dancer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyUCqUbkvpA Feelin' Good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMMEaiMcsQU&feature=related I'm Yours
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI_NVbaNYvU&feature=related (with quotes by S/P no less!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da8HEwnKBu8&feature=related -- He's so clever, so cool, so funny!
Lightning Crashes, indeed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTstfCux2hc&feature=related (with his wife, Sonia)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL537okIJaE&feature=relmfu Kurt with his family at the dinner table
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAngxNlAQAY&feature=related Kurt's Serenade to Sonia -- with Nat King Cole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RtL68KBBhY&feature=related Brick House, nuff said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Izl1CA1uA&feature=related Now that's flamenco on ice!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8F5l4_R_38 (Kurt with hair!) Singin' in the Rain -- Gene Kelly on Ice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXhe8DLDU58&feature=relmfu Kurt rockin' his facial expressions w/ first performance of Brick House
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq8xtbo2Wiw&feature=related Kurt Steppin' Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgYHsPAEZ2A Summertime, choreographed by Zhulin
Kurt is one of the best figure skaters to never win an Olympic medal. Like at Academy Awards, there should be an honorary award/ gold medal given to skaters like Kurt for their extraordinary accomplishments and contributions to the sport. Thank you, Kurt!
Thanks lala, there are some articles I missed from EC. I am not saying that expert won't find Plushenko good, they are (at least some of them are). I was just being sarcasm.
Re aftershocks, since we are not ending the discussion then I would just point out that Dai is an elegant skater but his style is not ballet style IMO. Plushenko on the other hand is classic Russian ballet style skater. IMO Dai's style is more closer to the contemporary dancing.
And thanks for all Kurt's links, he is a great entertainer and his 3A is gorgeous. The sing in the rain (with hair version) is really nice. He has really amazing steps. BTW, I think Plushenko once said that he likes Browning's steps (or the way to control the blade, I forgot his exact words).
But I would say that I like Plushenko's flamingo better. I hope someday he can do a full flamingo program instead of just half of it.
Way OT: The tap dancing from Kurt and the ballet quality in Plushenko lead me to think about the movie "white night", one of my favorite movies.
^^ I agree that Dai has a contemporary style of movement, but great jazz and modern dance (and especially in this era, all styles of dance) benefit by ballet training. Professional dancers today must have ballet training if they hope to be successful. There is a video on youtube with Dai speaking to a famous Japanese ballet dancer to gain advice; also Dai took dance (ballet?) lessons to prepare for his Rockin' Swan program, under Morosov.
Kurt is the epitome of "entertainer"!
Ah, I can definitely see Plush as a Flamingo http://anwo.com/store/flamingo_toy.html
-- (you mean flamenco, eh?)
I love your reference to White Nights! There should definitely be a remake staring Evgeni Plushenko and Kurt Browning!
Damn typo. Yes of course I am referring to flamenco. But I do not mind Plush portraying flamingo He performed crazy bird before, right? I do miss the days when he presented funny numbers in Gala. He can be a great entertainer if he wants, just saying.
As for ballet training, I am not saying that Dai or other skaters do not have ballet training. Just to say that Plush's style is different from them, he is more classic ballet style while contemporary dancing is a bit softer in moves (IMO).
I missed this post, so have to argue a bit with you. I agree that Plush's program after Nijinsky are not very ballet like except "moonlight". But the "Swan" is back to his classic ballet style in a bit softer version. It is safe to say that in your opinion he is lacking ballet training, which other people (e.g. me) is not necessarily agree with you. I think we just need to agree on disagree on this topic.
Again this is your opinion on jumps and your preference. For me, I like Plush's jumps because his jumps are powerful yet elegant. Weir's jumps are beautiful, which fit his smoothing style. While Plush's jumps fit his powerful skating. These are different styles, not that one is better than the other. So let us agree on disagree again
Why do you keep saying that it was Weir that made judges notice and start rewarding artistry? Buttle started getting recognition around the same time as Weir, but his programs were far more inventive and sophisticated..
I know, you'd think Weir skated in an entirely different era from Lambiel and Buttle, who are far more original, inventive, and more successful than Weir.
Can't believe it! Getting
See what you've done Kurt!
^^ Agree to disagree with you shine and museksk8r. I understand people are loath to consider that Johnny has had any positive impact whatsoever on the sport of figure skating.
In any case, I did not say that it was Weir who "made judges notice and start rewarding artistry." Those are your words, shine. After all, artistry in figure skating existed long before Johnny was born.
I said that when Johnny came along with his grace, smoothness, effortless jumps, upright posture on jump landings combined with exquisite ride-out, everyone took notice, including the judges. Plus, it just happens to be my opinion that the creative style and grace of skaters like Buttle and Lambiel also began to be more appreciated circa 2004 to present. Yes, Buttle had/ has great inventive programs, thanks to his collaboration with David Wilson and his own originality. Lambiel is a wonderful free spirit, and very voidy and inventive too. Both of them have contributed much to the sport and have obviously had greater success with the judges than Johnny ever had and likely ever will have.
Frankly, I would love to interview both Buttle and Lambiel and ask them to answer truthfully whether they were ever inspired by watching Johnny Weir skate. And it certainly doesn't mean that if they were ever inspired by Johnny that they lack creative inspiration, inventiveness and originality themselves.
Bejesus, I do declare: Within the sport of figure skating, it must be a sin to even think of complimenting Johnny Weir! That devilish, rebellious diva, albeit he's considered somewhat reformed and more accepted these days due to his success beyond the skating world.
Best wishes to ya Johnny artiste. ...
And, definitely we too can agree to disagree yaya and lala.
Yeah, Nan, I know, on second thought, NO!
Unfortunatly most of my posts here were and will be my opinions. But I will try, I am gonna claim that's the truth, the truth, the truth, the truth.....And hopefully after I repeat it thousands of times, it will finally become the truth.
And I like this idea too, claim to respect someone first, then it will be safe to downgrade him/her. Or downgrade someone first, then claim to be his or her fan, it will make the opinion looks more like the truth, right?
Oh, I agree with you, shine. If you take for instance Jeffrey's SP and Johnny's SP from the 2006 Olympics, the variety/diversity in Jeffrey's steps, turns and leans with multiple changes of direction is plain awesome. I'd dare to say Jeffrey was doing far more with his blade in his program than Johnny was and his solo jumps come out of nowhere. To me, Jeffrey's SP is way more exciting to watch even with the fall on the 3A than Johnny's clean but pretty simple program for the CoP standards.
Johnny had/has beautiful edge quality and beautiful flow in his skating, I don't understand why he never really pushed himself in approaching more complex choreographies. Mind you, I am not a Jeffrey Buttle uber, nor am I a Johnny Weir hater.
But since this is a Browning thread, here is one of my favorites from Kurt.
I suspect this kind of program that I would call a throw-back to the days of figures will never be as popular among fs viewers as those who bring the drama to the ice but I think it's quite enjoyable to see a skater doing totally amazing edgework for a change.
^^ Nice assessment, VarBar. No argument that Johnny has not always had similar "awesome" choreo to Buttle's, but I tend to prefer the simplicity and grace of Johnny's Swan to Buttle's Sing, Sing, Sing program. Yes indeed tho,' fabulous blade work by Buttle.
IMO, Johnny's sp at 2008 Worlds was fantastic and not a whit less better than Buttle's sp performance. The judges picked Buttle over Weir in that instance, and of course their choice and faith in Buttle was proved correct by Buttle outperforming everyone in his fp at 2008 Worlds.
So much variety among skaters and differences of opinion among fans re figure skating. As it is and ever shall be.
I've gotta ask, aftershocks, you've complained about how Chan ubers talk about their idol to the point where you say they've actually turned you off Chan's skating. I'm wondering what you perceive the difference is between how they talk about Chan and how you talk about Weir?
I know I'm days late to the game, but I just have to say, the way fans (over) react to things astonishes me again and again. Kurt chooses to single out Jeff Buttle (who by all accounts, *was* amazing at Japan Open - I know he was at Medal Winners Open) and Evgeni Plushenko to praise them in a Twitter post (that is limited to 140 characters), and instead of taking it as the compliment it is that he was blown away enough by Plushenko's jumping to comment about it, people take it as an insult that he only mentioned the jumping. Wtf?
BTW I know for a fact that Kurt thought that aside from Patrick, all the other guys in the Japan Open were "out of their minds good". But if you follow him on Twitter, you soon realize that he rarely tweets and only tweets about a subset of what you'd think he'd tweet about (failing to mention events he does, etc). When he writes things like this article, or does extensive interviews, you know he has a lot of deep thoughts and opinions about everything, but on Twitter, he barely skims the surface. Of course, people searching for "@EvgeniPlushenko" on Twitter have no idea of context and leap to their own conclusions based on their own preconceptions. Poor Kurt indeed.