Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by spikydurian, Oct 13, 2012.
lala, why are you so upset?
Kurt Browning is entitled to his opinion.
You are entitled to yours.
If he had meant that, he could have said something like Buttle and Plushenko both showed how to combine amazing jumps with amazing artistry.
I'm not a plushy Uber BTW, I'm just saying how it could have sounded to people reading the tweet.
Well, Plushenko sure didn't act "sportsmanlike" and congratulatory toward Evan on the podium. Plush's behavior in 2010 upon winning Olympic silver and missing out on gold was something you'd never have seen from skaters like Kurt Browning.
Obviously no rehash needed, but at 2010 Olympics, Plush definitely questioned Lysacek's and other male skaters' manhood for not doing quads. That's one reason why quads are just "soooo necessary" these days.
Plush could have been an artistic God but earlier in his career (especially since Mishin has always been more focused on jumps, in a similar way to Coach Z in the U.S.) Plush failed to fully develop the artistic side of his skating. Belatedly he's trying to now, because of what Weir, Lambiel, Buttle, Dai, Chan, Abbott, and a budding Hanyu have brought to the sport.
Once Yags retired, Plush got lazy in the artistic expression department, IMHO. He was winning all the time (and certainly was not being challenged artistically by skaters like Goebel and Joubert), so he relied on his jumps, his charm, and his footwork.
There's no reason in the world that Kurt would have even thought of "dissing" another skater in the way you still seem to be saying he must have "meant." Clearly, in his follow-up tweet, Kurt was both bemused and apologetic to Plush fans who mistook his meaning. And, as another poster here already pointed out, Kurt had inserted a thumbs-up in his original tweet after his reference to Plushenko's jumping (which was not visible to all, depending upon how the tweet was accessed).
In any case, Kurt was praising what Buttle brought to that competition, just like a lot of fans have been doing here on FSU, as well Kurt was praising Plush's jumps, again just like a lot of fans have done on FSU.
Oh, this age old "once Yags retired" argument. Repeating it won't make it more true. Funny that Plushy's more famous programs like Nijunsky all came along when Yags retired. And from the several shows that I attended in the past two years, the audience IS treating Plushy as an artistic God. They were not screaming and clapping their heads off for Quads, which Plushy did not perform during shows. They were clapping for great skating speed, connection with the audience, command of ice, the projection of emotions, and the excitement you get from his skating. That was why show organizers always serve him out as the main dish.
We can argue with words here on messaging board until faces are turning blue, in the real world, people voice their opinions with their money and their feet. Jumping Bean or Artistic God, he is the one and the only Plushenko.
EP: I believe that Lysacek is good but an average athlete. He is not unique....Unique athletes are Chan, Yagudin, Urmanov, Petrenko, Browning, Boitano. But Lysacek ... I think he won because of the judges.
I agree with him. He said what is his opinion, he was brave, and he had army of supporters.
Plunshenko has always been an artistic god in his exhibition and show programs, showing remarkable versatility. That's what has made it so frustrating when his competitive programs have been empty, the same thing that makes it frustrating to watch potentially great programs become watered down to unrecognizable over the course of a season.
You cannot praise one thing of someone without praising every other thing as well? That is just ridiculous.
Plushenko has other great qualities like personalities. How about not putting it in the sentence as well? Does it mean someone's dissing his personalities when the poster praised his jumps without mentioning his great personalities??
You're the one who posted about "the shade" and showed how to mis-interpret the original tweet. I thought those are your opinion.
Plushenko received his first perfect 6.0 mark when he was 16, the youngest ever for a man, and by the time the old system was mothballed after the 2003-04 season, Plushenko had amassed 75 perfect 6.0s, including the last four given out to a male competitor at the Worlds (2004, for free skating presentation).
And if you were intrested in FS before SLC you can remeber, Plush beat Yagudin more than once, look at this, i think it's very unequivocal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbjJufbHXpE&list=FLiq7gYWVwyinmFDs286ioww&index=49&feature=plpp_video with ABC comentar, Plushy charmed them,no doubt.
ISN'T HE ARTISTRY????? Or his Moonlight Sonata, Adagio, Tango and Flamenco, Bolero, Gipsy dance, ETC.?
Don't expect everyone to agree.
It's not "disrespectful" to disagree; no matter who offers their opinion.
Yep, he will forever be the one and the only Plushenko, and that's saying a lot. He gets loads of respect from people, even those who are not necessarily huge fans. He unfortunately lost his perspective and sportsmanlike attitude when Lysacek won gold in 2010. Certainly Lysacek is not a skating God, but Plush's reaction to being beat did not win him any fans (particularly among TPTB in fs and general public). Sure "in the last couple of years," Plush has been working on his carriage over the ice, on his artistic side, and on transitions more than he had been doing circa 2003 - 2006. When Plush came back for 2010 Olympics, he was still relying on jumps, charm and footwork, while his upper body was not doing very much.
Yes, figure skating is a very subjective sport, GoGreen. Yes, take Yags out of the equation too. You're right, Plush did have some kickin' artistic programs (for that era) before and after Yags retired. And in any case, I'm not one of those Yags ubers who believes that Yags was such a King in the area of artistry either. Under TT's tutelage, Yags was just beginning to explore his artistic side at 2002 Olympics. Both Yags and Plush were initially coached by Mishin, so the focus for both of them was more heavily on jumps, IMO. Again, Yags left Mishin and began to expand his focus. I concede that Plush wasn't a total slouch artistically once Yags retired. But Plush did not continue to deeply explore artistic expression because he had no one to challenge him consistently in that area.
Plush's artistry is not nonexistent (it is rather distinctive, instinctive and deriving from his personality). However, landing his jumps with a more upright carriage, paying attention to stretch, grace, fluidity and smooth moves over the ice was never Plush's strong suit. And it wasn't until Johnny Weir came along circa 2004 - 2006 that those qualities began to be more appreciated, sought after, and rewarded in skaters like Buttle and Lambiel. Even Joubert had to struggle with the new way men were being looked at. IOW, Joubert too had to begin working harder on improving his landing carriage, choreo, stretch, spin positions, and transitions (and obviously all of these factors also became more important under the new judging system).
Of course. Plushy was unbeatable, he was a real dominant skater. Those forum members who are fans of other skaters, begun to hate him. And they created some explanations, which belittled him. So the ENVY is the real reason, why is overflowing bad mouth on FSU towards Plushy. I think on FSU the members don't know or don't remember his programs, or don't want to remember...
WOW and again WOW! IF you follow him, you would know he didn't lost the people's respect after Vancouver. On the contrary, for example 2010 on GSA show Torino, the people demonstrated their support and love. Plush couldn't skate because the crowd cheering for him!
delirium for Plushenko 3 minutes!
And that isn't true, Yag more artistry skater like Plush, look at their early years, Plush has a congenital presentation skills.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNCw1ZvLRvU listen to D: Button!
Yag's had 3-4 super programs choreographed by Tarasova, no more.
And I do not want to Plushy skates like Lambiel, or Weir. Plushy is the man on ice! I think this is one of the reasons, why the crowd go crazy for him, because he does the figure skating a manly way. Do you remember of his program on ECH 2012? He had a real masculine power.
I have to admit I vaguely remember that one but not by exact words.
But the question and the complete answer is
But nevertheless, he smiled (though probably bitterly) and shook Lysacek's hand on the podium. Same as Dai did (not smiling bitterly part of course) out there.
I'm sure Plush did not "lose the people's respect" in his own country lala, nor the respect of his adoring fans no matter the country.
However, I don't think the TPTB in figure skating were happy with Plush's reaction to not winning the gold in 2010. I'll bet Plush did have to work on regaining favor with TPTB, because even tho' Russian fed was also upset for Plush not winning, Plush's unsportsmanlike comments did not represent very well on the big stage, and definitely were not appreciated by everyone. It's Plush's reputation as a champion that obviously helped him overcome giving the finger to ISU judges at 2010 Olympics. Still, Plush and Russian fed are powers to be reckoned with too so quads became mandatory post-2010, especially when Chan (following Plush's heed) mastered them.
Thanks VarBar for your article link.
Indeed, Plush is right that Lysacek "won because of the judges," and that generally will always be the case (the judges necessarily will have something to do with it ), but a skater winning Olympic gold is also because of hard work, determined effort, athleticism, clean programs when others falter, fed support, and often skating politics.
As to Yags and Plushy and their "artistry," I much prefer the skating and artistry of Urmanov and Abt. I even enjoy Kulik's skating more. Altho' I do admit that Yags and Plushy took men's skating to a different level (especially Yags with the beauty of his jumps and the impact of his great desire and determination at 2002 Olympics).
And now, I'd like to praise Kurt Browning for coming back to skate one of his iconic programs competitively at the age of 46. Now that's amazing!
I personally really respect Plushenko, and I don't think that he has no artistry at all as many other people say. I rather agree with aftershocks that his artistry is more instinctive and coming from his personality. I also agree that he has been quite versatile if we look at his whole skating career, but, from what I have seen (not everything), lately his peresentation/artistry also in exhibition programs hasn't been that versatile - imho. But, admittedly, he's trying to be a bit different in his new LP.
As for "hating" him, it may be true of some people, but you can't say that about all people who don't like Plushenko's skating and/or like other skaters better. Probably they just value different things in skating more, so they don't have to "create explanations". For them, these are the real reasons for liking other skaters better, not something that's just made up. Saying that all of us just "hate'' Plushenko for being unbeatable, is disrespectful towards our opinions. Also, your attitude is disrespectful towards other skaters who actually are no worse than Plushenko, but just haven't had their best qualities rewarded as much by the system as his best quality - jumps - has been rewarded. Of course, I am not talking about Yagudin now, since he was also a great jumper, and was accordingly rewarded for that (and other things). But, the thing is, there are people (including me) who love other skaters more because of their better qualities - skating skills, carriage/lines/grace, or a different kind of artistry than Plushenko's. Saying that we are just "creating" those explanations, is like belittling those skaters and their qualities.
THX! It's enough for me. Of course,matter of taste, who is our favorite, and I respect the other skaters. But we, Plushy's fans are so angry when some people say that he isn't artistry, and say unreal thing about him. You know we have an interview with Maya Plisetskaya, she is the most famous balerina in XX. century. She said about Plushenko-I think she knows what is the beauty and what is the real art.
PLUSHENKO: HANDSOME AND UNREACHABLE
E.S. - I cannot not ask you about Plushenko.
M.P.- He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see.
E.S.- What do you think about his appearance?
M.P.- I think his appearance is fine. He is tall, striking, with a handsome body and long arms. He is not some cute guy from the postcard, thanks god he is not!, but he has the perfect face for the stage. The ice is the stage too.
E.S.- Who does he remind you among ballet dancers?
M.P.- He looks like Godunov, the Russian ballet dancer. The same type- tall, handsome, self-confident, with long waving in the wind and pirouettes blond hair. In ballet he would be perfect at parts performed by Godunov. He has the temperament and virtuosity for that."
Don't you believe her?
ITA with your comments lauravvv!
No, of course Plushy doesn't and should not "skate like" any other skater. Every skater to be truly great must find their own identity on the ice. Part of what makes Dai Takahashi so great IMHO, is that he has been inspired by his peers to improve all aspects of his own skating. Dai constantly seeks to challenge himself to get better. Dai has more stretch and musicality and fluid carriage than he had when he first broke on the scene in 2004 - 2005, but he expresses those qualities through his own personality and uniqueness.
I agree that Plushy indeed has a powerful personality and great will, and that it is the force of his personality which makes him a dynamic and charismatic skater. However, Plush as I said before was not consistently challenged to keep improving, particularly in the area of artistic expression. Even at 2006 Olympics, Johnny Weir's iconic Swan was placed behind Plush in the sp, due to Plush's powerful persona, great jumps, reputation with the judges, will of a champion (and sure "machismo"), but not due to Plush's less than stellar choreography and lack of transitions.
Plush obviously loves figure skating. It has been his life. He wants to make history re winning more than one Olympic gold medal. He wants to transcend the mortal ravages of age. Even should he for some reason be unable to compete at Sochi (highly unlikely since he is obviously trying to pace himself) what Plushenko has thus accomplished in the sport is remarkable and legendary. Fans of Plush may think of him as an artistic God, but IMO, Plush will ultimately be remembered for his jumps, his will, his personality, his championship wins, his rivalry with Yagudin, and for his charisma on the ice, not for his artistry.
And since you bring "masculinity" into the discussion, yes, Plush may well also be most remembered for his fun and self-mocking Sex Bomb than for any of his more artistic programs.
AND AGAIN, shout out to Kurt for his courage, hard work and brilliance! Maybe another thread should be started in Trash Can to discuss Plushenko's qualities, appeal to his fans, etc.
Okay, WOW lala, re your previous post #47, why can't you simply enjoy Plushenko without needing to have everyone else enjoy him and see in him everything that you do? Many people who are not enamored of Plush's skating greatly respect him and his accomplishments. In this thread, I have qualified and clarified and explained my statements re how I view Plushenko in terms of artistry. What more are you seeking here? There will always be debates and disagreements and differing perceptions, etc., among everyone who follows figure skating. Differing opinions, viewpoints and perceptions of Plushenko do not negate yours.
Lala, no reason to convince other people that Plushenko is artistic. In his fans eyes, he is and is the best out there. But in other people's eyes, maybe he is not artistic at all. You will never convince somebody who cannot get it.
To all other people discussing this already OT subject, I think all fans, no matter if they are Plushenko fans or other skaters fans, we could not take insults or ignorant to something untrue. That is to say, if you argue that Plushenko's programs lack of transitions or his spin is not as good as Lambiel, I do not think Plushy fans will feel being offended. But his skating is really not all about jumps, otherwise he could not be so successful over the years. Especially about his artistry, a skater who skated Tribute to Nijinsky beautifully cannot be lacking artistry.
Back to Kurt's article, I do think ISU should get rid of some of the spinning positions, they are just so ugly!!!!!
Yes, indeed, I loved Alexander Godunov -- he was a wonderful actor too in the movie, Witness. How unfortunate his untimely death. Yes, I can see that comparison between Godunov and Plushenko, most definitely. The only difference is that Plushenko doesn't appear to have trained very much in ballet at all. I'm sure if Mishin* had made that an important focus of Plush's off-ice training, we would not even be having this debate. Foregone conclusion that Plush might likely already have two Olympic gold medals, because if he had brought great balletic artistry, stretch, grace and transitions with his jumps (despite his bobbles in his fp) at 2010 Olympics, he would have trumped Evan. Inman would have been unable to send an email to judges pointing out Plush's disregard for and lack of transitions.
* Indeed if Mishin would make ballet training more a focus of Gachinski's training, he too would make an admirable Godunov on ice. Demonstrating balletic attributes doesn't make any male dancer or figure skater less masculine. Plush may similarly have Godunov's handsome self-confidence and dramatic flair, but IMO he has little of Godunov's balletic grace.
This thread was started re Kurt Browning's comments on returning to competition, so please let's take the Plushenko discussion elsewhere!
Thanks yaya, I see you are trying to bring us back on topic.
Hey, dear Plushy fan, Plushy looks endearing in those videos. I happen to have some Yag's videos too. And these are not choreographed by Tarasova. In my humble opinion, more interesting than his amateur programs.
Like some, some other skaters' sour fans to be more precise, say he only has/had jumps, huh？
What Scott Hamilton said here has nothing to do with artistry, but whoa, are you sure you did not overrate Yagudin, Mr Hamilton?
It's like there's no way to beat him. Out jump him? He could jump too. Beat him on artistry? He has a teeny bit of that too. And a great command of his choreography? Sounds scary, he must have been overrated, definitely!
Whenever I read those long-winded analysis of Plushenko on FSU, I often got confused. By comparing each aspect of Plushenko to different skaters across two decades, aren't they trying to pay him the utmost compliment?
I have followed FS long enough to witness all those comparisons unfolding in the past 15 years:
- compare his jumping difficulty with that of Goebel;
- compare his dominance and command of ice with that of Yags;
- compare his lines and extensions with Eldredge then or Weir/Buttle now;
- compare his charisma on ice with Browning or Candoloro;
- compare his skating skills with Chan;
- compare his versatile styles, his artistry, his projection, consistency, posture, air position, landing position, skating speed, speed in and out of jumps, height and distance of jumps, ice coverage, edge quality, etc. with (insert your skater of choice for each category here).......
I prey that one day I will see some analysis on how Nathan Chan or any of the up and coming youngsters is better than Plushenko in terms of this and that. That day will probably cement his stature in figure skating history.
I read this forum a long time ago, and I got bored, how mocked Plushy and praised the rest. And I'm a fighting mode.
I have seen the whole Yagudin's programs, and I remember his presentation marks, when he was young. And I remember Plushy's presentation marks
In my country the commentator said about Yagudin, he is a great jumper but he need to improve the artistic side.
Oh boy, back to Plushy Yags tete a tete, because some people thought Kurt was "dissing" Plushenko, when he was actually praising him.
How about discussing Kurt's return to competition with his classic, Singin' in the Rain program? Anyone?
It seems, you understand the ballet better like Plisetskaya. But you are wrong, Plushenko has so many ballet lessons.
"He had very good ballet training and was asked to be a professional. This is from his interview:
Q: Is it true that you were invited to dance at Mariinski theater?
Evgeni: Yes, it happened when I moved to Leningrad to train with Mishin. I was confused. I said: "You've got to ask my mother." My mom said that I had to decide myself. I chose skating."
Do you think, any Russian skater miss the ballet lessons?
So you don't know any facts about Plush.
I love Kurt's Nyah program . really
Yes I believe you. And later his movements on the ice became more and more stiff, and used lots of frantic arm flailing only. I guess that's because he had to compete against Yagudin, huh? He had to focus on the jumps. I remember Alexei Mishin told Lambiel not to move his body too much, it could affect the execution of technical elements, very smart strategy. Look how stupid Yagudin was, used lots of upper body movement, and put lots of emotion into his programs, and yet the marks were low, what a waste.
I admire Yag! .... You don't say Plushy lack of artistry