Kostner vs Ando- better career

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Jul 14, 2013.

Kostner vs Ando- better career

  1. Kostner

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  2. Ando

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  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I gave Ando double the points for winning Nationals as I gave Kostner for winning Europeans though so I already took into consideration what you said. How much further should one go, punish Kostner for totally dominating Europeans like she is supposed to be doing. Ando earned more points from Nationals than Kostner did for Europeans under my points scale despite that Kostner has been way more dominant at Europeans than Ando at Nationals. For the record I dont think Ando would have won Europeans 5 times even if she had the opportunity to compete in it and she traded places with Kostner (she wasnt ever winning it before 2007, and she wouldnt have competed in it past 2011, and someone like Lepisto would have beaten her atleast once), and the competition at Europeans was actually harder 2003-2006 than Japanese Nationals since Slutskaya > anyone in Japan at the time, so I was more than generous to Miki in that estimate. Miki won 2 of her 3 Nationals when her toughest was Suguri, while Kostner would have had to beat Slutskaya to win a Europeans before 2007. During the time the competition at Japanese Nationals was truly much tougher than Europeans Kostner won 5 Europeans and Miki 1 Nationals.

    As for controversial wins Ando's 2011 World title was controversial to some people. Her 2009 Worlds medal also should have been considering her getting higher PCS than Rochette and Asada with her programs at the time is a joke, and that is the only reason she barely medalled over Mao. Ando's fall 2009 grand prix wins, and even one of her fall 2010 wins over Suzuki had some complaints at the time too.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well Kim's program was inspiring but she didn't skate it well that night. Ando had no program but just went through the motions like doing a run-through on practice ice when another skater's music was playing.

    Kostner really deserved the highest PCS of the night.
     
  3. munow

    munow New Member

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    I've just watched Kostner's LP again and she was even more shaky than Kim was. With placing 6th in the short and low technical content in both segments she wouldn't place above Kim or Ando anyway.

    I would've given Kim 64-65, Kostner 61-62 and Ando 58-60 respectively.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Those PCS sound exactly right and would have seen Ando lose the title to Kim (as most believe she should have, aka one of her controversial wins-medals). Had Ando done her 4CC performances it would have been good enough to deserve beating a lackluster Kim, but she didnt.
     
  5. torren

    torren New Member

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    Miki barely lost to kim on PCS by 1 in SP, and 2 in FS. Although kim's programs were not better than her.
    Miki Ando FShttp://youtu.be/ZD_AtQv9ub4
    Yuna kim FShttp://youtu.be/bHqwxLU4mIc

    I don't know why she chose traditional music of her country which is really internationally unknown. First of all, music choice was bad, unfamiliar.. I(And maybe many figuer skating fans....) don't like transitions and musics of that program. In particular, humming was weird
    Let's compare... At any point, kim's was better?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    There is more to the PCS than programs. There is basic skating skills, interpretation, performance. Kim even on her worst day is far superior to Ando and her clunky two foot skating in all of those. As another poster said Ando could be skating to anyones music when she performs, it makes no difference. Looking at the protocals I see Ando actually had higher PCS than Kostner in both programs at those Worlds. A huge ROTFL to that. So much for Kostner being the more held up or overscored one.
     
  7. torren

    torren New Member

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    So you admitted that Miki's programs were better than kim's in artistically, right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  8. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Although im a huge Kostner fan. Atm i believe Ando to have had the better career. However after this next season and OLYMPICS i will hopefully feel different.
     
  9. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    you're joking right?? her arirang/homage to korea is probably the most underrated LP of yuna. what do you mean about "many many figure skating fans that the program is bad? many fans even her doubters considered it as probably her best lp since the lark ascending. and if she was just committed into this and skated clean it would have been the best LP in her career and she only lost by 1 point..
     
  10. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Uh big fat YES Kim's programs are certainly better than Ando's programs by a planet. Artistically challenging, risk taking, original, authentic, meaningful, emotional and intellectually moving than anything Ando/Morozov has ever produced. 2+ years on, I am still gutted at the biased marking and frosty crowd reception at the rink (Or that Yuna was snubbed out of the official world championship booklet published by Japan/Russia/ISU).

    It is a joke Ando's PCS climbed massive 14 points in the same season for exactly the same program year before with just better packaging doing back to back jumps and basic strokes with her Morozovian cookie cutter program of simple segmentation routines and massive number crunching, and the judges ate it up like their favourite M&Ms Tsunami flavoured. The FS technical content is also inferior to her 4CCs. Ironically I have always felt had Mao been doing better that season, Yuna could have won. Also had there been better judging and more favourable crowd reception in Russia, there might have been 3 spots for the Russian ladies today for Sochi and no Yuna for 2013, 2014.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  11. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure Ando gained as much as fourteen points on PCS in the same season? It would be unheard of.:rolleyes:
     
  12. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    It is sad that this is the 1st placed LP beating two very beautiful LPs(Kim's Arirang & Kostner's Afternoon of a Faun).
    If I were a judge, I would rank like this...

    1. Yuna LP (3-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)
    2. Caro LP (2-3, 5 triples, 0 3Lz, 1 3F)
    3. Miki LP (no 3-3, no 2-3, 5 triples, 2 3Lz, 0 3F)

    Judges at the Worlds treated Miki as if being a skater who has OGM reputation
    or a currentCaro-like skater who could gain high scores even without 3-3 & 6,7 triples. LOL.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Strange to see all these comments about Andos win at the 2011 Worlds when according to a couple posters one of her supposed advantages is none of her success is at all controversial, lol!
     
  14. torren

    torren New Member

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    ok I will accept to some degree

    But maybe judges were more favorable to Ando reasonably because she was the best skater of that season. (kim had OGM last year? no matter)
    and punish yuna kim who doesn't participate in competitions in that season before World championship.

    Anyway It seems it is yuna kim's fault. If she competed in GPs, kim could have won, but regrettably she didn't :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  15. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    What I meant was total GOEs increase by 14.36 points from Cup of China to 4CCs, the PCS actually wentup 12.12 by the time of WC from beginning of the season even with 1 visible error and lessen BV content than her best performance at 4CCs, where Miki had the 2nd highest ladies FS ever in ISU history; without a 3:3 and benefited from nice momentum inflation to have resulted even higher score than Mao's amazing FS skate at WC 2010 with 2 triple axels.

    I went back to revisit the stats just to be precise.

    Miki Ando@ beginning of the season

    Coc 2010 SP
    TES 27.99 (Base value 27.50, GOEs 0.49)
    PCS 28.12

    Coc 2010 FS
    TES 60.56 (Base value 54.69, GOE 5.81)
    PCS 55.60


    4CCs 2011
    SP
    TES 35.69 (Base value 28.40, GOEs 7.29)
    PCS 30.89

    FS (Clean, 2nd highest FS ever recorded under ISU Ladies)
    TES 73.03 (Base Value 59.66. GOEs 13.37)
    PCS 61.73

    Total GOE diff from 6.3 to 20.66 = +14.36 climb
    Total PCS diff 83.72 to 92.62 = +8.9 climb



    World championship 2011
    SP
    TES 34.20 (BV 28.70, GOEs 5.5)
    PCS 31.38 ( + 3.26 CoC, +0.49 4CCs)


    FS (One major error)
    TES 65.75 (BV 56.69 [less BV than 4CCs], GOEs 9.06 [+3.25 Coc, -5.3 4CCs])
    PCS 64.46 (+ 8.86 Coc, + 2.73 4Ccs)

    Total PCS diff is actually 12.12 between CoC (83.72) to WC (95.84) despite less BV content compare to the 4CCs where Miki went clean.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  16. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    heh.. well yuna won this year's worlds without participating at the grand prix.. :p so.. who cares? :p

    anyway.. who has a better career? ando or kostner. it's a toss up. but after next year both will retire and i think kostner will have a better career overall..
     
  17. torren

    torren New Member

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    They are not same case at all.
    At 2011 wc, kim and miki were so close. So It was so depend on judges mind. I don't think kim would feel it as unfair or :wuzrobbed
    I understand who can think kim was winner... but not that sure. They were very close, kim was not clearly winner like wc this year, reasonably judges were favorable to Ando.
    about 2013 World, She was overwhelming winner. She had two clean program while her competitiors make mistakes. So like in this case she could be a winner clearly. But many said she was underscored in SP since she came back after 2 years, not participate at GPs. And after she wins SP, judges reward her positively in FS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  18. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    It depends if you value an overall very well balanced record with lots of good medals, or 2 World titles instead of 1 but a weak career in most other ways. It is hard to say which is more valued, but many years from now it might be 2 World titles vs 1 World title looks like the better career even with the dozens of other things Kostner has achieved better. Then again some might see Kostner medalling at Worlds almost every year, and winning as many European titles as people like Witt and Henie and think that is amazing too, and not know how weak the European field was when she dominated.

    Kostner could put the argument to rest in Sochi if she does well anyway, but right now it is mostly preference and what one values in a good career.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    With an Olympic medal now I would give the edge firmly to Kostner. 1 extra World title cant compensate for multiple more world medals, a grand prix final title and medals, and now an Olympic medal all together. Kostner just has had by far the more complete and rounded career, although both have had excellent ones.
     
  20. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Kostners Olympic bronze now puts her ahead in this comparison I think. Especially since her bronze medal performance was so impressive and against a very tough field. Whereas Mikis best Oly result is 5th against a weaker field. Another thing in Kostners favor is she has been successful for longer than MIki. Kostner has 5 world medals over 8 years whereas Miki had 3 medals in 5 years. Well, if Carolina wins in Saitama, it will settle the question for sure.
     
  21. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Kostner is indisputably ahead of Ando, especially because she skated incredibly well the past couple seasons, and her performances at Sochi made a very strong case for the gold.
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kostner was definitely robbed in Sochi. She should have beaten atleast one, if not both, Kim and Sotnikova. That should be factored in as well when evaluating her career. Andos 2nd World title was also questionable at best, and while it wasnt a glaring controversy there are probably more people who think she shouldnt have won it than think she should have.
     
  23. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    If u had asked this question in 2011 I would say miki.

    But 2014 it's kostner for sure
     
  24. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Even discounting the number of times she was glaringly robbed in her career, Kostner has the edge on Ando in all competitions besides worlds and even at worlds she has 5 or 6 medals to only 3 for Ando. Kostner easily. Ando didnt even deserve atleast one, and maybe both, of her world titles if they were fairly marked competitions anyway.
     
  25. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    When was Kostner ever robbed, other than at Sochi? The only other possible case is 2010 Worlds, but there it's due to URs and not underscoring?
     
  26. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Active Member

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    Plus Kostner's results at the Olympics.
     
  27. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if Kostner would have had the same amount of success had Ando competed in competitive form following her Worlds win in 2011. That said, Kostner's career in the past four seasons has been incredibly impressive and IMO, she has had the better career.

    If Kostner wins another Worlds, then I think that'll just make it more obvious that Kostner had the better career (even if Adelina and Kim aren't competing) because the rest of the field is capable of high TES, high PCS, or both.
     
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Ando has never skated at the level Kostner did at the Olympics, and even Kostner only won the bronze. So I cant forsee Ando even remaining in competitive form taking away Kostner's Olympic medal.
     
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I disagree, but I love Miki's 2007 Worlds performance. Although I am really growing to appreciate Kostner, and did enjoy her skating from the Olympics.

    2007 Worlds was the year Miki was really going for the 3Lz/3Lp, and she probably would have benefited from the current rules.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJcbAvphGpk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aK02CsBwDE
     
  30. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Ando never had the whole package. In 2007 she hit her jumping peak but didnt have the artistry. In 2011 she had improved her spins and presentation but didnt have great difficulty in her jumps anymore.