Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by bartek, Aug 11, 2011.
This particular meltdown was blamed on exhaustion after the Olympics...
Yes but that's assuming that Kimmie and Sarah were equal skaters. I don't think so... Sarah was much stronger. The most surprising thing was that Kwan melted, not that Sarah did well. It is definitely shocking that Kimmie won that worlds, *however* the two competitions with Kimmie and Sarah cannot really be compared (other than the underdog won.) Because 02 had a strong field and 06 had a very weak field.
I agree that the most surprising thing about the 2002 Olympics was that Kwan and Slutskaya skated well below their standard. I remember thinking that Sarah Hughes gave a great bronze medal performance right after she had skated in SLC thinking that Kwan and Slutskaya were going to duke it out a la 2001 Worlds.
Thanks so much for posting those, but I must say that about halfway through all those toe axels started to make me itchy. So much bad technique over and over again makes me uncomfortable.
I'd have to go back to the protocols, but compared to the mistakes in Torino, Sasha Cohen's mistakes in the Calgary Worlds LP were more costly (in points) than at the Olympics.
I think 3F+COMBO might have not even existed back then if you didn't even attempt a combination for the repeated triple attempt (so perhaps invalid element?). There was also an omission of the 3 salchow at the back end of the 3-3 sequence. Considering there were two other errors in the program, I'm thinking that Sasha could have gotten away with 1-2 errors and still won Worlds that year....but she didn't.
I pointed out her a terrible 'Lip-jump' actually.
Yes, she tried to do two kinds of triple-triple combination in competition.
But, her 3Lutz-3toe & 3F-3toe is totally the same.
I actually felt bad for her in the 07/08 season. She spent the summer practicing a 3f/3r combo but that season was when the ISU debuted the "e" mark for edge problems. Until that point, the ISU had never made any noise about "lip" jumps and I think it was a shock for her to start getting negative GOE on a jump she had been doing for years. It also rendered her hard work on the new combo totally useless when you factor in the "e" coupled with the ever present risk of a downgrade on a loop combo.
Great video. Kimmie also landed a 3z/3t at junior worlds on 04 and I'm sure the video is in fsvids. I remember seeing three videos of Kimmie practicing 3f/3r. One was a local news special where the reporter called it "the hardest jump in the WORLD!" :lol They also showed a clip of her practicing it at a pro event (or maybe SOI) during a fluff piece. You can also see a faulty attempt on the NBC feed in the warm-up before her LP at Nationals. These were all in the 07/08 season.
All of this talk about jumps reminded me of something I did about two years ago...
It was a general assumption that Sasha Cohen never got through a major competition without at least one mistake. I decided to find some solid facts on that once and for all. I compiled a list of all of Sasha's jumps at major competitions (ie. nationals, worlds, olympics) and started crunching some numbers. I did percentages on her best jump, worst jumps, how often she made mistakes and where the first one usually occurred. I was right about some stuff but was surprised with some of the stuff I found.
It was a long post so I won't re-post the whole thing, but you can check it out here: http://mkforum.net/forum/showthread.php?22756-Sasha-Cohen-s-Jump-Stats-Just-the-Facts...&highlight=
It took me several days of watching videos, organizing data and then crunching it all down...but I gotta admit, it was a lot of fun. I said I'd do other skaters statistics at some point once I find the time.
Nice work!! Very interesting, even though it's very OT
That is a really interesting analysis! Do you have a link to MK stats that were promised at the end of the Sasha post? That could be even more interesting!
I know! But I figured since we were talking about Kimmie's 2006 win and what a shock it was/wasn't against Sasha, I figured it was worth mentioning...I'm a bit random like that at times.
Burritos are very good...see what I mean?
Errm...no I never did those MK stats. It took me three or four days to do all of Sasha's stats and like I said, I'd be dealing with 10+ years of major competitions were I to do the Kween's jump stats. I don't have as much free time as I did back then, but it's something that I'll try to keep in mind for a rainy day.
That's amazing, Kwanatic. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Very impressive. It's funny how Cohen never skated a clean competition in a major, but averaged 5 triples throughout. It's no wonder she always made the podium. Her 3toe I think was her worst jump. She had the tendency to overrotate it, and sometimes her falls on it were spectacular.
Would have been interesting to include Sasha's 2010 FS... no doubt the worst ever. But why kick her when she's down? A couple things I find amazing 1) she never did a clean LP - so her reputation is correct; and 2) she never popped - at least she always tried to rotate, even if there was a fall or one of her many wonky, creative two-foot landings.
Which reminds me of a story... I went to see my doctor and told her I was a skater. She said "Ah, you know who I like? That Sasha girl. But her problem is she's too flexible, like Gumby. Her legs just split instead of holding up her landings."
Well, but this included only Nats, Worlds and Olys. Sasha had three clean FS's in her life: Worlds 2003 and 2004 QR's and Marshall's Challenge 2004. All were spectacular. Sasha really could be totally amazing and probably the best skater if she only could land all her jumps. With her line, posture, perfect positions, spirals, spins, wonderful artistry and grace... Scott Hamilton once said during Olympic Ice that Sasha is one of the most beautiful skaters to ever grace the ice. In case of popping, I like it more when a skater try to do all rotations like Sasha than pop a jump. The only time I remember Sasha popping a jump was Campbell's 2004 when she popped triple loop into a single.
Here's my video with her attempts at triple-triples and quad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiHedeIKkyw
I'll upload new version because I found two new 3Lz+3T's: Worlds 2002 and Trophee Lalique 2002.
I dunno, for some reason I always found Cohen to be overrated.
She had some fire and spark when she was younger but that disappeared and she always seemed tentative and timid. Sort of like how Nagasu is now.
I can't find videos of the 2003-2004 QRs, but not surprising that she was clean there and Marshalls because none of those are one of "the big ones." QR is important but it's not SP or LP. Her Marshalls was amazing. The really nutty thing about that competition is that she came in third (something that should probably be discussed in the "worst judged competitions" thread). That program in 2010 would have given Yuna a run for her money.
One thing about Sasha though is when she made a mistake in the LP she kept fighting and landing her jumps and that's why she was on so many podiums. Mirai needs to watch some clips of Sasha and see that you don 't quit when you make a mistake.
Yes, but I am not sure if it's a good comparison. For one thing, while you see Nagasu as tentative and timid, a lot of people rave about her skating and think she is simply amazing.
Well, Nagasu is that way when she skates not to lose. She CAN be a great skater as we saw at 2010 Nats and Olys. Too bad she has not risen to that level of competitiveness since...
Sasha actually had a spectacular win with this program at Marshall's 2004. She got a couple of 6's for presentation and beat world champion Shizuka (it was one month after 2004 Worlds) even though she ladned a triple-triple. Michelle made many mistakes in her routine to Tosca and finished third. It was really an interesting competition. Miki Ando was there as well and landed two triple-triples and had a brave attempt at her quad salchow (she had clean landing but three quarters of a cheat on it).
I find her overrated also, but "tentative" is not a word I would use to describe Ms. Cohen! Just looking at kwanatic's data and seeing that she never popped a jump at nationals, olympics, or worlds is a testament to how aggressive she was.
I thought Mirai was exceptional in her 2011 Nationals SP and her 2011 4CC FS. Put those two performances together and you have a world medalist. Or in this year's case, a world champion.
Now this makes more sense. I see now that there were two Marshalls events for 2004 - the World Cup of Figure Skating where 1st - Irina, 2nd - Kwan, 3rd - Cohen. Then the World Skating Challenge where Sasha won. Confusing!
I remembered that popped jump. I always found it strange that she never bailed out of a jump. Most skaters say you know from the moment you take off whether or not you're going to land. I often wonder whether or not Sasha's scores might have been better if popped a jump rather than falling. Back then deductions for falls were pretty steep, not to mention the impression it leaves on a program. I always felt it was better to stay on your feet than your ass...I admired her commitment to doing the jumps, but I wonder if that was always wise...
Sasha should have been a national and world champion several times over; she just couldn't ever put it on the line when it counted. So many times she had a gold medal on a platter in front of her, and damn near every time she tripped and knocked it over. I found her to be ridiculously exasperating to cheer for. I just couldn't do it. I feel/felt the same way about Alissa's skating--super gorgeous skater who just couldn't pull it together. Alissa's made changes in the last year, but we'll have to see if they stick.
I wouldn't compare Mirai to Sasha just yet, though she does appear to be heading in that direction. Mirai still has time to turn herself around...Sasha never managed to do that...
While doing all triple-triples videos I learnd about all those events for TV. Campbell's International Figure Skating Challange always opened the season and Marshall's World Skating Challenge was always after Worlds ending the season. There were four Campbell's from 2002 to 2004. Marshall's was held from 2004 to 2005. Sometimes there were also another events. In December of 2004 there was Marshall's World Cup won by Irina with great 6 triples programs. Sasha had there probably her worst FS ever with 3 or 4 falls, don't remember exactly. Sasha won Marshall's World Skating Challenge 2004 which ended season 2003-2004. She also won season opening Campbells this season. At the end of 2002-2003 season, after Michelle won her last Worlds there was ABC International Skating Challenge. Event with exactly the same name was also held in December of 2003, which was quite confusing for me when I was making Sasha video. After Campbell's 2002 there was also Crest Whitestripes International Skating Challenge won by Sasha with spectacular Rachmaninoff program, seven triples and only one mistake at 3Lz+3T. She landed there also gorgeous 3T+half loop+3S. Oh, and there was also Campbell's Cup at the biginning of 2006-2007 season with match-up between Kimmie Meissner and Mao Asada. Sorry for the big OT.
I still think Sasha's 04 Marshall's (the one she won) could have battled Yuna in Vancouver. Yuna had a 3/3 but her lines don't compare to Sasha. That could have made the competition really close.
I totally agree
I agree, but when you factor in the sp, there is no way that Cohen could come close to Kim with a flutz and no 3/3. The judges don't seem to be very concerned with leg-line when handing out GOE to Kim on spins and spirals rolleyes so I doubt Sasha would have much of a leg up in those areas (no pun intended).
Irina was spectacular at the World Skating Challenge after Worlds (she was ill at the time) and should've placed above Kwan there too.
Back to the topic at hand. Cohen worked COP in it's early years. Edge calls were far more lenient and she would rack up points with her spectacular spirals and spins. She was also getting (and deserving, particularly for "Malaguena") 9s for PCS.
A clean Cohen would've been in the hunt for the bronze and possibly silver in Vancouver, but had Rochette skated cleanly, I think she would've beaten Cohen (7 triples and 2 double Axels).
With one less spin and a flat value for spirals in the latest rules, Cohen would've lost even more tricks in her arsenal (even Czisny's spiral is not as impressive as it was before).
Still, I give Cohen credit for staging a comeback.
...but we all know that "clean Cohen" is virtually an oxymoron
how about the usual Cohen? Not the shadow of her we saw at Nats, but...she would not have gotten any medal. Hell, Nagasu went clean and got no medal (I really think she deserved bronze, but that's another subject)..
Maybe, but judges are concerned with edges. And in that way, Sasha Cohen can't be compared to Yu-Na Kim.
Back to the topic, I'm surprised at how good Kimmie's attempts at 2006 Worlds look.
This is a good news.
Kimmie's 2006 worlds victory was totally her crowning moment. Not long after that her body began to change and, like so many other ladies, she wasn't able to adapt. Her jumps went south quickly and she ended up withdrawing from nationals and never came back. It was really sad watching her; the rotation on her jumps was awful, to the point she was landing them more than half a turn short.
I disagree completely. Sasha doesn't necessarily have the best edges while stroking, but when she hits an inside edge on her camel spin on a good day, it's gorgeous and better than anything Yuna can manage. Yuna's spiral is faster, but the edges are not as deep or as steady as Sasha's IMO.
For the record, I prefer Yuna to Sasha by miles, so defending Sasha here feels strange for me
My point with pitting Sasha against Yuna was not to compare the programs (Marshalls vs. Oly FS) but the skaters themselves at their best. In 04 nobody cared about incorrect edges, so it's likely that Sasha would have fixed this if she had competed this same program in 10. My point was that both skaters, at their best, were very similar, not picking apart a lutz edge or an extra jumping pass, because what Yuna has over Sasha there, Sasha has over Yuna with positioning and flexibility. Sasha barely competed under COP so it's not really fair to judge those COP areas for deductions against Yuna's experience. I'm talking, raw talent vs. raw talent, and in that they are very similar.
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