Kim Yu-Na - the greatest of all time if she wins 2014 Olympics & Worlds?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, May 1, 2013.

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Kim Yu-Na - the greatest of all time if she wins 2014 Olympics & Worlds?

Poll closed Jun 1, 2013.
  1. Yes

    50 vote(s)
    52.6%
  2. No

    43 vote(s)
    45.3%
  3. Don't Know

    2 vote(s)
    2.1%
  1. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    One thing cannot be argued I believe and thats Kwans consistency. I don't think GP events really mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Witt, Manley, Thomas etc rarely competed in them anyway. The first GP event wasn't until 1973 with Skate Canada, and the GP final in 1996. When Kim came along both of these events had been around for at least 10 years, so comparing GP's doesn't really hold merit against the older skaters. I don't think we can truly place Kims final legacy until she retires (which is presumably after Sochi).
     
  2. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    What a way to twist facts! Drop Kwan's first two Worlds (94/95) to make her stats look much better than Kim's! :rolleyes: For the record, she won 5 out of 12 attempts, a lot closer to Kim's 1/3. How about this, Yuna is 1/1 for Olympic gold while Kwan was 0 for 2? In less than a year she could even be 2/2 for Olympic gold!

    This is silly. Medal counts are only part of the consideration. The competition one faces, the demands of the sport, the pressure one faces, the trials/difficulties one encounters, these too, are factors. Yuna came from South Korea, not from a country with a long line of great skaters like Michelle. South Korea had no true figure skating rinks, no world-class trainers/coaches, and a federation who provided very little financial/political support. Yuna competed under the exacting, rigorous demands of IJS/CoP, not 6.0. She faced just as tough if not tougher competition in the likes of Mao Asada, Miki Ando, and Carolina Kostner. She faced pressured like no other from her country--being the overwhelming favorite to win the OGM--which she did with the Skate of Her Life. (Only Midori Ito at the 1992 Olympics could compare.)
     
  3. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    :confused: You don't consider Yu-Na's LP performance at 2007 Worlds, LP performance at the 2009 Skate America, and SP performance at 2010 Worlds as bad meltdowns? She actually lost to Rachael Flatt in the LP phase of the 2009 Skate America. She finished in 7th place in the SP at 2010 Worlds, missing the final group of the LP. She dropped from 1st after the SP to 4th in the LP at 2007 Worlds, and took bronze.

    Kwan has skated more clean programs than Yu-Na; I do know that for a fact.

    It is silly to compare Kwan and Kim though. They never competed against one another and they are from two very different generations and judging systems. I believe had Yu-Na ever competed against Tara and Michelle, she would have been penalized or viewed unfavorably by judges for not attempting the 3loop while the other two attempted the full arsenal of triples minus the Axel. You didn't see many top ladies under the 6.0 system omit one or two of the basic 5 triples that ladies are known to do the way you see happen under COP. Rochette was definitely the exception to the rule. On the same token, Tara and Michelle's spins would never have received the required levels needed to be competitive against Yu-Na and the others in the COP system.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  4. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Isn't this the second poll in several months!

    I am getting beaten down to where I will vote yes to make the question go away.

    I of course voted no! ;)
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  5. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Of course you voted no. Because you're a Maobot. Nice try for being bias. :rolleyes:

    Assuming Yuna will win more World titles and OGM, I bet she will never be the greatest in your eyes and others.

    I'm just happy that she proved to her haters that she can still win a major title after being absence for almost 2 years without a high profile coach, without a strong fed while kicking some as*. I can't stop laughing @ you and her haters when she won in Canada. It must be hard to swallow. :p

    As for this poll, I did not even vote. Because there's no such thing as the greatest.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  6. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    One big difference between Kwan and Kim is a clean Kim is unbeatable. In fact even a good Kim is unbeatable, not just a clean one. She has to skate really awful to lose, like she did in the last 4 Worlds she lost. Kwan can skate very well, even cleanly sometimes, and still potentially lose to any of Lipinski, Cohen, Slutskaya, Chen, Butyrskaya, but Kim cannot skate even decently and lose ever since she is too good to not be given the win unless she bombs.
     
  7. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Kim from Vancouver would have crushed both Kwan and Lipinski from Nagano so who cares about debates of who should have won there in a comparision to Kim. The amazing thing is Lipinski and Kwan still might be the 2nd and 3rd best Olympic performances ever, which just shows the huge margin by which Kim is best.
     
  8. maladiegrande

    maladiegrande New Member

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    Yes but under COP. Under 6.0 clean programs with a complete arsenal of triples were both very important. Also, as Query5 pointed out, the way 6.0 was structured made it so that someone who bombed the short could ruin their chances at a title. Skaters had to place in the top 3 in the sp to control their own destiny. Based on those rules alone, Yuna already loses 2 of her world medals (08 and 010)

    And it also shows the huge margin by which Dorothy Hamill was "best" compared to Henie despite having no triples and Henie having 3 Olympic golds.
    Oh wait...
     
  9. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    I dont see your point. I am not speaking about when Kwan skates badly which you seem to be referring. I am pointing out has the possability to skate very well, sometimes even mistake fre, and still lose to numerous skaters. Kim cant ever skate somewhat decent and lose. Just look at the events she lost and you will see my point.


    Hamill IS a way better skater than Henie. It is pretty well known Henie wasnt even the top skater of her own era, and relied on corrupt judging and a rich father who bought out her wins. Cecelia Colledge, Madge Syers, even Maribel Vinson, all added way more to womens skating than Henie did.

    Anyway your point is moot as Hamill and Henie are a half century apart.
     
  10. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Kim also doesnt lose a medal at the 2008 and 2010 Worlds as you claimed. You can place 5th or even 7th in the short and if you skate the best long, and she was judged to have the best long both times, you will still medal. Even 2010 if she were placed say 7th in the short and 2nd (instead of 1st under COP) in the long, with the way the event folded out there is a good chance she would have still been 2nd overall or atleast 3rd. Your point only applies to the gold medal, and Kim didnt win the gold medal either time, so again your point is no point.
     
  11. maladiegrande

    maladiegrande New Member

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    For some reason I thought you were theoretically comparing Kwan and Kim under 6.0...lol

    I was being ironic in my post. And you know I just chose a random old skater right? I could have chosen any number of Olympic-World champions who are an era away from Henie or any of the "most-decorated lot". My point was it's a given that a skater from a later generation (as early as a decade away) will be far more technically proficient since that's how sports work. You said my point was moot because they're a "half century apart"...but you missed my point exactly
     
  12. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    2010 and 1998 is not THAT different. Heck some of the exact same skaters who were around in 1998 still are in 2010 (Plushenko, Suguri, etc...) You are blind comparing 50 years apart to just about 10 and making it out to be the same thing. The only big difference is COP demands, but even under 6.0 Kim would easily beat Tara. The only reason Tara could beat Michelle is Michelle is a slow skater which contrasts to Tara's speed, and Tara's very hard 3-3 combos vs Michelle not doing any at that particular event, despite that Michelle is better in every other way. However Kim did as many or more hard combinations as Tara there, has way bigger and higher quality jumps with better technique, stronger in all other elements than Tara, stronger presentation than Tara, and is just as fast, so it would be a blowout between the two under either 6.0 or COP. When people say Kim's Olympic performance is by far the best ever for a women they are considering the time frame. People still call Boitano's the best Olympic performance ever by a man, despite that it would be crushed in a head to head by Yagudin of 2002 and even Plushenko of 2006 if we make no considerations to the time frame.
     
  13. maladiegrande

    maladiegrande New Member

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    When exactly did I say 10 vs 50 years was the same thing? "Would you please stop to tell a lie", P?. :slinkaway
    My repeated comments about not comparing skaters from different eras was NOT made in regards to Kwan vs Kim, to begin with, I never put Kwan ahead of Kim in terms of overall rankings, in earlier pages I was responding to specific claims about their skating and I was doing the same on this page. On the other hand, my statements about comparing skaters from different ages had to do with people dismissing earlier skaters when they declared Kim as the greatest of all time.

    I quote myself:

     
  14. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Well my comments were just about who should have won the Olympics between Kwan and Lipinski really means nothing as Kim from 2010 would beat both, and yes they are easily close enough in time to compare. Hardly a comment that degrades every skater in history, or implies any of the BS nonsense you are implying. You are quite a pain in the ass, welcome to my ignore list.
     
  15. maladiegrande

    maladiegrande New Member

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    Drama queen alert.

    My post never implied that you were degrading "every skater in history" by declaring that Yuna would've beaten Tara and Michelle. I was objecting to the idea of claiming Yuna as the unrefuted "greatest of all time" by dismissing the older champions (especially those decades removed from current competition). That's why I even brought up older skaters like Henie, Hamill, Heiss. If you read my earlier posts I made it clear I don't think Kwan even deserves to be placed above Kim in the overall rankings. I had simply misinterpreted your first post as comparing them theoretically under 6.0
     
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Ten years is a big difference in terms of developing one's skating. Let's see, when Michelle Kwan made her World Championship debut in 1994, Kim was four years old. Let's not forget training and developing for 6.0 v. COP and what elements are more emphasized. Let's also talk about the top skaters in an era set the standard for which new skaters have to beat. I'm sure Kwan's artistry and consistent level of skating 7-triple programs along with the likes of Tara, Irina, and Tonya and Midori before them gave coaches a sort of direction as to how to develop their skaters to make them competitive. Of course, none of that makes a difference, right?

    Skating has changed substantially. That's like comparing the difficulty of gymnastics in 1996 to that of 2008, and saying that obviously Shawn Johnson is better than the likes of Shannon Miller and Lilia Podkopayeva. If any gym fan said that, you'd get a huge push-back from many fans in the sport.

    Anyway, I'm just saying that you have to look at the sport in the context of their era because otherwise, young skaters will always have an advantage over older ones who may have help established the sport to what it is today.
     
  17. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Best at the Olympics. But if Yu Na could place below Miki Ando (twice) and Carolina Kostner, there can be no doubt that Michelle could have beaten her at Worlds on more than one occasion. In fact, I would put Michelle's Red Violin LP at 2000 World's above Yu Na's Vancouver and her 2013 World's performances--7 triples vs. 6; full set of triples (except axel) vs. no 3-loop; superior artistry.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  18. torren

    torren New Member

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    kim Yuna didn't get second OGM yet... And why we should pick "the best" objectively?
    It is very subjective problem... For example, for me mao is the best of all time.
     
  19. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Yu Na only placed below Kostner at Worlds on one occasion, and it was a scandalous result. Michelle Kwan has even lost handily to Maria Butyrskaya at Worlds, and if Maria had landed 1 more triple salchow at the 2000 Worlds would have lost to her at Worlds 2 years in a row! Maria is a poor skater, and a much worse skater than Ando and Kostner. Ando is one of the best female jumpers of all time so your dismissing her like she is nothing is funny. Michelle also lost to Kostner at Worlds, yes not in her prime but Kostner was nowhere nears her either.

    Irina Slutskaya only beat Michelle at Worlds 2 of the 7 times they met, but took judges off her at 5 of 7, and Irina has extremely weak artistry, barely ever does 3-3s, and almost never skates clean competitions. She also has a 3-2 record vs her at the Grand Prix final, and decent overall head to head. In the case you pass off Ando like she is nothing than Irina should be too, as she is essentialy the last decades version of Ando, great jumps, some other decent elements, spunk and energy, and not much else, and no polish and style. Michelle though had tons more trouble with Irina than Yu Na ever had with Miki. 14-15 year old Tara Lipinski beat Michelle 4 of 5 meetings including their lone meeting at Worlds during Tara's post 13 year old career.

    So the same you said could be said in reverse, it is obvious Yu Na would have beaten Michelle on multiple occasions at Worlds too.


    As for Kim of Vancouver vs Michelle at the 2000 Worlds, under COP Yu Na would win by over 20 points overall (both programs combined) just as she did in Vancouver. Higher base value due to the much harder combinations, much higher GOEs especialy on the jumps, and a huge short program lead. Then under 6.0 Yu Na would be 1st in the short program and Kwan (who was already only 3rd) would be 4th, and the event would already be over, so no point speculating further to how their LPs would be scored vs each other under COP.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  20. johnny158

    johnny158 New Member

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    Under 6.0, Even Asada could have beaten Kwan easily. Her underrotated jumps and flutz never would have been a problem. Her 3A ,difficult 3-3, superior spins and various steps would have made her a strong champion under 6.0.
    She already proved that in 2005 senior season. She crushed Slutskaya, Arakawa, Cohen that had beaten Kwan previous and that year.

    Most of all, Asada would have been released from mental pressures worrying about executing precise jump technique.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  21. maladiegrande

    maladiegrande New Member

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    If she competed under 6.0 she wouldn't have the same complexity of footwork and spins because IJS changed everything about how skaters trained their elements and structured their programs. Skaters didn't attempt to max out on the difficulty of every element under 6.0 for the sole case of difficulty. Even Sasha Cohen wasn't maxing out on spin levels when she first competed under IJS despite having the potential to, and under 6.0 her spins were even simpler. Mao often received inconsistent levels on spins in earlier years because she didn't hold positions long enough.

    It's one thing to compare skaters who were ahead of their time with certain elements to current skaters, but it's weird to transpose skills and competitions from one judging system to a past one. Without the first one there wouldn't even be the other.

    FYI Carolina Kostner has even better footwork than Mao yet received level 1's for it early on in her career. Assuming Mao would have the same footwork now if she had competed during the 6.0 era is bizarre
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  22. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    If you are talking about when she was at first senior season, in 06-07, I agree.

    But after that season, Asada has been had consistency problem;her 3A's success rate is 31%.. 3-3's does not exceed 50%.
    She could not often cleaner program. I can't remind when she had clean program last. In contrast, Kwan's best feature was the consistency.

    In 6.0 system, skaters need more cleaner/flawless program. It was important to have less mistakes. she is far from it.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  23. poirierpaul

    poirierpaul Member

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    Mao did dominate all the Kwan era skaters in her first Senior season as if they were juniors. The whole Olympics had an asterix around it just because she wasnt there, especialy when Arakawa who she beat like 5 times in a row won the title. However Mao it turns out is not even the best skater of her own generation of skaters, maybe not even 2nd best.
     
  24. johnny158

    johnny158 New Member

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    Her incosistency mostly from her inconfidence about her jump technique under rigorous cop. It is interesting that inconsistency began with more rigorous jump standard in 2008 season. Under that strict jump standard, she cannot believe in her own jumps, which lead to inconsistency.

    Under 6.0, she doesn't need to doubt it.
     
  25. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    I have known differently.

    Many talented Junior skaters lost their form through a period of growth as like her. Now Adelina is such a case.
    she could jumps in the lightness body at a young age, but her technical foundation was poor, her jumps were destroyed while growth.

    Since 08-09 season (07-08 season?), she chose a strict diet to prevent it, instead of fixing the jump. At that time, she was very thin than now.
    Since 10-11 season, She began to fix all the jump technique.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  26. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Yu Na isnt planning on going to the 2014 Worlds or is she. Anyway yes she is best ever if she just wins the 2014 Olympics. She probably already is and doesnt even need to but it will only make it more obvious if she does.
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Mao is an enigma. When she first emerged people thought she was going to become the best skater ever. Yet now she wont even be remembered as the best skater of her own era. She was an amazing prodigy and already way better than Lipinski and Baiul were at the same age. Yet that and a couple years of some artistic improvement (but already technical decline) turned out to be her peak, and she is nowhere near that level in her adult years. So much talent, but bizarre coaching choices, program choices, questionable prioritizing in her skating. She sacrificed all her other jumps away for the triple axel, worked to get them all back, and now is struggling to combine the two. Years also of strange Tarasova programs, and never seems to have fully regarded her light and musical style of earlier years.
     
  28. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Member

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    Is she even going to the 2014 Worlds? I thought she wasnt going. I am confused. Did someone hear the Koreans are going to make her go to the 2014 and 2015 Worlds to help keep spots for Korea, but then let her retire?

    Anyway she isnt best ever since her career pales to Sonja Henie. Henie has 13 World and Olympic titles. Kim only has 3 so far, and at most would probably get to 5 or 6. No comparision as far as I can see there.
     
  29. invierno

    invierno Member

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    Yuna isn't going to 2014 Worlds. She made it clear that Sochi would be her swan song. At least that's how I understood her interviews.
    We all know what happened at 2010 Worlds...

    (.......Oh wait, she got a silver medal. It's not shabby at all result wise... Actually it's great! I meant we all know she wasn't happy to be there.)
     
  30. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013