Jump sequence question

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by MR-FAN, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Hey everyone,

    For those familiar with the new rules for this season, how would the following be scored/judged if someone attempts it:

    3toe-2loop-1/2 loop-2sal?

    would it count for no points?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    No points because it will be called as a 4 jump combo and the max jump combo allowed is 3.
     
  3. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    That's what I thought, thanks!
     
  4. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    I think that would be considered a 4 jump combination and the max allowed is a 3 jump combination.

    New Rule
    I think it would receive zero

    This season Joannie's 3T...1/2Loop...3S is considered a 3 jump combination
     
  5. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought that the first 2 jumps would be counted but the last one would have been left off and the 1/2 loop only counts if it connects another jump.
     
  6. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    That sounds harsh (but may be true). You can't go from the landing of the second jump to 3sal without the half loop. So may be skaters just have to do 3t-0.5loop-3salchow?
     
  7. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    It is true. 3 is the max for jump combination in FS. 2 is the max for SP.

    If a single skater did 3 jump combo in SP, he/she would receive no mark for the illegal element.
     
  8. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The judges would probably have to give it -3 because it doesn't fulfill the requirements. But the technical panel could probably call the first two jumps.

    However any skater who put a 3 jump combo in an SP is an idiot because they should know that rule by the time they start doing an SP.
     
  9. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    They could not. It's an illegal element for FS.
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Jump combination can consist of up to 3 jumps.

    Jump sequence can consist of 2 jumps.
     
  11. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I thoguht Shawn Sawyer got credited with a 3flip half loop 3loop sequence at NHK?
     
  12. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    The difference between a sequence and a combination will never completely register in my mind. Especially because of the post above mine.
     
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    A jump sequence has no listed jumps between the two main jumps. Things like 1/2 flips, mazurkas, falling leafs, waltz jumps, etc.

    Combination the second jump is done immediately after the first jump - nothing in between.

    What was the sequence that Marina Keilman used to do? She had some funky thing with 1/2 dozen little jumps.
     
  14. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

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    So a sequence is something like 3F-3T, while a combination is something like 3T-1/2Lo-3S?

    Did I just mix that up? I always do. I just refer to them all as "jumps."
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Both are combos.

    A 2axel done right after another 2axel is a sequence.
     
  16. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    The 1/2 loop is now recognised as a jump when done in a sequence. But only when it connects another jump after it.
     
  17. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Here are some examples.

    3F-3T: Combination, since there is no step between these two jumps. To avoid a step between two jumps, the second jump should be either T or Lo. Another example would be 3Lz-2T-2Lo.

    2A-2A: Sequence. To do the second 2A, the skater has to insert a step to change the jumping foot. This step gives some breathing room to the skater, so a sequence is considered easier than a combination. Only 80% of the sum of two jump values are credited.

    3T-1/2Lo-3S: In the past, this pattern was considered as a sequence. However, doing 1/2Lo between two jumps is definitely more difficult than inserting a step between two jumps. They changed the rule this year and decided to regard First jump-1/2Lo-Third jump as a combination when they calculate the points.

    What if a skater makes a mistake during a jump/jumps?

    3F with step out - 3T: Is considered as a sequence instead of a combination. Will loose GOE and 20% of the base value.

    3A fall + another 3A try: Some skaters with less experience would try the same jump again when she/he fails the first time. Then the jumps will be considered as a sequence. Since only three combinations or sequences are permitted for a free program (or one for a short program), there is a possibility that this kind of repetition would make the last combination/sequence invalid.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    I think that's a much more interesting 3-jump combination than the 3/2/2' and 2A/2/2's. Very few skaters get any glide between the three jumps.
     
  19. Sedge

    Sedge Active Member

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    I love the rhythm and energy of that jump set from Joannie.

    It went up in value by about 2.2 points as well..moving from 80% to 100%
    Base value 7.48 at Olympics
    Base value 9.68 at Japan Open

    Plus she can now say she has a 3/3.
     
  20. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    That is now a combination (from this season).

    Half-loop is now being called as 1Lo.

    Therefore his sequence was called as a: 3F+1Lo+3Lo+COMBO

    A combination is when a second (or third) jump is performed exactly off the landing edge of the preceding jump.

    Which means that only toe-loops and loops are an option as a second jump in combinations. In order to do any other jump as a second (or third) one, you would need to add some non-listed jumps or steps in-between.

    And if you do add any steps or non-listed jumps between the two jumps, that becomes a jump sequence and not a combination.

    The only exception is what I've written above.

    From this season, ISU has decided that half-loop is going to be called as if it was a single loop. Which in effect means that skaters like Rochette, who do a 3toe/half-loop/3salchow sequence are not going to be penalised for doing so any more (jump sequences are only worth 80% of the combined base jump value).
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  21. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Joannie had success with the 3toe+3toe combination back in 2004-2005. She has also landed 3flip+3toe and 3flip+3Salchow sequences from 2003-2005. The jump combination she has attempted and landed the most is 3toe+1/2loop+3Salchow from 2007-present. She has landed 3Lutz+3toe and 3flip+3toe combinations in competition practices/warm-ups, but has never been credited with it in international competition. I believe she finally got credited for the 3flip+3toe at her Nationals in 2009 in the SP. I'm glad the value of difficulty in her 3toe+1/2loop+3Salchow is finally getting realized. How inconvenient though that these new jump values didn't exist in Vancouver. The difference in value from that pass as a sequence to what it is now as a combination is at the same point margin that she lost the Olympic silver to Mao Asada. No doubt she would have received +GOE for completing it as successfully as she recently did at the Japan Open.
     
  22. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Because it's not considered as a sequence anymore. Now, it's a 3 jumps combo : 3F/1L/3L. ;)
     
  23. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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  24. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Half-loop lands on the inside edge. I think only flips and salchows are allowed as the third jump to call it a 3 jump combo.
     
  25. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember what Shawn actually did. But if the protocol's 1Lo was Shawn's half loop, then it'll be a sequence. Because the 2nd jump (half loop) lands on LBI. The take off of the 3rd jump (3Loop) is on RBO. Shawn would have to put his other foot down to set up for the 3Loop. Because of that extra step down (from left foot to right foot) in between the 2nd and 3rd jumps, it's a sequence.

    That's the same concept for 2A-2A SEQ. The first 2A lands on RBO, the second 2A takes off on LFO. So the step down to change foot from R to L (a choctaw in this case) makes it a sequence.
     
  26. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Sawyer's NHK Trophy FS protocol reads 3F+1Lo+3S+SEQ (9.15 BV) and he received 9.05 points for it. Is the +SEQ part wrong?

    Oh sorry, I missed seeing RFOS' reply above. :eek:
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for calling me out on this but that is so weird!

    HisWeirness found rules explicitly stating that only the first two jumps are going to be called in a jump sequence.

    That's what S/S have been told by their fed tech specialist with regards to their planned 3toe...3toe...2axel sequence.
     
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was that the two highest-valued jumps are called in a jump sequence.
     
  29. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Except that Shawn is a clockwise jumper. We have to exchange L and R.:D
     
  30. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh yes! Thanks for pointing this out. So it would mean that 3F+1Lo+3Lo+SEQ was called but only the values of the flip and the loop were counted. That makes sense now.