Jump Combination Question

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Macassar88, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if this is the right forum section, but I am relatively new to Figure Skating (I used to just watch the Olympics and Worlds occasionally)
    I don't really know much about the specific rules with Jump connections.

    How is a Jump Connection given difficulty? I remember something about adding the two jumps, but is that it? What about having a half loop? Also, how many jumps can be stringed together and still be considered a combination? And what about GOEs?
    Thanks
     
    Lanna and (deleted member) like this.
  2. HisWeirness

    HisWeirness TAT-wannabe

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    Here is a quick reply. Others can give more details.

    How is a Jump Connection given difficulty?
    The IJS (international judging system) assigns each jump a certain number of points. More points = more difficult.

    There are two types of jump series:

    1. Jump Combinations
    In a jump combination the landing foot of a jump is the take off foot of the next jump. A three turn on one foot between the jumps without touching the ice with the free foot (or even with a touch, but no weight transfer) keeps the element in the frame of this definition allowing still to call it a combination (with an error).
    If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called as a jump sequence. However half-loop when used in combinations/sequences is considered as a listed jump with the Value of a Loop. If the first jump of a two-jump-combination fails to be successful and turns out as a “non-listed jump”, the unit will still be considered as a jump combination.

    2. Jump Sequences
    A jump sequence may consist of any number of jumps of any number of revolutions that may be linked by non-listed jumps and/or hops immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee); there can be no turns/steps, crossovers or stroking during the sequence (Turns are three turns, twizzles, brackets, loops, counters, rockers. Steps are toe steps, chasses, mohawks, choctaws, curves with change of edge, cross-rolls). A jump sequence, consisting of only one listed jump together with other non- listed jumps is not considered a jump sequence, but will count as a solo jump.


    I remember something about adding the two jumps, but is that it? And what about GOEs?
    Jump combinations and sequences are evaluated as "one unit".

    Jump combination: the Base Values of the jumps included are added. So, if jump 1 is worth 4 points and jump 2 is worth 2 points the combination gets 6 points. The numerical value of GOE for result calculation is related to the jump with the highest value.

    A jump sequence is evaluated as one unit. The Base Values of the two most difficult jumps included are added. The factor of 0.8 is applied for the sum. Following that the numerical value of GOE for result calculation is related to the one of the two jumps with the highest value.

    What about having a half loop?
    Starting with this season, a half loop in a jump series is considered as a *listed* jump (points equal to a single loop jump) and means that a 3 jump series with a half loop (jump + half loop + jump) is now considered a jump combination and not a jump sequence. Therefore, the full value of the jumps in the combination are used instead of the 0.80 multiplier.


    Also, how many jumps can be stringed together and still be considered a combination?
    3 maximum.

    Singles free skate rules:
    A jump combination may consist of the same or another single, double, triple or quadruple jump. There may be up to three jump combinations or jump sequences in the Free Program. One jump combination could consist of up to three (3) jumps, the other two up to two (2) jumps.
     
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  3. Spinner

    Spinner Where's my book?

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    To this I'd add one wish...

    I wish they'd specify a special value to my fave comination, 1-foot Axel/3 Salchow!
     
  4. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Love this combo too. BTW 1 foor axel is also called a colledge named after Cecilia Colledge.
     
  5. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    I thought this counts as a 1axel-3sal combo, or did they change the rules?
     
  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    It does. So it's worth a little less than 3S+2T combination, although it's undoubtedly harder to do.
     
  7. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    I also have a quick question about a failed attempt for a jump combination. If a competitor has a trouble with landing of the first jump, does a step out, then successfully completes the second jump, how do they calculate points? I know it is called a sequence instead. But I'm not sure if they include the points from the second jump or not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  8. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ It depends. In the SP, if that happens, the second jump counts for no points. For example it could be called a 3 Flip + Combo.

    I believe starting last season that a step out and a jump afterwards doesn't count as a sequence, since it would most likely involved a step in between the two jumps. So the first jump would be counted, but the second jump won't be.
     
  9. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Thank! So they changed the rule. No wonder I got confused.
     
  10. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    His Weirness,
    Thanks for that explanation. It was really helpful.
     
  11. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    They did raise the value of the single axel this past summer. And going by the GOE guidelines, a 1a-3sal should get higher GOE than a 3sal-2toe, all else being constant.

    I'd like to see a 1a (1foot) - 2flip or sal - 3toe. That would be something.
     
  12. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Here's a question, what if a skater dis a double loop, but landed on the other foot and went into a triple flip or sal? As in Triple toe, double loop(landing on the other foot) triple flip/sal. I know it would be considered a three jump combination, but what would they call the jump between the first and third jump?
     
  13. jenlyon60

    jenlyon60 Member

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    That 2nd jump would be a double half-loop.
     
  14. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    How would you do a 1axel into a 3salchow? Doesn't the axel land on the opposite foot? Would you need to change your turning direction on the sal?
     
  15. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    I think they were talking about a 1-foot axel, which lands on the inside edge of the left foot when the jumper is a CCW rotator, just like a half loop. So either a flip or a salchow is allowed as the second jump.

    Before the discussion, I did not know that 1-foot axel was a listed jump.

    I wonder, other than 1-foot axels and half hoops, are there any uncommon jumps which became listed recently?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  16. Spinner

    Spinner Where's my book?

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    I know, but I'm wishing they'd give it a higher value due to its difficulty, hence driving more skaters to try it. I haven't seen one competed since Nicole Bobek at '95 worlds.
     
  17. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    So a Colledge is classed as a single axel? :confused: That makes zero sense to me when it's a completely different jump and to land directly onto a back inside edge and take off immediately into a sal is obviously very difficult to do yet it's worth less points on paper than a triple sal double toe! It's such a shame that great moves like this aren't encouraged more.

    Back in the '70's a few skaters experimented further with one foot jumps in combo's. Robin Cousins used to do amazing combinations using 1.5 flips, one foot double sals etc and Brian Pockar tried a one foot triple sal to double flip as his SP combo when the required jump in the combination was the flip.

    So I have a question for the FSU CoP experts. If a skater attempted a one foot triple sal into triple flip combo (theoretically possible), is there even a classification for it and how would it be marked? Also is there any current recognition of other jumps which have fallen by the wayside such as double inside axels?
     
  18. Spinner

    Spinner Where's my book?

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    ^This! Sometimes I feel we've COP-ed all the originality out of jumping with the fear of wasting an element on something like that listed by floskate.
     
  19. Louis

    Louis Tinami 2012

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    Bobek splatted on hers. I think she did a one foot axel-double salchow in the qualifying round. IIRC, her only successful with this combo was at 1994 Skate America, when she did a one foot axel-triple salchow-double toe combination.

    Krisztina Czako did this combination, I think in 1996, and Emily Hughes also did it as a junior skater. I believe she landed it the year she went to Junior Worlds.
     
  20. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    I thought a 1-foot Axel didn't exist in COP? :confused: Wouldn't it be marked as a 1A<< if someone attempted it?
     
  21. Spinner

    Spinner Where's my book?

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    I know. That's why I said "competed", not "landed". ;) She nailed one beautifully in the LP warmup though.
     
  22. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    ^ It does. It's just a single axel.
     
  23. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    The technical panel handbook explicitly states

    (Listed jump takeoffs only -- walley and "inside axel" are not listed jumps.)

    The exception was the one-revolution jump from a standard loop takeoff landed on the back inside edge of the other foot ("half-loop" or "Euler").

    Before this year, the half-loop was just considered a nonlisted jump in all instances. When used between two other jumps, in turned the element into a jump sequence.

    This year the rules changed so that when connected to other jumps, this jump is now considered a single loop jump and subject to the same rule about Landing on another foot, quoted above, as any other jump, and

    The rules for one-foot axel under IJS, alone or in combination, have never changed. Originally there were no explicit rules about landing on another foot; the current rule, quoted above, has been in place for a few years already.

    Those rules just don't give enough points to this element to make it worth skaters' while to include it in place of a higher value jump that could fill the same slot. Hence no one bothers to use it.


    Leaving the evaluation of quality up to the judges means that if a skater lands on the wrong foot by mistake, the judges can give minuses.

    If the skater lands on the back inside edge of the "opposite" landing foot, with flow, with or without a salchow (or flip) afterward, the judges can give pluses as warranted. Maybe some judges would consider the back inside landing difficult enough that they would give +1 just for just adequate quality.

    But the base value for such a solo jump or combination is probably too low to be an incentive for skaters to choose to learn and include that skill. If the Powers That Be want to encourage it, they'd need to build in an incentive.
     
  24. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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