Judges' Favorites

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Leticia, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. Leticia

    Leticia New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    15
    It seems every season, there are certain skaters, who mysteriously are held up by the judges, and the rules are manipulated to justify their wins.

    How is this "Favorites" created?

    Federation? Sponsers?
  2. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    quality of blades moving across ice? Judges love that
  3. winterone

    winterone Banned Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Messages:
    126
    There is no doubt Jason Brown is a judges favorite. He is very talented and has a bright future in skating. He most definately got the benefit of the doubt at nationals and they made up for his mistakes in the pcs. They couldn't let him slide too far at nationals as JW was around the corner.
  4. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    10,741
    I believe they use the results of the many FSU polls to determine who will be their "Favorites" each season. (FSU really stands for Favorite Skaters Unveiled.) :slinkaway
    IceAlisa, aka_gerbil, taf2002 and 5 others like this.
  5. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,103
    Interesting question, but I think this may belong in the trash can. We are just trying to guess or speculate here.

    IMO judges do have their favorites (they are only human, and this is a subjective sport), but they do have to follow rules so they can go only this far. I do believe the federations influence the marks too.
  6. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    1,473
    Judges Favorites:

    - Patrick Chan
    - Kim Yuna
    - Carolina Kostner
    - Jason Brown
    - Adelina Sotnikova
    - Julia Lipnitskaya
    - Michelle Kwan
  7. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,189
    I know, right? Isn't that weird?
  8. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    4,983
    ;)

    Irina Slutskaya
    Oksana Bauil (eligible days)
    Navka and Kostomarov
    Grishuk and Platov
    Kiira Korpi
    Evgeny Plushenko
    Miki Ando

    This should be fun. :watch:
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    10,741
    It must be some sort of conspiracy! :mad:
  10. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,536
    You would think that it was important stuff like the choice of a costume or whose coach was sleeping with which judge, but apparently it's blades moving across the ice!!!

    Who knew?
  11. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    433
    Darts.

    The judging panel gathers, simultaneously with the skaters' draw for the initial starting order, at a secret non-disclosed location. They take turns drawing numbered darts from a small velvet bag and aiming them at a dartboard in the shape of Sonia Bianchetti's face. The dart that lands closest to her right nostril represents the starting order of the skater who the judging panel will place first. If a dart lands on her right ear, the skater with that starting order will receive questionable < calls; if a dart lands on her left ear, the skater with that starting order will receive benefit-of-the-doubt calls. Because this "judging dart draw" occurs at the same time as the skaters' draw, the judges are unaware of which skater is represented by which dart; therefore, this is considered an unbiased selection procedure untainted by national bias.

    The procedures for pairs and dance are a little different: for pairs, the judge must throw two darts concurrently and the distance between the darts is measured and combined with the distance from Bianchetti's right nostril to determine final placements. For dance, two darts are thrown concurrently and the technical panel assigns a level of difficulty to the toss based on the spiral of the darts in the air, and the rest of the judging panel gives a GOE to the beauty of the toss and a PCS to the timing and rhythm of the toss. This information is fed into a computer program written by some computer company based in Michigan, which in turn spits out the final placement for that event.

    For Synchro... well, let's just say that it can get bloody. :slinkaway
  12. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,235
    Well, they could have. Farris got chalked in PCS at nationals then went on to beat Brown and win silver at JW, nearly taking the title with a huge score. Now granted, his SP at Nationals was a bit of a meltdown, but his FS was not actually that bad, the 65 in PCS just hurt him, as he had been getting higher than that all season in his junior internationals. If he had gotten the PCS that he had been getting internationally at nationals, he would have finished ahead of Jason, Brandon, Max, and Keegan in the FS. Another example is Rippon who got 5 points more in PCS than Miner in the FS at nationals but finished behind Miner, who medaled, at 4CC where they both skated similarly.

    Nationals inflation seems to be conveniently applied to skaters who "need it" because something important is missing from their skating. For Jason, it's the 3a, for Rippon, it's a solid 3a and quad/not being the strongest jumper in general, for Alissa, it's not being a strong jumper, for Rachael in her heyday, it was not being a great spinner or not doing anything with particularly high quality. Skaters like Farris or Miner don't really receive much nationals inflation, they have solid jumps including solid 3as, so they don't need the USFS promoting them a lot to do well internationally because their skills will speak for themselves and if they do well, they will score well on the basis of the strength of their skating.
  13. Braulio

    Braulio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,062
    Plushenko
    Patrick Chan
    Carolina Kostner
    Navka-Kostomarov
    Totmianina-Marinin
    Laura Lepisto
    Amodio
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  14. martyross

    martyross New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    899
    My speculation: it can depend on the nationality of the ISU sponsors. This year, they should be Japan, France, Finland, China and Italy.
    edit, no China
  15. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    13,777
    A lot of the skaters mentioned above are judges' favorites because they actually skate well. Imagine that!

    Think about this - if they weren't better than the norm, why would they have become the judges' favorites? Unless 5Ai3 is right & there is a dartboard in some back room.
  16. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    153
    An interesting fact. ISU has video's for judges to watch showing the ideal and not so ideal to look for and to reward. Sad to say they use current skaters for these demonstrations. Does this sway the eyes of some of the judes? If you know who they use and you see the results never changing - I say absolutley YES!
  17. VALuvsMKwan

    VALuvsMKwan Wandering Goy

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    4,983
    Have we forgotten KONSPIRACY and POLITIK so soon? :sekret: :bloc: :bribe: :puppet: :drama: :blocjudge
  18. jettasian

    jettasian New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Judges have their favourties, that's for sure. But does that equate to judging bias?
  19. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    People, please. Some of you sound like you actually believe the judging is always fair and never subjective :rolleyes:

    Yes, those skaters mentioned do skate well. But so do some others and yet sometimes we feel it's the wrong one on top of the podium. This is when judges play favourites.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,380
    I agree with you.
    But for some skaters, there are objective facts that they are overscored on some PCS. ;)
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  21. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,838
    So then the question is actually "Who are skaters that get held up", not who are judges favorites.
  22. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    Well, of course individual judges have biases and sometimes favorite skaters.

    But that kind of favoritism will vary with the individual judges and they'll cancel each other out.

    When all the judges score a certain skater higher than jump content or artistic appeal to fans would suggest, it's more likely in response to something about the actual skating that may not translate well on video than to all the judges getting together and conspiring to overmark that skater.
  23. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,436
    It works on both sides of the coin - the Technical Elements as well as the Component Scores.

    COP allows judges to have possibly a big influence by applying very positive GOEs for a skater's completed elements (effect multiplied by up to 12-13 in the long program) just as much as applying inflated component marks...
  24. luna_skater

    luna_skater Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,056
    THIS.
  25. Leticia

    Leticia New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    15
    yeah, but can you say that about 2008 world Kostner's second finish, or 2010 world Lepisto's third finish? I heard lots of booing from the crowd who were watching their actrual skating.
  26. Braulio

    Braulio Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    7,062
    Plushenko´s (non-existent) Transitions for example

    :rolleyes:
  27. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,536
    Blades across the ice.

    As has been said time and again on this board, Kostner and Lepistö have some of the best basics of any skaters of the CoP era. Those who were booing may have been watching their jumping instead of their skating. The judges look at both.

    Also, with respect to 2008, much of the booing was due to fans' perception that the fourth-place finisher, Yukari Nagano, had landed a triple axel in the Free Skate. The jump was marked as underrotated.
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  28. geod2

    geod2 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    556
    What you say makes total sense and they cancel each other out the overwhelming majority of the time, and if they don't it isn't noticeable and doesn't really matter.
    But with only 9 judges it's mathematically possible for an imbalance in the bias of the judging panel that isn't cancelled out by others on the same panel to make a difference that is very noticeable to many fans. Someone mentioned Lepisto's bronze at 2010 Worlds. She edged out Miki Ando by 0.8 points for that bronze.
    It doesn't take much non-cancelled out bias for that to have happened (I'm not saying it did happen).

    The main points are still:
    1. Judges are only human not machines.
    2. Their natural, unavoidable bias cancel each other out or don't matter in the overwhelming number of competitions
    3. Some fans have a bias toward remembering only the few times when they think (but have no proof) that judge bias affected the standing/medals/results.
    4. The correct judging of skaters based on the quality of their performances is the norm to such a degree that obsessing about the few exceptions is pointless.
    5. Natural human bias is NOT the same thing as konspiracy.

    -
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  29. DarrellH

    DarrellH New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2007
    Messages:
    4,763
    The Mike Pike?:D
  30. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,603
    Your analysis of the Adam/Ross scenarios make no sense to me.

    Adam was 7th after the sp at 4CC. He barely missed the bronze. And his PCS should have been 5+ over Ross at Nats. I don't see the favoritism.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  31. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    8,775
    :lol:
  32. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,124
    Judges' favouritism aside, I know you're right, but I find it riddiculous considering these girls (Lepisto in particular) don't even look pretty when they skate (by pretty I mean graceful of course, not appearance-wise). I absolutely hate the way Lepisto skates (skated? has she retired or sth?). My point is that I hate the fact CoP is favouring "blades across the ice" over actually doing eye-pleasing things on ice.

    Also, blades matter, but jumps should matter too. I mean, this particular case was a double jump fest from Lepisto. I get she might have nice edges, but for crying out loud, you have to actually be able to land some triples to be a worthy world medalist. At least in my book.
  33. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    2,480

    I didn't realize judges examined a skater's blades and gave them points for that:rofl:
  34. ltnskater

    ltnskater New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Messages:
    601
    Absolutely, if the blades are a little rusty, they get slightly lower GOE. I have seen a skater with neon green tinted blades (well the blades were not green, but the bottom of the boot/skate was, and the metal on the blades reflected that colour, to give the appearance of a greenish tint), that = plus on GOE.

    Did I mention that the sizes and length of blades also go into the scores?
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  35. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,466
    Size matters....
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  36. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2010
    Messages:
    3,538
    But just because they were watching and didn't like the score doesn't mean they understand they rules of the sport.
  37. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    17,987
    Yep after all the responses this one still makes the most sense.
  38. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    6,971
    It's not the size that matters it's how you use them ....:rollin:
    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  39. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,492
    I think 6.0 judging also often favored blades across the ice over eye-pleasing things on ice. And fans whose eyes were pleased by skaters who didn't win were just as inclined to hate that fact as now under IJS.

    But fans at that time were even more inclined to attribute results they disagreed with to politics rather than to a difference in priorities.
  40. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2009
    Messages:
    361
    Judge's favorites are the skaters whose under-rotations and wrong edges aren't called as regularly as other skaters, those who may fall but somehow haven't, and whose pcs is always high regardless of the quality of the actual performance.