Judge throws out 3 of 51 counts against Sandusky

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Fan123, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's fair for those students currently at the school to be punished for Sandusky's crimes. Take away the pensions of the administrators involved and open the doors for the victims to file lawsuits against all who kept quiet. If criminal charges need to be filed against those who remained silent, let it happen.
  2. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that the Freeh report confirmed what was suspected about the culture of Penn State: football was above all else on that campus.

    The only way to change that dangerous culture is to take football down a level. Perspectives would not change if it were business as usual with winning football teams and bowl trips and the possibility of conference titles.

    Our local college football powerhouse was the first team to play Penn State after the scandal broke and Paterno was fired. For a few days before and a few days after, there was all sorts of perspective here about the place of football and priorities and how wins/losses and sports are not all that matters. A week after that game, the team lost badly at Michigan and everything was back to normal with fans ranting about how they had been personally let down by the team losing and the "state of the program" and the competency of players and coaches and winning football games being the single most important thing in the state.

    I guarantee you that opening kickoff at PSU in a month and a half, with no sanctions, would have brought out the same return to a complete lack of perspective on life outside of college football. Go look at their official website today. Nothing about this. But there is a handy countdown to kickoff at the top.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  3. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    :rolleyes:
  4. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    I was quite pleased to see that the current football players are allowed to transfer and be immediately eligible. I hope those who want to can find another school (though scholarships may be tougher to get at this point.)

    Given how touch NCAA sanctions can be for schools that provide extra meals or clothing to athletes, this doesn't seem to be out-of-line given the magnitude of the loss of control.

    Perhaps it will also serve to cause some other schools dominated by the football culture to question whether their institutional control is adequate.
  5. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    I linked in the thread in "Other Sports" the info on transfers. Schools that take PSU players will be allowed extra scholarships and have the number adjusted for next year.
  6. tarotx

    tarotx Well-Known Member

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    I don't think this is harsh penalty at all. The only think that will hurt them will be the money-both the fine and the last of revenue that the football team would bring in these 4 to 6 years.They will be able to get players but definitely not good players but in a couple years that will change because the players will be able to go to post season play in their career. Penn State will probably get a new coach in a couple years and the football team will be fine in a few years.

    Something needed to be done but it won't change anything. People don't want to believe their friends are capable of bad things and football is everything in a lot of places. Those things taken together and there will be more Penn States.
  7. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    That's very good. Has the NCAA ever done that before?
  8. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    Apparently it is standard when sanctions on a program include loss of post-season play.
  9. Twizzler

    Twizzler Well-Known Member

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    Demanding sanctions will do nothing. These sanctions aren't the result of a rape- they are the result of a 14 year cover up by university officials to protect the "good name" of the football program and it's coach. The reputation of the football program over the protection of innocent children.

    While rape is horrific, and one is too many, you can't compare situations IMHO.
    milanessa and (deleted member) like this.
  10. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    ^This.

    If a university engages in a massive cover up of any kind of sexual assault and the athletic department is directly involved, I'm sure the NCAA will react as it did here. However, if a player or coach is a perpetrator, proper legal action is taken, and the university and athletic department respond appropriately as soon as any report is made, sanctions would not be necessary or appropriate.

    Penn State is not being punished because Sandusky molested children. They are being punished for the complete lack of response when they became aware of his actions.
  11. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I am quoting this because it needs to be seen again. Some people don't get it and you worded it so much better than I could have. I will add, though, that is was not just their lack of response but that they covered it up as best they could for YEARS. They responded, just in the worst possible way.
  12. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    You asked which was worse, the enabler or the doer. And these fans you quote are part of the culture of enablement that happens in college sports. So apparently you see a scenario where what they are doing is worse than molesting and raping children.

    I just find that bizarre. Just as two wrongs don't make a right, two wrongs aren't equal because they are both disgusting.

    Well I don't think it's fair either. But then life isn't fair sometimes.
  13. KCC

    KCC Active Member

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    I don't know, something just does not sit right with me and I cannot figure out what it is (and I am from PA)... I keep thinking that this whole scandal is bigger than Penn State and that the school accepted these penalties quickly and completely in order to cover up something larger and more scandalous. No data at all, just a weird feeling. Wish I could shake it. Anyone else feel this way?
  14. CDANN1013

    CDANN1013 Active Member

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    I live in South Central PA plus I am a student at PSU (adult learner) and I have that same feeling that this scandal is a lot bigger than PSU. I believe there are still a lot of unanswered questions.

    Carol
  15. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    What effect will this punishment have on the football players who are at the school now and do not want to transfer to other schools?
  16. CDANN1013

    CDANN1013 Active Member

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    According to the news conference, the players that do decide to stay will be allowed to keep their scholarships, but they must meet certain academic standards.

    Carol
  17. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    Why are you twisting my words? In my very next post I admitted that the pedophile is worse:

    So did the people who knew & did nothing. I agree the pedophile is worse but the enablers are also despicable. The pedophile is sick in the head and/or has urges he is not able or not willing to overcome. The enablers covered it up for monetary or social reasons. They all make me sick, as well as the fans who are now outraged for Paterno & the football program & care nothing for the victims.

    But I do think the fan who said he hoped Tim Tebow rapes someone is not only disgusting but potentially dangerous.
  18. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

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    According to this article, PSU accepted these sanctions to avoid the death penalty:

    http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsport...ted-sanctions-to-avoid-death-penalty/related/

    That is quite likely as everything would have been discussed with PSU officials before the announcement.
  19. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I thought taf was referring to the likes of Paterno et al who knew what was happening, and actively covered it up knowing Sandusky would rape more children as a result.

    Under the law, people who actively assist in certain crimes are judged equally guilty of those crimes. For example, if a bunch of guys rob a liquor store, and one waits in the get-away car while the others go in with guns and rob the place, the guy driving the car cannot say he didn't actually rob the place so therefore he can't be charged with that crime. The law views them all as equally guilty because the crime involved all of their participation. If someone is killed during the robbery, the get-away driver can be tried for the death penalty in states that have it bc the law doesn't distinguish the shooter from the driver.

    Similarly, prosecutors are now going after church hierarchy for their role in enabling child molestation. No one is saying they actually did the molestation. But prosecutors are charging them with criminal conspiracy and in some cases for the actual abuse suffered bc they knew what was going on and facilitated its continuance. Personally I think it's high time people who facilitate such crimes be held equally accountable under the law. There's nothing bizarre about it (and no, I don't find it a lesser crime one bit).
  20. KHenry14

    KHenry14 Well-Known Member

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    We will never know, but IMO the NCAA caved to pressure from the Big-10 conference to not give PSU the death penalty. The other teams in the league would have lost $$ if PSU went dark for a year, and they weren't about to let that happen.
  21. taf2002

    taf2002 Well-Known Member

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    The law can still charge the actual conspirators. I think the penalties given to Penn State were appropriate.
  22. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    In particular, they are being punished for a lack of institutional control -- which is to say, football isn't supposed to be the tail that wags the dog, and when problems arise, the institution is supposed to exercise control and not allow the problems to continue.

    It wasn't about poor judgment by an individual -- it was cover-up (or choosing not to take action) when action would surely have been taken had behavior like that been seen in, say, the department of Economics. In a related way, the lack of institutional control is also seen in the fear lower level employees had of reporting criminal behavior, and Paterno's practice -- accepted by the University -- of deciding what punishment to mete out to football players.

    CU went through some similar issues in the sexual abuse/recruiting scandal about ten years ago. Colorado State University's president just said it pretty clearly:

    ""No institution can, of course, be immune from the poor judgment of an individual, but every institution should take every step possible to assure that good choices are encouraged and oversight is present to identify and correct any problems at early stages," Frank said."

    http://www.denverpost.com/colleges/...-leadership-keeps-sports-proper#ixzz21Y9MgAa0

    I hope that other football (and basketball) programs take a good look at their own institutional control, or lack thereof.
  23. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I am not "twisting your words." You posted a question asking which was worse. I responded to that. You then clarified but then a bunch of people, including you, jumped down my throat for making things up. Not to mention some of your posts after that don't really support the idea that you think the actual pedophile is worse.

    We can agree to disagree on this one, but I don't appreciate being told I'm crazy or twisting your words because I don't agree with you.

    The law also goes after people who smoke weed. Not everything the law does is morally right IMO and vice versa as sometimes things that are morally reprehensible aren't even illegal.

    IMO it's wrong to punish conspirators equally to the one who actually committed the crime. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished at all but it's a completely different sort of crime and I believe the reason the law goes after those people equally is not because their crime is equal but because sometimes they can't get the actual perp with as heavy a punishment as they like and it makes them feel better to be doing something.

    And people who post stuff on the internet, no matter how moronic, or are upset that their beloved football program is now in trouble because of something just a few people did, aren't even a blip on the radar in the greater scheme of things IMO.
  24. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    I wish I could believe that they would have done something in that case but I wouldn't be surprised if that was covered up too. Though I think they would have quietly gotten rid of the guy in that case... and he would have moved on to another university or college where the cycle would have started all over again.
  25. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    CU actually fired a popular, renowned, tenured physics professor for sexual harassment, and managed to sustain it when it went to court.
  26. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's completely different. I think the crimes are inextricable and thus, should receive equal treatment under the law. If, say, you were the doorkeeper of a room where once children entered inside, you knew they would be raped. They wouldn't be raped by you personally, but that would definitely be their fate. And say you could at any time not open that door and ensure no more children would be raped. For you to claim later that since you technically didn't penetrate a child, you aren't as cupable is complete bullocks in my book.
    I'm not taf, but I think you are completely twisting what she said. She wasn't talking about Internet fans--she was referring to those at Penn State who actively assisted in the cover-up (and perhaps Mrs. Sandusky too). I think you got off on a point she never made, abd have been vehemently defending it when it wasn't the argument made in the first place. But rather than admit you made a mistake, you keep on with you strawman argument.
  27. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^it actually started with a shockingly literal interpretation of a rather rhetorical question imho.
  28. Really

    Really No longer just a "well-known member" Yay!

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    I feel badly for the players on the teams who have had their wins stripped from them as a result of the sanctions against Paterno's record. At the same time, I'm not sure how you could strip those wins from Paterno without doing the same to the players. Don't for a minute think I'm trying to minimize the evil perpetrated by those who covered up Sandusky's crimes; but this is like punishing the whole class because of one kid. Just seems unfair to those players -- unless they were part of the coverup.
  29. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, stripping wins is one of the least influencial punishments the NCAA can give out. It is purely symbolic and really doesn't mean anything. The only reason it matters at all is because it drops JoPa from winningest all time coach to 12th.
  30. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^ as someone said before, life is unfair. Before the scandal broke and Paterno had a god like status, team members benefitted from being part of such a revered legacy. Now that it's all turned to dust, they are negatively impacted by his actions, just as they were positively impacted by them before. Luck always goes both ways.
  31. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the whole "cover up" was to protect the status of the football program, so it is appropriate that the program be stripped of the wins ... anything else lets the school keep the "profit" from the wrongdoing.
  32. BelleBway

    BelleBway a monkey stole my title

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    Except they still keep the profits in many other ways, especially financially- all the tickets and merchandise that have been sold over the years.

    I personally think that stripping wins after the fact is silly except in cases where there was proved cheating on the field of play (I'm thinking of Olympic medals stripped due to doping or age falsification). In this particular case, it smacks of vindictiveness against a single person at the expense of the whole team- would they be stripping the wins if Paterno had ranked 108th all time in wins? Maybe, but I am skeptical.

    It should go without saying, but I'm not sure it always does so I'll say this explicitly: the fact that I don't have a high opinion of this particular sanction doesn't mean that I approve of Penn State's leadership or that I think that wins/football teams/whatever are more important than the true victims, the poor boys that were abused.

    I also think this scandal is bigger than Penn State in some ways. I find it hard to believe that they are the only school whose football team means big business, though I grant that they may be unique in the reverence of their former football coach. I think we as a society have to take a look at how out of whack our values are in terms of things like sports- and I say this as a sports fan. What does it mean that a mediocre major league baseball player can make over a million dollars a year while teachers/police/daycare workers are struggling to pay their bills and won't see that much income in a decade? I don't have the answers, but if people are making the case that the PSU football culture led to the coverup, then it's logical for me to ask what made the football culture so powerful to begin with- and I think that extends beyond Penn State to our society as a whole.
  33. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    Ah, it means a lot. No longer can the alumni brag about the school's winning record for those years, since at best that winning record has an asterisk attached, and at worst has been wiped away. Penn State may see that those lack of bragging rights leads to decreased attendance and donations. Which is probably good for current students, because Baby Boomer-age college alumni wandering their old campuses on game days in their XXL college sweatshirts and baseball caps, blathering about graduating from there in 1978 "back when Bob Burgers was new and before the Engineering building was over there" are super-lame.
  34. Theatregirl1122

    Theatregirl1122 Well-Known Member

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    Except that's not how alumni really view it. The wins don't disappear just because the NCAA says they didn't happen. I really don't believe that anyone who would have donated to the Penn State Football team considering everything else that has happened will be stopped from donating because those wins have been stripped.

    At Syracuse, if you say that the school has 10 Lacrosse championships, you will get a long rant about how we have 11 championships, we won that championship on the field, the coach that we beat thought the punishment was BS and said in an interview that the punishment was BS, the title was stripped because of a secondary violation which was an unprecedented and unwarrented reaction, the NCAA has never stripped a team of wins or titles for a secondary violation other than this either before or since, etc. etc. etc. Even the vast majority of fans of our greatest rivals count that title, the press, including people who blog for the NCAA count that title when they talk about our records, we put that title on our t-shirts, we have posters including that title, heck, the banner for that title hangs in our stadium to this day.

    Taking the title away has had zero effect on our program aside from provoking internet rants.
  35. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    PSU may have a number of longtime donors who, over the past several months, have slowly lost some of their enthusiasm but didn't completely face the situation. This sanction might be their tipping point.

    I suppose we'll know more in a few years when we look at the program's financials. That is, if PSU's athletic department doesn't creatively cover up the decreased donations. We already know they're good at evasion.
  36. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    I thought the fine was designed to strip the monetary profits from Penn State -- doesn't it represents the money earned from the football? If so, then the "stripping" completes the goal of taking from Penn State everything gained from the cover up. If not, there is still the civil lawsuits from the victims.
  37. BelleBway

    BelleBway a monkey stole my title

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    It doesn't seem like the fine amount would strip 14 years of profits, but I could be wrong.
  38. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Well-Known Member

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    No, the $60M fine is less than Penn State's football profits from the past two years. Of course, the profits from the coming several years will be considerably less, given no possibility of post-season bowl appearances and the BigTen withholding Penn State's usual share of the bowl revenue during the ban (approx. $3.5 M/year). I read somewhere what the $60M figure was based on, but can't remember what it was or where I read it.
  39. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention Penn State will lose all their top players, they have no reason to stay. The NCAA said they can transfer with no penalty, why wouldn't they. They fired a huge waring shot to other colleges and sport programs so hopefully these cover-ups won't happen again. I'm just sorry Paterno isn't alive to see it.
  40. KCC

    KCC Active Member

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    Our newspaper had an AP article with a q&a about what happens when wins are vacated. Individual player records do not appear to be affected (they can alter stats for just one person, I guess). Also, the opposing teams will not record wins that PSU is giving up.