Joubert: “The skaters have to improve, but the judging system has to improve, too”

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Ninchen, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    A Beillman is probably not a good counter example, because there have been more men in the past that have done successful Biellman than there have been women (0) landing quad.

    Evan was the deserving Olympic champion. Joubert and Plushy can complain about it all they want but at the end of the day it's Evan that gets to take a shower while wearing the gold medal :p.
     
  2. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Miki landed that one quad back in like 2002 at the JGPF. It's the only time it's happened.

    (Can't Plushenko do a biellmann? :p)
     
  3. angietang

    angietang New Member

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    "level 4 footwork in singles is the most difficult thing of all": :lol:

    In other words, the ladies are capable of competing against the mens like Buttle, Chan, Takahashi and Lysacek at the same event, right? If so, why not get the ladies' discipline and the mens' merged in the near future? LOL
     
  4. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    However Inman was one of the judges who was involved in the development of the PCS part of the COP. And is probably one of the most qualified people out there to give guidance and instruction to other judges on transitions. So they are his opinions, but when he talks he is someone worth listening to and he can quite easily back up his arguments with examples and information.

    Which is something that all judges have to do every time they judge a competition.

    I think everyone stood up and took notice when he was hammering skaters on PCS during the US Nationals, particularly Weir. Most people seemed pretty happy about that.
     
  5. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    This doesn't sound like he disapproves of Lysacek as the rightful winner - since he never watched. He was just upset someone won without a quad. It wasn't personal against Lysacek, nor was he saying Plushenko should have won.
     
  6. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    I love it when people take the easy way out in the argument by using hyperbole. It shows such an ability to think.
     
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  7. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Not only is he upset that someone won without a quad but that to him that person is not even worth watcihng. It's like he couldn't learn anything from a quadless skate so its just totally irrelevent to him and not only that it should be irrelevent to skating!
     
  8. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Honestly I don't know why Plushenko and Joubert were/ are complaining. They get their points for the quads and get way gifted on the TR and CH scores already.

    Suppose the quad gets more base value but in exchange, all judges apply the rules and criteria correctly. Their reduction in PCS would likely be way more than whatever increase in value their quad could bring.

    And it really isn't about old system vs new either. Lambiel and Buttle were in the same era as Joubert and they transitioned to COP just fine (or brilliantly, rather) - because their skating had more than just jumps to offer.
     
  9. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I wonder if Plushenko could just let go and accept the fact that he wasn't good enough (and was already way gifted with silver). That way his blind fans can finally go to sleep and stop with those silly arguments. :p

    I mean, at least in the Yuna - Mao fan war, both are great skaters. :D
     
  10. bek

    bek Guest

    I think that the Olympics was a great time of dissappointment for Brian, and I could understand if just in general he doesn't particularly want to see the winning skate anyways.
     
  11. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    But ad hominem attacks demonstrate a keen mental acuity. :shuffle:
     
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  12. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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  13. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If everything was fair, all elements would be judged by the same measure. If one doesn't have a quad, they are able to make up for it in other areas. Wasn't the purpose of COP to have a BALANCED program?
    Lambiel has been able to do it w/out a 3 Axel...
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Since he was so involved in trasnition formulation he is responsible for making criteria so vague. This whole discussion would not exist if there was a list of tranisitons skaters had to do and you get a higher score the more of these transitions you do. Everything in the criteria is vague. His threes for Weir at US Nationals shows that he has a list of what a transition is and can't get a lot of others to agree with him on his definitions. At the Olympics two judges gave Plushenko fives in the short program. 2 out of 9 followed Inamans orders or agreed with him.

    I believe that everyone who Inman sent the email to knew who Inman was and his opinions and why he would send such an email before the Olympics. He singled himself out by sending the email. The email doesn't even tell the whole story because obviously he is in the judging community all the time and talks to judges.
     
  15. BittyBug

    BittyBug Kiteless

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    Balanced should include doing all of the available triples (potentially minus 3A for women).
     
  16. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Amen. Who doesn't love a good quad? There's nothing more thrilling in figure skating for me. However, the quad is one (1) element out of thirteen scored elements in the men's free skate. It is completely ridiculous of Brian to deem Evan undeserving of the OGM for not having one, even after claiming to not have seen the program. :huh:

    Jeremy Abbott landed a quad toe in his free skate at US Nationals, in addition to 12 other exquisite elements, including a triple axel. Not to mention, fantastic skating skills, seamless transitions, and masterful choreography. The quad was amazing, but it was one element among one of the best programs in memorable history, in my opinion. Personally, I have no doubt that if Jeremy had skated his two programs from Nationals at the Olympics, he would have been the champion. His programs are the ones rewarded under COP, and rightfully so. Plushenko and Joubert just don't seem to get it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2010
  17. angietang

    angietang New Member

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    Oh, really? IMHO, you are no less a blind observer than we are, the devoted fans of Evgeni Plushenko's, who will go down in history as one of the greatest mens skaters for all time! Believe it or not, the revered Mr. President of the International Skating Union made a similar statement in Moscow just a few days ago. :p
     
  18. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, one of the greatest, but also, without a doubt, one of the most (if not numero uno) controversial skaters as well. :p

    His hissy fit after the Olympics was pathetic and juvenile. He ruined his reputation around the world. Instead of accepting the OSM with grace (as it is still a fantastic achievement) he "jokingly" stepped onto the top step of the podium and whined to the media about how he was robbed of gold. Then, he was banned from competing in ISU sanctioned competition ever again. These past few months have not exactly been Plushenko's moments in the sun. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2010
  19. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Not to pick on you, but I always read this. Who said anything about "the expense of everything else"? Joubert is a great skater. Whether or not you enjoy his style, there's no denying that when he's on, he has great skating skills, great performance qualities, great presentation and excution of his elements, a solid spinner, does great footwork, and great speed and flow across the ice. He's also someone who contineously improves, his footwork and edging is now top notch, but that wasn't always the case. He's spent a couple of years experimenting and improving his choreography, seeked help from the likes of Browning and DenStas, his spins have gotten much better, and he relates more to the audience. His transitions within a program are nowhere near the level of Chan or Takahashi, but he's hardly a skater who's only about the quad.
     
  20. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    What is the one word that combines unsportsmanlike, self-absorbed and overrated?
     
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  21. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    He is a good overall skater, and has the edge with a great quad, but his non-quad elements, while still good, always suffer in comparison to other top skaters. Sometimes he doesn't get the levels on them and doesn't maximise his jumping plans.

    He is a great basic skater with powerful strokes and clean edges, but he is just that. Skaters like Chan and Takahashi have been able to demonstrate more than just that with effortless strokes, more skating on one foot and frequent changes in direction.

    His programs are empty choreographically and he mostly just skates from one element to the next. Chan and Abbott for example have been able to demonstrate that they can link all elements together, thus further increasing in their difficulty. Abbott in particular can also link his elements and choreography to the music/ tone of the program.

    He is surely a very crowd pleasing skater but he does not demonstrate thorough and sophisticated understanding of the musical rythym and style like Takahashi and Lambiel.

    Overall his competitive programs are very much alike. The only real performance I love from Joubert was his exhibition from last year's Worlds when he skated to Allelujah. That was some wonderful skating that showed off his strengths as a clean, solid basic skater.

    Perhaps his focus on the quad is why he is relatively lacking in these areas compared to other skaters, but this is precisely what is meant when some people said "I love a good quad, but not at the expense of everything else". And in this case I think he deserved all the credit for the quad, but he also deserved lower PCS than other skaters who were able to demonstrate more variety, quality and difficulty in their PCS components with or without the quad.
     
  22. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Abbott did one triple axel. He did two triple lutzs - one was in a two jump combo and another was in a three jump combo. Plushenko did a quad triple and two triple axels and Joubert when he was on at 2010 worlds did two quads and triple axel.
     
  23. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    "in addition to 12 other exquisite elements"...
     
  24. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Abbott was phenomenal and great but his last spin was a level two because he ended with the classic but low level scratch spin. Of course he got great GOE because he did it GREAT!!! But many could be like "a level 2 spin?? Terrible."
     
  25. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. However, Jeremy's 3 jump combo was a 3-3-2 and in the second half of the program. In fact 5 of Jeremy's 8 clean triples were in the second half of the program. At the Olympics, only 2 of Evgeni's 7 "clean triples" were in the second half, a tactical error by his entire team. At worlds, 3 of Brian's 5 clean triples were in the second half. He fell on an attempted 6th triple, the lutz. Again, this shows a clear lack of COP knowledge. Front loaded programs do not maximize points technically, quad or not. If you have errors in these front loaded programs, forget it.

    Not to mention the fact that the components in either of the aforementioned performances do not even come close to the level of Abbott at US Nationals. If I began to discuss this aspect, I might be at the keyboard for well over 20 minutes..:p
     
  26. senorita

    senorita New Member

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    actually Plushenko and then Takahashi were the first to have level 4 footwork long ago, and in general with the way levels are given sometimes, it doesnt say much. There is miles difference between 4 level high kicks and i pick the flowers from the ice moves and takahashi's 4 level steps for example.


    from all the things he said , I m pretty sure his whine was not about how he was robbed from gold, but i really wouldnt be less bothered to bring the quotes. i thought we agreed ban for life -that his fans used-was not a right word ;)and also from the little I ve seen the last months europe, korea and japan must have missed the note.

    Btw, while talking about blind fans, i think the silly argument of the user you quoted with the above was a resume of what Joubert said in the interview-not Plushenko.


    on topic,nice interview by Brian, it must have been difficult to bounce back from Olys sad feelings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2010
  27. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    What kind of crack are you smoking?

    Inman was *involved* in transition formulation. He did not singlehandedly write the rules. So to say he is "responsible for making criteria so vague" is absurd. Maybe he wrote a more detailed list and it got overturned or watered down at some point. And Inman did not issue "orders" to anyone - he sent out an email describing what he saw as a misapplication of the standards, based on what Plushenko himself said (that he and Joubert had no transitions because they were focused on the jumps). He had no power to order anyone to do anything; he was simply pointing out that he saw marks being awarded that were way out of line with what the skater is actually doing. What he himself saw or didn't see in his own judging is irrelevant.

    And yes, there is a list of transitions that skaters can do. Every skater learns them in skating lessons - stroking, crossovers, 3-turns, mohawks, choctaws, brackets, toepick runs, half-turn jumps, etc. etc. The point which was made earlier, and which you have selectively ignored, is that an Olympic-level skater should be able to do more than basic 3-turns, crossovers, and mohawks, and should be rewarded with more points if s/he does more than those.
     
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  28. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    In his own judging? Do you mean official judging? Because obviously he was watching programs and saying "this is worth nothing when it comes to transitions" and made it his mission to get other judges to score transitions as he saw them? That is why he sent the email? His whole basis of sending the email was to get judges to score Plushenko lower as well as other skaters who he thought was being marked too high?

    My point was that nowhere in the criteria does it say that doing basic things can't be worth a lot in the transition mark. The rules don't indicate that if a skater does brackets and choctaws that that skater should only get 3 or 4 and if they do spread eagles they get a 8 or 9. Maybe that is what Inman is going around saying the standards should be but that's not in the rules.
     
  29. Gil-Galad

    Gil-Galad Well-Known Member

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    This must be the millionth discussion after the same old pattern:

    Someone (from the Quad Bloc) says they like to see a Quad and prefer having winners with a Quad.

    The Transition Quad enters the discussion, saying that transitions, choreo yadayada are more important overall (wahhhh - COP-friendly - wahhhh)

    The Quad Bloc says they still like the Quad and the Quad makes it more difficult to have complicated transitions etc. (wahhh Quad needs to be worth more wahhh)

    The Transition Quad accuses the Quad Bloc of being satisfied with a skater coming out on the ice and just doing a Quad-stroke-Triple etc. And of course everyone who is a member of the Quad Bloc is automatically a Plushybot.

    Then the Quad Bloc accuses the Transition Bloc of being even satisfied with a skater just doing doubles, if there is enough yadayadayada. Oh, sometimes it also cites the argument that single's skating is looking like single ice dance these days.

    ---------------------------
    But you know what: The Transition Bloc won!!! Evan-freaking-Lysacek is the freaking Olympic Champ! Patrick Chan can win competitions and medals with junior/ladies jump content. Why do you keep arguing about something that has already been decided in your favour? Since you won the whole thing, how about pitying the Quad Bloc or at least ignoring it?

    As a member of the Quad Bloc - we are like relicts from an ancient time! We are like these old grandmas, reminiscing about the good old times. And we just enjoy to mope and to complain about the current quadless skates. Once in a while other relicts throw us a bone - like Joubert in this interview - and we just enjoy it, and of course start moping. Can you people just let us mope without rubbing in our faces that in fact the dispute is already over and that we were / are wrong about everything?
     
  30. bek

    bek Guest

    But how often pray tell do Chan and Abbott actually go clean? And I'm not sure I'd call Chan a great jumper @ this point. Abbott at times does go clean and when he does should truly be rewarded but in a lot of other times he's a mess.

    That is frankly my issue with the whole transition/choregraphy thing. Is that we can get some very very messy programs and these transition guys with 2 sometimes 3 falls still get huge PCS. I don't particularly think that's good for the sport. I'd actually rather see Chan and Abbott do a little less and also fall less.

    Not to mention that not only is the Quad going but more and more are becoming inconsistent with the 3axel. Jumps have always been historically a huge part of singles, and I kind of don't blame Joubert who spent all of his time working to get the jumps consistent to have to react as the sport suddenly switched. And he has a point about a transition in between a quad, not being really possible, which is why I'd like to see the transition mark in PCS frankly go. And transitions be rewarded in choregraphy and a factor in GOE.

    It also goes in with the whole Lepisto World medal. Surely the sport can have a balance between making it only jumps but not writing of jump difficulty as frankly unimportant. To me the real balanced skater has both jumps and spins, footwork etc. I'm tired of great jumps not being called part of the package they are.