John Coughlin Out Due to Hip Surgery

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by sk9tingfan, Dec 5, 2012.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    According to ISU Rule 378 (Entries ISU Championships Single & Pair Skating & Ice Dance), it's "Not more than 28" for 2 entries, so 13th and 15th would still be okay.
  2. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    Ah this is insensitive and bad form!... to suggest another partner for Caydee under Johns surgery forum? Geez...stay together teams need to stay together ....and support each other and my guess is they will come back stronger than ever! Good luck and speedy healing to John!!
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    I didn't take UMBS Go Blue's post seriously. :D


    I was surprised to read that part, too. Coughlin is very fortunate to have top-notch facilities and medical/PT staff at the Olympic Training Center for his rehab. and recovery process, so hopefully he will follow what they say to the letter.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  4. Rochelle

    Rochelle New Member

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    From the ISU's list of best pairs total scores from this season:
    http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2012-13/sbtspto.htm

    Looking at these senior teams:
    9 174.51 Marissa CASTELLI / Simon SHNAPIR USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    14 163.10 Alexa SCIMECA / Chris KNIERIM USA ISU GP NHK Trophy 2012 25.11.2012
    25 143.15 Tiffany VISE / Don BALDWIN USA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2012 10.11.2012
    32 131.26 Gretchen DONLAN / Andrew SPEROFF USA ISU GP Hilton HHonors Skate America 2012 20.10.2012
    36 127.33 Haven DENNEY / Brandon FRAZIER USA ISU JGP Lake Placid 2012 01.09.2012

    Upfront, that's misleading though. Looking at that list, when you take out the Junior GP competitors, and those who likely won't make the cut of the world team (But no Takahashi/Tran, Sui/Han, Vartman/VanCleave, Kemp/King)... the American teams (based on the top scores so far this season) would really fall at about 8th for Marissa/Simon for top scores so far, and the second American team is in the ballpark of of 13th-15th.

    It might be close, but the US should be relatively okay in securing their two Olympic spots. I'd be most concerned about a during-the-course-of-the-competition-withdraw impacting us the most in that scenario. Hope both assigned US teams stay healthy and injury free...
  5. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    True...I just thought it was not a good "joke" and kind of insensitive to make a statement at this time...even a not serious one like that..it reminded me of the person that says something mean and then says haha JK. but obviously I am over sensitive and believe in weird stuff like energy, karma, and putting positive things into the universe at times like this..it is a really disappointing time and joking aside I know there are a lot of questions, wonderings, and worry about our USA pairs discipline and athletes...he seems to be healing so fast! Things could end up on task for Worlds at this rate..it is possible I guess.
  6. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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    Welcome to FSU, figureit! :)
  7. figureit

    figureit New Member

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  8. figureit

    figureit New Member

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    Ps. Just to mention it has been very interesting to belong to FSU it is nice there is even a Forum to discuss things with skating on such a level and learn about news and debate. It is very good.
  9. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    This.
  10. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    One team could fail to make the FS as long as the other was Top 12: the most placement points they assign to a team that miss the FS is 16.

    It will be interesting to see USFS' strategy if a skater/team that hasn't met the Worlds minimums is give a provisional spot, if the substitutes will be required to have the score to be listed, and/or if USFS will send skaters without the minimum to any other international but 4C's. The upcoming internationals with Pairs (before Worlds) are listed as:

    Dec 13-16: Golden Spin (Zagrb)
    Jan 3-5: 1st New Year Cup (Bratislava)
    Jan 10-12: Nesquick Cup (Torun)
    Feb 7-10: Bavarian Open (Oberstdorf)
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  11. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    I wish John a full and speedy recovery!
  12. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

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    If Donlan/Speroff could pull of 2nd at Nationals, could they be given the provisional second spot at Worlds provided they get the Worlds SP min at 4cc?
  13. Tammi

    Tammi Well-Known Member

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    I know a skater who had hip surgery for a torn labral a few years ago out in Vail and I remember her doing something very similar as part of rehab.
  14. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    I agree, and said so on the first page. Way weirder things have happened (e.g. how Denney & Coughlin ended up together in the first place, lol, some demonizing Caydee; not me though :p). I refuse to take the holier than thou miss goody two shoes position. :rolleyes:

    On that note, thank goodness FSU has over a decade long reputation of allowing all opinions, good or bad. Relatively free of the thought police, unlike some other boards/groups/cliques. Not talking about the *self appointed ones*, that can't be helped. ;) :D

    Anyhow, back on topic, good luck to John (& Caydee), and all the pair teams competing at Sr. Nationals ~ BRING IT ON!!!!:cool:
  15. maatTheViking

    maatTheViking Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that is quick back on working out! My husband had shoulder surgery (torn some ligament from MTB fall), and 2 hours after his surgery he was till drugged out of his mind and asleep on the couch. He has a very high pain threshold but was quite affected by the pain for a couple of days at the tail end of his drugs...

    So I am impressed! Speedy recovery to Coughlin, after seeing him and Denny live at SKAM they may grow on me yet...
  16. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    John needs to show up at competition with something much more difficult and much more important than any triple jump: the ability to lift a woman over his head, safely, while moving at top speed on a slippery surface, balanced on a half of a knife blade. Moreover, he needs to be capable of doing so four minutes into a long program, which is a lot more difficult than doing it in isolation. And he needs to be capable of "saving" a lift, four minutes into a program, no matter what has gone wrong. ("Saving" a lift means anything from "no one watching notices that anything happened" to "prevent the girl from landing on her head." The latter is what I have in mind here.)

    Lift mohawks require a fair amount of hip strength and stability within the joint. If you picture what happened to the strength in Czisny's hip last March, as evidenced by how her hip kept collapsing under her on the landings of jumps - now picture a lift in which the man has lost the strength in his hip, or worse - as happens with these tears, when a man loses the strength but can't feel that the strength is gone.

    Yes, this Philippon's protocol for all patients; his rehab procedure concentrates on getting the joint moving as soon as possible to reduce inflammation and the possibility of scar tissue(?), and accelerates quickly. Thomas Byrd, the surgeon who did Czisny's surgery, uses a more conservative protocol that emphasizes rest and healing.

    Hip surgery trivia: the anesthesiologist who worked with Philippon when he was developing this surgery, Tony Conte, is past chair of the Adult Skating Committee. At some Governing Council-or-another, after some skater-or-another had this surgery with Philippon, I got a breakdown of the differences in surgical technique between Byrd and Philippon. :) (All teasing aside, it was actually quite interesting - and I'm amazed at how many skaters have had this surgery with one surgeon or the other.)
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  17. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    I certainly wasn't suggesting that Coughlin try to do programs or lifts with a still-injured, weakened hip. When you are responsible for the well-being of another skater, it's even more important to not skate with a major injury. I was referring more to the time period after full recovery when the skater is trying to get back into competitive form and the differences that might arise between a singles skater and a male pairs skater, both physically and mentally. I'm sure a skater like Czisny would expect to take many, many falls as she begins to get back into her full arsenal of jumps, which could be especially nerve-wracking with a newly repaired hip. Hard falls on your hip area are not exactly a rarity while jumping, especially when you haven't jumped in a while and aren't so consistent anyway. Czisny's technical issues are well documented.

    On the other hand, a pair guy like Coughlin who returns to the ice after full recovery should certainly not be falling with any type of regularity on lifts, etc. I just think that the mental and physical hurdles could definitely be different for different skaters as they look to return to competition. Like I said before, I don't know the exact reasons behind Czisny's relatively long delay in her return, but I have a strong feeling that what she faced is as least somewhat different than what Coughlin will face. Every athlete is different.

    On another note, thanks for pointing out a key difference between Coughlin and Czisny's rehabs. Interesting stuff. That could very well be a factor that impacts recovery time.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  18. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Wishing John speedy recovery.
    What's wrong with this season? So many injuries. :eek:
  19. marysy

    marysy Member

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    Yes, I remember reading about this protocol when the NHL player Paul Kariya had his hip labrum repaired a few years ago as well. Whether or not that accelerates the rehab process, I'm not sure, as I believe it took him 3-4 months after surgery to be ready to play.

    Wishing John all the best in his recovery.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  20. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    What sad news! :( Wishing John a full & speedy recovery!
  21. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

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    Knowing John, I'd be surprised if they didn't skate at Worlds
  22. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    Comparing this to Alissa's torn labrum. She was faltering months in advance of her surgery. John was rocking his programs as recently as CoR. Now, he seems to have bounced back quickly (on the stationary bike a day after). Is it possible that his injury was far less severe and thus, he will be ice-ready much sooner? IDK about these things
  23. Iceman

    Iceman Well-Known Member

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    It is the operation itself that is the greatest determinant here. According to the Mayo Clinic, many receiving this operation can expect to return to their sport within 4 to 6 months. Even if John can do that, they would not have adequate time to prepare for competition. imo
  24. maureenfarone

    maureenfarone Active Member

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    Wishing John a speedy recovery! Personally I don't expect to see him again this season - JMO.
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear of this additional injury news this season, but glad for John he's had his injury taken care of and is maintaining his positive forward-looking view of things, which surely helps with healing.

    Best of luck to John for a full and safe recovery, and I look forward to seeing him and Caydee back on the ice when he's fully healed!
  26. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    You read that where? Czisny had it in July and was not ready to compete at GP at the end of November. Hip surgery is much more complicated than knee surgery and the healing time is much longer. (I had labral tear repaired in July too.) Maybe if he was a dancer but as a pair skater? Doubtful.
  27. BittyBug

    BittyBug Quadless

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    Knowing exactly what about John? No amount of will, determination, dedication or discipline can speed required healing time. I'm reminded of the expression that nine women one month pregnant do not a baby make - some things cannot be rushed.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  28. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering if it is healthy to go in competing at that level after such an injury. Isn't that what abruptly ended both Lipinski's and Yagudin's competitive careers?
  29. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    No, they won't. This surgery takes a min. of 4-6 months recovery, which does NOT include the season's worth of endurance it takes to build up a program. Perspective - Czisny has been out from June - November and still isn't ready. You can be "recovered" from the surgery and be on the ice skating, but that doesn't mean your endurance is ready for World's.

    No. Lipinski quit because she was bored of skating and wanted to be an actress. She had the surgery right at the end of her amateur career/begining of her professional career, which gives a false impression that this is why she quit amateur skating. Tara continued for four more years as a professional doing triple jumps. The hip is not why she quit.
  30. Debbie S

    Debbie S Well-Known Member

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    You may be right about why she left skating, but IIRC, she had hip surgery after several pro seasons - in 2001 or 2002.
  31. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 New Member

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    Tara retired from eligible skating in 1998 at the age of 15. She did not get hip surgery until she was 18. She was in pain and misdiagnosed for 3 or 4 years before finally getting the surgery. She did retire from eligible skating largely because her hip could not take it anymore. In her pro programs, IIRC, she mainly only did 3T and 3S, because that was all her hip could handle.
  32. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Yes, thanks for this chronology (did you check it somewhere). I don't remember the exact order of events myself. I do recall in recent years reports that Tara used to over-practice her jumps at the rink, which likely added to the stress her hip came under. I wonder did she get a full hip replacement or just repair? Kinda scary at such a young age if it was hip replacement. IF so, I wonder whether it lasts forever or if more surgery is needed later on in life.

    It's really inspiring to see all the stuff athletes with missing limbs are enabled to do these days with the new technologies. I wonder why the skate boot can't be revolutionized in a better way to cushion more of the impact that skaters bodies now suffer.
  33. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

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    http://www.ehow.com/facts_5907131_recovery-time-hip-labrum-surgery_.html It says pain free in 2-6 months. That is quite a wide range, which means every individual case is probably quite different depending on several factors. I would think being a very young, strong athlete receiving top-notch care from people who typical work with athletes would help tremendously. It's not like he's a sedentary 50 year old. But we also don't know the severity of the situation. If John is fully recovered by early February, he would have about a month to prepare for Worlds. Not a lot of time at all, but maybe not impossible. How quickly he can get his stamina/strength back would depend in part on how much conditioning he can do as he is recovering. If he's non-weight-bearing for a while and is very limited in the amount of cardio he can do, he'd be much weaker and more out of shape when he returns. But if he's permitted to do quite a bit of off-ice work early on, who knows.

    The press release didn't give any timetable for return, so it doesn't seem so promising. Perhaps it's still up in the air. Still, in the event that he is ready to compete in time, hopefully USFS would allow D/C to be monitored for Worlds. I still don't think Czisny's situation is necessarily indicative of what will happen for John. She has enough jumping issues with healthy hips, so getting ready for competition after a long layoff might present a lot of added challenges. I wonder if it was possible that she was capable of competing in her GP, but just didn't want to be there if she didn't feel she could skate her best.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  34. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    I wish John a speedy, healthy recovery. I would hope, though, that they would not compete until he is 100% sure he can keep Caydee safe. I mean, with singles, it's just your risk but with pairs, you do have a partner to think about. I am, however, sure that John will be thinking of Caydee's safety especially during lifts and they will skate again when he is healed. Wishing them both the best.
  35. Lacey

    Lacey Well-Known Member

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    Wow this is stunning news. Good recovery to him, and may he only return if and when he is ready...
  36. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

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  37. nylynnr

    nylynnr Active Member

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    Maybe "stationary bike rehabber" can join "almost girl" in the lexicon.
  38. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, it took me a good 8 months after knee surgery to start some sort of physical activity that wasn't PT. Granted, I'd managed to tear my ACL, partially (but almost all the way) tear my MCL and a nice meniscus tear to top it all off. I'd say how long you're out also depends on the severity of the injury.

    Also, it's possible certain jumps put more stress on your hip labrum than others, i.e. loops are a lot of hip action, but something like a 2axel is easier on the hips.
  39. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    It may say pain free in 2-6 months, but it did not say in top shape ready to compete at elite level of sport where you are actually moving on a slippery surface carrying another person above your head! I had it in July and still struggle with something as simple as sit spin. While it doesn't hurt, it feels so stiff that it feels like if I was 80. He will have to work through this. On elite level that will put him in huge disadvantage.
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  40. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    When I wrote that knee surgery is easier than hip surgery, I was comparing the same types of injury. Labral tear means torn cartilage in hip, so comparable to that in knee would be torn meniscus. Three weeks after meniscus operation I was back on the ice and a few more weeks later it was like if I didn't have any surgery at all. Knee surgery is less invasive. It took me about 10 weeks to go back on the ice after the hip surgery (labral tear) and even a few months later I am still not where I was before the surgery. Labral tear surgery takes much longer, and they have to pull the hip out of the socket, so there is a chance of some more damage caused. The healing takes longer.

    Your case, Ioana, would be different, because you not only torn cartilage, you also torn two ligaments. In fact, I seem to remember that your injury is quite common with gymnasts, they have those three together and it is usually career ending. Shawn Johnson had it; it ended her comeback. She wrote that the doctors call it 'terrible triad'. This combination of knee injuries would of course be much worse than torn cartilage in hip.
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012