Job with less pay

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Guinevere, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    On the point of being chronically late, just want to say generally (not necessarily in this situation because I don't know the details or context), it can actually be a very big deal. When it's only a few minutes, there's not much you can really say, but over time, it can become a thorn in the side of those who make the effort to be on time - coworkers might wonder how the late person gets away with it, resent that nothing is being done about it, and eventually say so to management.

    It's also a problem if everyone else is at their desks and ready to work, but one person they need to speak to or get a response from is not. Even five minutes late is often more by the time the person hangs up their coat, fires up their computer, gets a coffee, stops in the washroom etc.

    And, I have to say that people who are chronically late often display a continuing pattern - late back from lunch, late to meetings, etc. It's unprofessional, it can get in the way of others' work, and the implication is that one is chipping away at company time, which annoys management and coworkers. The other thing is that chronic late people often have a distorted sense of time, or convince themselves it's not that bad - for example saying they are 10 minutes away when it's really 20, or thinking they were only 5 minutes late when it's really 15, counting arrival time as when they pulled into the parking lot or through the front door instead of when they were at their desk and actually starting to work.

    Even if one "makes up for it" by staying late or working through lunch or not taking smoke breaks like some others, that isn't necessarily enough - especially if other workers who are always on time also regularly work late or through their lunch hour. Unless there's a public policy on the matter, as I said, chronic lateness can create resentment over time of someone who is perceived to be "getting away" with something.

    Another one - and this sounds minor but you'd be surprised - is people who continually show up late with a Starbucks in their hand. To many - including management - that's a clear signal of where one's priorities are. I've seen it happen - nothing is said, but it sure is noticed, and when push comes to shove, it's a black mark against you.

    Again, not commenting on anyone in this thread because I don't know the full story - just a few general comments about lateness and why it's a very big deal for some people.
     
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering about the lateness myself. Why are you late 5 minutes every day? I'm not excusing your manager's behavior or saying she was sincere in her reason for writing you up, but I was really wondering why you were late every day for the past 6 years or so.
     
  3. Rogue

    Rogue Sexy Superhero

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    Wow - she must be generating a lot of revenue if the company is willing to pay legal fees for all these wrongful dismissal lawsuits, with the probability that there will be more to come.

    Actually, losing 12 out of 30 over 6 years isn't all that bad a record. I once worked for a lady that ran them off much quicker than that. Out of a group of 24, by the time I had been there a year, only 3 people had been there longer than me. After 15 months, I couldn't take it anymore, either. I almost accepted a job with lower pay (although the hours would also have been fewer) but then a new offer with better pay came along.
     
  4. Rogue

    Rogue Sexy Superhero

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    My first thought was that she was relying on public transportation, and the bus/subway schedule made her 5 minutes late.
     
  5. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Get off my lawn

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    I had a situation like that once. I lived in the 'burbs and relied on commuter rail to get in to the office. If I took the 7:05 train and switched to the subway, I'd usually get in the office about 8:20 when our normal start was 8:15. My earlier option would have been a 6:35 train, making my total day well over 12 hours. Others in the department had similar public transport issues. After explaining to my manager, he switched the entire department to flex time. You had to be in the office between 7 and 9 and put in a minimum of 8 1/2 hours. Of course, we didn't wait 6 years to discuss this.
     
  6. Guinevere

    Guinevere New Member

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    That's exactly the reason. I take public transit and have now switched to the bus 15 minutes earlier. I now show up at 8:10 and still work late.

    I understand the issue of being late can be a big deal even if its a few minutes and would not normally have a problem - if it was department policy. my old job was very strict with this and I was on time. But two things: 1. People are STILL coming in late and to my knowledge have not been written up. Also they dont work late because i watch them leave on time every day from my office 2. If it such a problem then perhaps I should have been told. Instead I was told I was being monitored.

    Just an update, I emailed the HR lady back and asked to see if they were willing to renegotiate the salary. My friend who is a HR lady herself vetted my email so hopefully it's okay.
     
  7. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    That can happen for many reasons. I was always about 5 to 10 minutes late, when I worked in NYC. It was because of the train/PATH/subway schedule. I could have been there on time. But, to do that I would have had to take a train 1 hour earlier, and I'd have gotten in 45 minutes early. I compensated, as Guinevere did, by working 1 to 2 hours late, every day. Nothing was ever said to me about it, until I got pregnant. So, I got up an hour earlier, got in 45 minutes early, no one was there to work with, and left on time. It was far less productive.
     
  8. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

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    So? Take an earlier bus/train.

    I have to be at work at 8:00, and when I have had to take the bus, I am out the door at 7:10, and I only live 5 blocks away from the bus stop, and 3 miles from my job, plus the local transit company runs buses on their major routes, at least, every 10 minutes (and the route I take goes into Albany, so it is considered a "major route").
     
  9. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    That's easy when you have frequent busses/trains. Not so much when you have fewer.
     
  10. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Transportation issues can be legit (but not always), but as Aceon6 describes, one should bring such situations forward to their manager and agree on a course of action.

    And make a point of letting others know the deal, because as I said otherwise resentments can simmer below the surface until one day they explode. (As Guinevere notes above, some of her colleagues come in late and she doesn't know why, nor if they have been called out for it - her coworkers might be saying the same about her.)
     
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I thing is that I understand public transport is a big headache and can be late, but when you take a route that will make you consistently 5 minutes (more or less) late, then that only gives employers something to write about when they choose to.

    Unless you have an actual agreement that allows you to go to work later or have some sort of grace period to come in, you have to suck it up and take the earlier (even if it's like an hour) train/bus/subway. Again, if it's better for you to come in five minutes later, then it would benefit you to get actual consent to come in at the later time. That way you won't be considered 5 minutes late any longer and the employer can't write you up for that reason.
     
  12. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I would consider how much the new job learning is needed. Sometimes it is not as hard as it might seem on the outside.

    Seems to me that the company is well aware of her tactics and approve of them. especially if the department brings in revenue and continues to lower department over head by forcing people out of the department. I've been the "victim" bought the shirt, lost my self-esteem and sense of identity after the loss of a job and pushed out in that way. In hindsight I should have left on my own terms.

    Having to hire a lawyer to save your job? where is the HR department? or even the company's lawyer who says WTF is happening in the department and why to we have to continue to do this. If the department is that successful in obtaining revenue that they would continue the practice, it probably will not stop anytime soon if at all.

    Why - companies don't consider this when trying to build a case for your dismissal
    Think about the pros and cons - what is it that you give up to move to a new position at 6K less. Are you having to give up food, shelter, health, then maybe not a good move. If you are giving up other things that you could go back to when you start to earn more and have an opportunity to move up - maybe a good move. If you health is at risk, move. I discovered that the crushing chest pain I experience almost daily is gone. The excess weight is gone because I am not stress eating. I could list many more.
     
  13. Garden Kitty

    Garden Kitty Tranquillo

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    As others have indicated, the main concern I have about your current job is that the manager may be trying to get you fired and it's easier to find a new job without having to explain why you were let go. The impact of the financial hit, and the overall impact in the change in job responbilities etc. is something that only you can evaluate.

    The one caveat I'd have, and it sounds like you've worked long enough to realize this, is that it's definitely possible that your new job will also have lots of things you don't like about it - managers that aren't always reasonable, coworkers who don't do their share and work demands that impact your personal life and free time. Few jobs won't have something, and often something significant, that annoy you. But overall will the new job be a better fit for your life and your professional ambitions?
     
  14. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

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    My employer had a new hire in our Fabrication Dept. some years back who used to take off early without permission. Why? Because he saw a co-worker leaving early every Friday, so he assumed it was OK for him to do it too. Never mind that the co-worker was a manager who lived out in Auburn, NY (several hours' drive from Albany) - he kept an apartment here in town, and he also worked extra hours the other days of the week so that he could leave at 3:00 on Friday.

    That new hire didn't last too long, to say the least.
     
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    These are all points that would work in Guinevere's favour - quite strongly IMHO - if there was a wrongful dismissal suit. If the employer has implictly accepted the lateness from her and others for years, and then started monitoring her and her alone *and* without letting her know there was a problem, there is a very high chance that will be interpreted as singling her out for the purposes of getting her to quit.

    Guinevere, are you quite sure that no one else has been written up or warned?
     
  16. genegri

    genegri Active Member

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    Is your current job secure? If so, I would let go the new offer but keep looking for a better one.

    But if you current job is not secure as I suspect, I would take the new offer but still keep looking for another one.

    Either way, good luck!
     
  17. Guinevere

    Guinevere New Member

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    Wow I guess the point is moot - I was just let go today!!!
     
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    So sorry to hear that. {{{Guinevere}}} Good for you having the foresight to find another job before it happened!
     
  19. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    So sorry to hear that. Hope you are okay.
     
  20. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Did they give a reason? ((Guinevere))
     
  21. Guinevere

    Guinevere New Member

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    No they said I no longer fit with the direction the department was going. They also said I'd done nothing wrong (both the HR lady and department head said that).
     
  22. Cachoo

    Cachoo Well-Known Member

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    Well maybe that wasn't the way you wanted to leave but I hope this leads to happier employment. I guess the "overwhelmed" co-worker will be even more overwhelmed now. Shucks!
     
  23. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

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    Sucks. But you're free of all that now, and you already have an offer in hand, and another interview in play. Because you are that in demand. Remember through all this - you rock. Head held high, and on to the next thing.
     
  24. victoriajh

    victoriajh Well-Known Member

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    WOW , very interesting given your thoughts on the manager and her direction....did your at let get some severance? Can they let you go without fair warnings etc? Ad I agree with pp luckily you have some other options in play! Good lukc
     
  25. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    I'd talk to an employment lawyer if I were you, since from what you have posted it sounds like you didn't get any warning about your (alleged) lack of fit, or a chance to change. Did they offer you any severance pay?
     
  26. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    That sounds really dodgy and very vague. What kind of "direction" were you meant to fit in with? I agee with Overedge about seeing a lawyer.
     
  27. Guinevere

    Guinevere New Member

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    Thanks everyone for all the kind words!! I think I will be fine in the long run.

    They couldn't tell me what direction the department was headed in, so I don't know. It's been a whole 21 days since I got my first notice on Jan. 2 until today.

    Funny enough, it's like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders, and I can breathe again. It's going to be rough going for a while but it feels better than sitting in the office wondering what's going on that I'm not aware of.
     
  28. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    Well, if they can't tell you what direction the department is headed, how do they know you don't fit with it?

    I think you should write down everything they said to you today, while it is still fresh in your memory, and see a lawyer.
     
  29. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I'm so sorry Guinevere. That sucks.
    If Guinevere lives in the US - I believe most if not all states have an at will law. That means the employer can fire or let you go without reason - at their will. Most companies want to have a bit of justification no matter how small or difference in policy from one month to another, but they still have the "at will" option.
     
  30. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

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    Totally understand. Having been in a situation where I was let go from job (reason given being that I didn't fit in with the company), it ended up being the best thing that could have happened. Because now I am probably in the best job that I have ever had. So sounds like it might end up being a good thing and a great opportunity to find something else. Really hoping that it works out for you. Good luck.