Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Rex, Feb 28, 2013.
So does my mother.
I have never bought the Enquirer in my life. Neither has my mother.
I never miss Fashion Police, own Joan's documentary, and even travelled to Ottawa to see her live last year.
Good for you. Do what you love.
I guess you either like her or you don't. Joan has been satirical from the very beginning of her career as a comedian, and she's not going to change now.
But that could mean 3 more people watched it this week than last week.
But the world has changed. If your humor doesn't change, you turn into a fossil and become irrelevant.
Very true! I totally agree with you.
Joan is just as she has always been, totally tasteless.
However, I didn't think her Oscar show this year flowed, she was static, forced.
It has been setting records in ratings and has extended its duration time. You really think TV PTB are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts or just because 3 more people are watching? I know you really want it to be unpopular but it's just not the case.
Oh good grief. I was poking fun at the network. I actually don't give a shit one way or another how popular the show is or if Joan Rivers jokes about the Holocaust (as I said in this thread-- she's Jewish, it's her history and therefore her prerogative to joke if she wants to).
Though now that you bring it up... I think the self-congratulatory BS that networks put out about their shows is both funny and stupid at the same time. Like "upward trajectory" because the actual numbers on shows that are on tiny cable networks are minuscule compared to a bigger network so they don't want to list them. Or CBS labeling all their shows #1. The #1 this. The #1 that. The #1 new show that's on Tuesdays in the Winter and stars two guys, but not 1 guy and 1 gal or 2 gals.
Anyway, I've never really found Joan to be all that funny. I like comedians like Craig Ferguson who cracks me up every time I make myself stay up late enough to watch his show. And what little I've seen of Russell Brand. For old-school, I like Monty Python. Hmm. Those are all from the British Isles. I guess I like dry humor and black humor. Oh and Stephen Cobert.
As mentioned, shows don't usually get extended from 30 min to an hour if their numbers are miniscule. And the actual numbers were listed.
About Stephen Colbert--his Occupy segments had me in stitches.
I recently downloaded Joan Rivers' "Don't Start With Me" album off iTunes. I know that Joan's comedy styles are not to everyone's tastes, but I laughed. $9.99 well spent.
Oh FP is HUGE for E! But not for the broadcast networks. I mean the media is moaning all over the place that that AI is in trouble with it's 12.5 million viewers while Fashion Police seems to be in the 3-4 million from what I can tell. But clearly that's good for FP even though 4x that is bad for AI.
Anyway, I'm sorry if the fact that I found "upward trajectory" to be an amusing phrase and decided to poke fun at it as clearly that has offended you in some way.
How could you ever offend with your ever-so-refined black/dry/British humor?
FP has over 4 million viewers each week and if the total for AI is 12.5, that's huge.
Can you imagine Joan commentating a skating competition. If she does, I hope John Baldwin comes back to compete in that event. She could go to town.
Russell Brand is refined?
As far as I can tell (reporting of ratings is sketchy), The Walking Dead has numbers close to AI but the next cable show down is about half that. I remember when cable shows were lucky to get a million viewers though. Times sure do change!
I don't think Joan gets a pass because she is a Jew. And, no, one could not "laugh themselves out of a concentration camp". There is just not a damn thing funny about the horror of the situation.
And the remark (I can't even call it a joke) is pretty offensive to Heidi.
I think the problem with the remark is that "hot" is a positive thing. Germans burning Jews, not so much.
And Joan gets lots more publicity by being controversial than polite.
^ I used to like Joan's brand of comedy, but she doesn't get a pass from me, either.
I did - very interesting film, kind of sad. From what I understand that all comedians are insecure, she fits the mold. She feels the need to keep working, afraid of not working again. She mentioned Edgar and you can tell she really misses him.
And love all the Melissa comments. Joan sure does want to get her a career.
I saw Joan in Vegas in the mid 80s - she was pretty funny. I do watch Fashion Police after big events like the Oscars and she seems meaner, and not as funny. Giuliana's and Kelly's reactions on FP can be pretty funny though.
and then there are some folk who read Enquirer to laugh and to keep track of what some other folk they want to avoid are reading
Get 2. One for beneath the tail-bone, the other for beneath the nose-bone.
I, my family and friends, all detest her. She is a vulgar shtetl-mouth, typical mother-of-a-JAP and the worst-of-Catskill borscht-belt dressed and behaved creature. Her daughter is a useless dud, unattractive and untalented.
On the other hand
Joan Rivers maybe the wisest, smartest, cleverest of creatures who is laughing all the way to the bank while making millions on catering to the tastes of the lowest common denominator (translation: average US audience).
On the other hand
I dont have much respect for such method of making money
There is a decent elegant interesting way to be a Jewish comedian: Mel Brooks, Jerry Lewis, Victor Borge, Woody Allen, Milton Berle, Bette Midler, and more.
Creatures like Sacha Baron Cohen, Larry David, Don Rickles, and the named Joan Rivers, are not better than Benny Hill-in-variations, and degrade the concept of clever Jewish humor.
On the other hand
. That does not mean Rivers joke-in-question in offensive to the Jews. Holocaust is over, nobody is likely to be allowed to forget it for centuries to come, and the next generations of Jews are doing better en-mass than many other ethnic groups which were the master group in the countries where these Jews came from.
One camp survivor from Osventzem put out a dance videos I will survive.
If anything Rivers is offensive to Germans. But those poor 3rd and 4th apre-war generation creatures have been beaten into submission to dare to complain about such matters
Today they even allow Russians to parody the Conquest of Berlin right under the Brandenburg Gates and display Allied Forces Soldiers in full uniforms.... (disgusting!)
What I dont like about Rivers joke is that it is historically inaccurate on both main counts.
a) There have been MANY HOT Germans besides Heidi Klum in 20th and 21st century: Marlene Dietrich, Hanna Schygulla, Claudia Shiffer, Hanne Bruning, Julia Stegner, Lynn Rage, and many more.
b) The Germans themselves never got HOT next to the ovens. They had selected young healthy jewish camp prisoners called Sonderkommando do the dirty jobs around the ovens.
I dont know why I am so bothered by the criticism of Rivers joke. I dont like Rivers, I dont like the joke
but I HATE mindless political correctness washed into the minds of so many Americans
. Its beginning to feel no different than political correctness of the Soviet Union or any totalitarian regime..
Ah, Tinami. Good to see you back.
Joan Rivers is from the Don Rickles school of humor. Jokes through insult, though she is far more vulgar. I watched Fashion Police that night and the comment made me squirm. I'm not Jewish, but it felt really scuzzy to me. I enjoy watching Fashion Police for the fashion itself, but most of the time I wish Joan would just shut up. I don't know that she has to apologize, it is Joan, but she should edit herself. It seems that she doesn't care about funny any more, just shock. And there are things that just are not funny.
Sorry for the double post.
I agree with you, as far as they have the "right" to call themselves what they want. But, I agree with Rex. It is an ugly word that should not be used by anyone. If a Black person uses the word, they can unintentionally take away from it's ugliness and give permission to others to use it. I used to think it was okay for Italians to call themselves Guineas, and did myself. But, I realized it was wrong. That my using the word helped perpetuate the ugly stereotype. I realized that i cannot be offended by all of the Italian Mafia movies and other portrayals of Italian Americans as thugs and morons and then use that word.
Didn't Joan go through a personal tragedy when her husband Edgar committed suicide? H-mmmnnn....wonder how Miss Rivers would feelif someone did a joke along the lines of "A widow goes into a bar and orders a beer....." Sorry, I don't find her joke the least bit funny.
Interesting. I agree that it wasn't about fashion at all but shock. My first time seeing the show and oddly, found Kelly Osborne to have interesting insights on fashion. I didn't know this about her. I'd seen her on DWTS and Dr. Phil but that's it. Funny she was dressed as a WW2 Bomb Girl!
I actually find Kelly Osbourne to be the most insightful of the whole group. I really like her. I honestly respect that she has been able to (at least publicly) conquer her demons and carve out a successful life for herself. She looks fabulous (though I could do without the lavender grey hair), I (as a mom) feel proud of her. That George Kotsiopoulos is what? An actor, he's no fashion expert. Why is he even on the show? Joan dresses for shit, has awful taste in her own wardrobe. And Giuliana is just an idiot. But, we do get to see some great fashion on the show.
An aside: Why in hell would they have Joan on Project Runway, as a judge? She's clueless. I would bet that after her comment Heidi is regretting that decision.
Are you serious? I don't find her insightful at all, just opinionated. With that awful haircolor. I think George and Giuliana know more about fashion than she does.
According to wikipedia, George Kotsiopoulos is a
I guess he has some credentials.
I am no prude but I just don't find Joan funny anymore. I bow to her for being a pioneer for females in stand-up but there is so much time spent being snarky on this show that it limits the number of gowns we see when the program airs. I'd rather cut to the chase and put up a lot of gowns and a very limited amount of time to comment on them.
I suspect from things she's said in the past, she would be okay with someone telling such a joke. I'm not saying it might not hurt her feelings, but I don't think she would express outrage and say they should apologize to family members who had lost someone to suicide.
The first time she went out after her husband's suicide, she said to her daughter (in a restaurant):
'Honey, if your father saw those prices, he'd kill himself all over again.'
Jews are known for their black humor, and Israelis are not different.
I guess that is why even though I find Joan Rivers as a very vulgar person, her humor makes me laugh.
I don't think her joke would work if she wasn't Jewish, though.
BTW, Chaya Ostrower- Ph.D from Tel-Aviv University, picked an interesting Ph.D subject:
If not humor we would have committed suicide - Humor as a defense mechanism in the Holocaust.
Her thesis was published by Yad Vashem in Hebrew. The English version is about to be published as well, but here are some of her thesis work.
An example to the self Jewish humor during Holocaust:
After getting off the train in Auschwitz, one of the Jews who were on the selection to the gas chambers began laughing. The SS asked him why is he laughing? The Jew answered: You are taking me to my death, and I still have to wait in line for this?!
One of the Holocaust survivors said to Dr. Ostrower:
Humor was one of the integral ingredients of mental perseverance. This mental perseverance was the condition for a will to live, to put it in a nutshell. This I am telling you as a former prisoner. However little it was, however sporadic, however spontaneous, it was very important, very important. Humor and satire played a tremendous role, in my opinion. It was a cemetery all right and exactly for that reason, the mere fact that we wanted somehow to preserve our personality, they wanted to make robots out of us.
...This was the integral part of our inner, mental struggle for our human identity, the fact that we could still laugh at things like these.
I was at an event one time and overheard a few Jewish people zinging off Holocaust jokes one after another. I was shocked, but later somebody told me that for some Jewish people it can be like a test for non-Jews. If you can't handle some black humour, then you might very well struggle with being supportive of people whose history has not only included the Holocaust, but persecution on so many levels in so many places at so many times.
What's the difference between a pizza and a Jew? A pizza doesn't scream when it's put in the oven.
I don't remember the exact circumstances, and I can't find any articles online about this, but I do remember back then shortly after Edgar's suicide, someone made jokes or told stories about Joan wanting her husband to kill himself. Those comments obviously angered and hurt her, as I have a fleeting memory of watching her on the news rebut those rumors/remarks, her voice breaking as she vehemently denied wishing her husband's death.
While it's true that shortly after his death, she began telling jokes about it as a way to deal with it, it's also true that these inflammatory remarks were very hurtful to her at the time.
It would be nice if she'd remember that such jokes aren't funny to many people who were hurt by the events she's joking about. IMO, humor that hurts someone else is never funny.
I remember Howard Stern really ripping on the Edgar suicide back in the day so maybe that's who you're thinking of?
I think it's very different to accuse someone of wanting their husband to be dead vs. telling a joke that some people might find offensive. The first is an accusation and potentially slanderous/libelous. The later is of questionable taste depending on the circumstances but is not a personal accusation.
I watch FP strictly for the fashion -- and I DVR it so I can skip through some of the crap. Joan is Joan. I barely even listen to what she has to say anymore, but I do give her props for being an innovative and fearless comedienne (back in the day). I think it's just easier for her these days to do shock humor. It doesn't take nearly as much thought, creativity or wit. IMO, the joke just wasn't funny. I didn't even find it all that shocking; it came off as more juvenile to me.
Kelly and Guiliana are OK, but I despise their reactions to Joan. If you could "see" a laugh track, that's what they would be. They have the same, say, 3 expressions that they use over and over again in response to Joan's crude humor. Not all, but most of the reaction, looks canned.
I may be the minority on this one. Joan constantly uses holocaust/antisemtism in her comedy to remind her audience about this horrible chapter in history. Mel Gibson was her recent go-to-guy for her antisemitism jokes. This particular FP joke probably generates more conversation than the recent New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/s...just-got-more-shocking.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2) I'll say her crass tactics are quite effective.
I can see your point; I guess my bottom line is that if a "joke" really hurts someone, it's not funny.
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