Jesus Had a Wife?

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Rex, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    What should you read?

    Well if you want to read something that will validate and enhance the views you already have, then this would be good: The Belief Instinct: The Psychology of Souls, Destiny, and the Meaning of Life (by Jesse Bering)

    If you want to consider a religious view of faith then Alvin Plantinga's book which I linked to a review of above: Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism

    Or if you want something that will annoy you, read the book by the atheist who wrote the above review of Plantinga: Mind and Cosmos: Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False (by Thomas Nagel)
  2. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Uh, since we sorta know each other, can't I just borrow them from you? :saint:
  3. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    sorta? :lol:

    I don't have all of them yet. I was hoping I could borry them from you after you get them. :saint:
  4. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    And, of course, if you consider religion to be mythology, to explain natural phenomenon that was beyond "scientific" understanding.

    That is the most unfortunate aspect of organized religion. I understand the concept that if you believe and have faith, that it is difficult to accept that others believe differently. And, I even can comprehend the need to persuade. The operative word being persuade, not bully. But, to consider anything different from your beliefs to be justification for violence - NEVER!
  5. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Not really. If there was a God, then God could make his existence completely obvious. Until He/She/It does, it is logical to assume there is none and it takes faith to believe there is a God.

    Otherwise you are saying that it is a leap of faith to not believe that my next-door neighbor isn't secretly an alien from another planet or that the Abdominal Snowman doesn't exist.

    IOW believing something doesn't exist when there is no prove it exists is not a faith-based belief.
  6. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    The Abdominal Snowman exists! :cold:
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    It was Eric B. who said that. The Wikipedia article started out by pointing to the writings that everyone points to as proof but aren't contemporary. I didn't get much further than that because I found the writing kind of turgid and I didn't see anything new to make it worth slogging through.

    It's not that I believe Jesus absolutely can't be an historical figure, btw. I just think the evidence is weak and I think that's interesting. Because all my younger life when I was told that this was indisputable by people who used this supposedly indisputable fact to bolster their arguments for believing a lot of other stuff that, if some religion they thought was made up believed it, they'd laugh hysterically at how stupid those people were. And then I find out that it really isn't all that indisputable. Maybe the mainstream scholars have stopped disputing it, but even they agree with the facts that the people who do dispute it use to make their arguments.

    In this sense, not believing Jesus was an historical figure is very different from not believing in evolution and instead believing in Intelligent Design. Because to disbelieve in evolution and believe in Intelligent Design, you have to disbelief in established facts and ignore the scientific method. But to not believe Jesus was an historical figure, all you are saying is that you don't think the evidence that is out there meets a certain burden of proof. You don't have to explain away anything or twist established facts like you do if you believe that the earth is 6000 years old or that dinosaurs and man lived at the same time.

    To get back to the original subject of this thread... if Jesus was indeed an historical figure, then I think he absolutely had a wife.
  8. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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    And he is churning!
  9. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    So part of your motivation for doubting that Jesus is historical is because it runs counter to what some religious believers have said to you?

    It is however, very similiar to how climate change deniers approach information on climate change. Not enough evidence. That's valid. I don't think there is ultimately enough evidence for any knowledge. Speaking as a skeptic.
  10. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Norlite and (deleted member) like this.
  11. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Lend me the one(s) you have and we'll make a deal. :bribe:
  12. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    jeez did I actually type "borry"? That's abdominal. :fragile:
  13. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Once again, you have dragged a thread into the gutter with insulting comments and by ignoring the issue at hand, in this case the absence or sufficiency of neutral, direct, contemporary evidence of that Jesus was an actual, living person.

    As far as I can tell, no one here is arguing that the existence of Jesus can be disproved. I, for one, don't think it can be.

    But you obviously have your own agenda.

    BlueRidge, you asked me a question some time back. If other posters' responsies didn't answer it to your satisfaction, feel free to send me a Private Message.
  14. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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    No thank you. I'd rather have a public discussion.
  15. milanessa

    milanessa engaged to dupa

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  16. heckles

    heckles Well-Known Member

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    The greatness of Charo is proof that God exists.
  17. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    There are no neutral sources--particularly in antiquity. To assume there was displays a staggering ignorance of the time period and historiography in general.

    Do you believe in the existence of Alexander the Great?

    Julius Caesar?

    Yes or no?

    As for my agenda, it's battling anti-intellectualism. I'm quite passionate about that.

    For IA, I'll get back to your question later tonight.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
  18. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    vagabond is relatively new and may not realize that agal is a religious studies professor or department chair of some sort.
  19. DAngel

    DAngel Active Member

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  20. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Maybe there's just a misunderstanding here. A neutral source, to me, would be a tax or census record, and those certainly existed in antiquity. If you mean all the writers whose writings have survived have an agenda, well, that hasn't changed in 2 or 3000 years.
  21. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

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    Joseph Campbell studies cultural myths, he is not a mythicist who embraces them. There is a difference. Mythology is an important element in cultural anthropology because a culture's mythology, is a reflection of their cultural history and are often rooted in real events which took place in antiquity and have evolved over time. Which describes all religious canon. To paraphrase Marshall Sahlins, mythical realities are a reflection of historical metaphors.
  22. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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  23. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Nope.

    For one thing, I have no "motivation" for doubting that Jesus was an historical figure. For the most part, I don't care and it doesn't impact me on a day-to-day basis. Also, what other people believe is irrelevant to me. I changed my belief in Jesus as an historical figure not based on their belief but on learning new facts that I didn't know before.

    In this case, not only was I taught that Jesus was an historical figure but that there WERE contemporary documents that supported his existence. But now I find out that isn't true and that the first mention of him in historical documents is in histories written about 90-100 years later.

    So first of all, I was lied to as a child. I find that interesting. Did the nuns who taught us that there were mentions of Mary and Joseph in the census and that there were records of Jesus' crucifixion kept by the court at the time know that was a lie or where they just repeating what they were taught without investigating for themselves?

    The next thing that interests me is the reaction you get when you bring up the fact that there are no contemporary records. Some people counter with reasonable-sounding arguments. But many, many people have the intellectual equivalent of a hissy fit. Or they fall back into faith-based pronouncements. You don't often get that reaction when you question other facts that people believe. It doesn't seem to stab at their core like questioning this particular belief does. Again... interesting to me.

    As for doubting and my motivating for doubting, I tend to approach things as "prove it to me and until you do, I will doubt" rather than "I'll accept conventional wisdom until given proof to the contrary". So I'm starting from a position of doubt on many, many issues most of which have nothing to do with either religion or my childhood or what other people believe. I didn't always approach life this way but I've been burned enough over time by repeating stuff I learned without questioning and then finding out I was spreading misinformation that now I am more cautious about just believing stuff because that's what they teach you in school or you read it in the news or an expert told me.
  24. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: That's an abomination! :D

    Yes, and while this may be Agal's field of expertise. And while I may agree with much of what she is saying in this thread. I do think we could do without the "ignorance" comments. We can debate things here without creating animosity.
  25. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if Jesus had a wife but I do know for a fact that Jesus took the wheel.
    skipaway and (deleted member) like this.
  26. AxelAnnie

    AxelAnnie Well-Known Member

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    Well, we can certainly agree to disagree. I don't agree with your logic. Who would decide when / how G-d would make his existence "completely obvious"? Facebook? Twitter? YouTube? And, how do you know that He doesn't every day in a gazillion ways that some (or many) don't notice or recognize.

    You all know the joke about the farmer in the flood:
    And someone up-thread pointed out that the dictionary definition of faith includes faith that your own conclusions and beliefs are correct.:)
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  27. Angelskates

    Angelskates Active Member

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    MacMadame, I'm curious about your answers to agal's questions about Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar? I'm also curious about why you're choosing not to answer.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  28. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

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    No and yes. Contrary to claims here, Romans were very haphazard record-keepers. Sometimes things were recorded, sometimes not. We think of census records today as something very detailed, regular, and kept for generations. That concept of census just didn't exist in antiquity.

    Senate minutes were more likely to be recorded, but they had restricted access. And there was no real cataloguing system. Over time, things recorded on papyrii degraded quickly, and inscriptions were repurposed for contemporary use. So there is no archive that some to think exists. Rather, we have references to archival materials cited in texts written by and for various interested parties. Scholars of antiquity are very good at reading past those agendas to reconstruct historical narratives. So what we know today about the ancient world comes almost exclusively from these sorts of texts.

    That's why it's silly to say "I won't believe anything unless it comes from a neutral source." Everything we know today came from non-neutral sources, but people only have issues when it concerns one particular historical figure. That's not rational.
  29. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Well, the existence or non-existence of Jesus has much more impact on people's beliefs and lives now than Julius or Alex. To me it's a non-argument, the interesting question is how this obscure carpenter, a dissident Jew, had this colossal edifice of belief and institutions constructed around him.

    If, like me, you're looking for the historical reasons, the narrative/myth/storytelling reasons and so on, it's a fascinating set of questions. Of course, if you believe Jesus was the Son of God, then his prominence over the last two millenia is obvious!
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    Not only that, but wouldn't he be surprised had he had an inkling of said edifice and the global and historical impact of it? IOW, I doubt he meant any of it to happen.
  31. PRlady

    PRlady aspiring tri-national

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    Well, yes, if you're a non-believer. If you're a believer, it was all supposed to happen -- although there are so many versions of Christianity it's hard to discern what "it" is.l
  32. cruisin

    cruisin Well-Known Member

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    I would venture to say that he would not have expected the hate that religion creates. In spite of his own crucifixion.
  33. snoopy

    snoopy Team St. Petersburg

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    I suspect the work of Jesus may be like what some people say about Shakespeare. Other people helped to embellish it. That is obvious in some respects as he had twelve apostles and Paul, but even some of the ideas were IMO likely developed by others and stemmed in part from earlier myths. Christmas and virgin births, for example. But also the philosophy. Not to dissimilar to the US bill of rights and the founding fathers.

    The particular genius of Jesus or the Jesus story, IMO, is tearing down the concept of other. I know people say all religions have a do unto others clause but I think the gospels take it to a whole new level really not seen in other major religions. The best things from Christians stem from this seed of thought and the worst things come from when they blatantly ignore it.

    Oh, and if I were going to write somebody out of the script, it would be Paul. But unfortunately, nobody ever says he didn't exist.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  34. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    By definition, if we don't notice or recognize, it's not completely obvious.

    I don't know enough about those two figures to have an opinion.
  35. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Except there aren't any written works that are attributed directly to Jesus. So he's not like Shakespeare because no one says that he wrote anything in the Bible.
  36. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    How about Socrates? Was he a real person, or a character in works written by Plato?
  37. skipaway

    skipaway Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  38. MacMadame

    MacMadame Internet Beyotch

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    Heck, what about Plato? :D
  39. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

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  40. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    And we all know that the Vatican has no vested interest in this :p