Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by AJ Skatefan, Aug 28, 2013.
And are reading this thread closely and reacting accordingly.
I think they're doing the sport a great service. They're adding spice to a dull, tired, and outdated recipe, IMO. Sure, all people aren't going to like it, but whatever, find a source you do like.
Bottom line: Jenny and Dave know their s***. Dave's snarkiness ISN'T going away, so if you have an issue with that, it is most definitely on you. However, he HAS toned it down a LOT, especially since he has started adult skating. However, (and this is my opinion), I agree with a lot of the things he says. He may not have the most PC way of saying it, but I do agree with most of his opinions.
I also think many of you are seeing this incorrectly. TSL was ALWAYS going to make hay with whatever response they got in regard of their credentials. You may think the "call to arms" was unprofessional or in bad taste, but.... you're all talking about them, visiting their site, and at least looking at the videos, so the attention they've gotten ultimately helps. It ALSO helps their narrative of being "outsiders" and speaking truth to power.
So, by all means, haters, continue to fan the flames, you're only making them more popular.
Also, to the comment about them wanting it both ways: I can see your point, however, isn't a good reporter/commentator able to wear many hats? At the end of the day, this is something that is less than a year old, so of course, Jenny and Dave are going to be doing much of it themselves. The fact that some people can't separate "opinions" from "hard news" just means that their filters are poor.
Jeremy Abbott DID give an inane and "foot in mouth" answer to the anti-gay Russia laws. I see no problems with what TSL said in regards to him or that response, but they DID go on to say that if the USFSA hung him out to dry, as they have before. They assigned proper blame all around, IMO.
And I do understand that this is a figure skating board, which means we all hold everything against everyone for everything they've done, ever. However, some of you are saying some nasty things about Dave, just as Dave was back during his AJ days... maybe you'd have more "moral high ground" credibility if you weren't so spiteful.
By all means, everyone, continue. This thread is HIGHLY entertaining.
There's a BIG distinction between a "reporter" and a "commentator". A good writer is able to perform both roles, but if s/he wants to be taken seriously as either, they have to choose which they want to be. Good reporters don't insert their own opinions directly into a story. Good commentators briefly recount the relevant facts and then offer their analysis.
I don't think it's the "people" reading or viewing TSL that have the problem with poor filters. I think it's TSL that doesn't have the most accurate sense of professional conduct for either reporters or commentators.
Seriously, if this is an example of the level of discussion you want to encourage, you're not doing your own credibility much good either.
Not sure this makes sense as typed, the first sentence doesn't seem complete, ..."but they DID go on to say that if the USFSA (sic) hung him out to dry, as they have before." ??? Maybe he left something out???
13 total posts to date?
If they had been told they didn't meet the requirements, that would be one thing. (There's no argument that what they do is original, but they could have difficulty with the sustained argument.) However, they were told there wasn't space.
Was Michael Buckley given credentials for US Nationals or not? His Wikipedia article describes him as "an American Internet celebrity, comedian and vlogger. Noted for his vlog What the Buck?!, Buckley comments on popular culture events and celebrities." If he was, and he meets the criteria for credentials, I don't see why he would, and TSL wouldn't. He's hardly less snarky.
There's a difference between criminal and civil actions. For some crimes, prosecutors don't need a complaint to be obligated to pursue it. There are certainly precedents in contract law where if a party doesn't insist on provisions being enforced, the contract is considered renegotiated by mutual consent. I don't know if this principle applies to copyright. I know there are networks that are diligent about getting content removed from YouTube, and that the Balanchine Trust is particularly vigilant about having videos (and channels) removed.
If anything, excerpts as short as the ones they were showing would whet the appetite and have the potential to increase DVD sales, but it's unlikely that 15-20 seconds of Jeff Buttle will make someone not buy the DVD. Oh, wait, for the most part, TV networks they don't make commercial, high-quality DVDs (or downloads) available.
I was hardly "media-shaming" anyone. I was comparing a video broadcast that is targeted at a younger market of fans and newbies for which TSL's tone and content are a perfect match and whose stated goal is to increase the popularity of skating to a very different type of program. Their goals and values are reflected in their interviews and "This and That" segments. I don't have to like them, but I'm not their target demographic, just like I'm not Miley Cyrus' in any of her incarnations.
manleywoman doesn't have the same goals or methods: her podcasts are a treasure trove for those who are already fans and appreciate the history, including the people who aren't skaters. That doesn't mean someone new to the sport won't find them and appreciate them, but from what I can see, her goal is to recognize the people who have made the sport's history and to make sure their stories are accessible and not lost, at great expense, and for the person whose been doing the written transcriptions to give them even greater exposure. Her subjects are people that every skater should be taught about, but, like the baseball players who make bazillions because of Curt Flood's efforts and don't even recognize his name, many know nothing about them.
In that case I feel they should have made that clear from the outset.
Like I said before, can't have it both ways. If you want to be on the gossip side of things, that's fine - but accept that when you turn around and ask to be respected as a legit outlet, not everyone will see it favorably.
I may not like TSL's format (far too gossipy/catty for me - I would prefer more hard analysis and constructive criticism, something else I think is missing in skating coverage) but I do appreciate what they've done making the skaters' personalities more accessible to the fans through their interview series. I think they should make their intentions clear. Who exactly is their audience? They might get current fans more invested, but will their strategy bring in new fans who might be on the fringe?
and all in this thread! It's either Dave or his Mother!
If they want to be the TMZ for figure skating then so be it. I'm pretty sure TMZ isn't getting backstage passes at events.
Try it this way:
BRILLIANT DEDUCTION WATSON! Execpt... no.
Also, I've been reading this message board for a long time. Anyway, when did number of posts start to matter? I just find this whole thread hilarious.
Yeah sorry, bad editing on my part.
To evaluate the "not enough space" argument, you'd have to ask whether Buckley requested and was granted press credentials for the SLC senior B, or whether TSL was refused credentials for Nationals. The amount of space available at the two events is probably not comparable.
Do we know of anyone who had little exposure to figure skating, found The Skating Lesson, and became interested as a result? Or is it also mostly of interest to people who are already fans of the sport?
A few weeks ago, I was visiting my sister, who does not follow figure skating. I started watching an episode of This and That. About five minutes into the program, she looked over to my computer, watched for a few minutes, and replied "Who are they? They are so annoying." So I can say for sure that there is at least one non-skating fan that did not become interested in skating because of TSL.
Jenny and Dave posted this link on their twitter today, Johnny Weir is in Georgia with his husband for the Jewish holidays, he skated Schindler's List for them at a local skating rink. Johnny tweeted a thank you to the rink for having him.
Johnny Weir-Voronov ‏@JohnnyGWeir 15m
Thank you Duluth Ice Forum in Duluth, GA and Georgia Figure Skating Club for having me at your facility this week. Excited to come back! ��
The Skating Lesson ‏@SkatingLesson 3h
@JohnnyGWeir 's Schindler's List: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8N7kF_gvzI …
I wasn't evaluating the "not enough space" argument: I was responding to a post that argued that TSL didn't qualify under the rules for new media credentials. IMO, if Buckley is qualified, then TSL is. According to what TSL said, USFS didn't tell them they were unqualified, but that there wasn't enough space, so the "unqualified" arguments don't apply.
Has anyone testified that, before they did a google search and found TSL they were sinners, but now that they've listened to Ashley Wagner's, they've seen the light? Not that I've seen so far, but where would they do this? However, what USFS is doing isn't much to establish a new fan base. This is something they haven't tried, with a recognizable name involved, and TSL's style and medium is in line with demographics that USFS could use. There was more of an upside to this than downside, IMO.
The likelihood of someone not interested in skating searching and finding "This and That," for which the listener would need to know a lot about skating to make any sense of it or be interested is very low. However, if a young person were to see Ashley Wagner in CSOI, or on a TV segment, etc., and did a search and the TSL interview showed up, I think they'd be quite interested, if they could get past the intros to where Wagner appears.
Because all this drama is not complete without a musical number...
Dave and Jenny Get Advice From Christine Brennan, Helene Elliott and Phil Hersh!!!
(To the tune "You Gotta Get A Gimmick" from "Gypsy")
You can chat with that Abbott,
Even make it habit,
And spill the tea when teams split,
But you gotta get a press pass
If you wanna be legit!
You can recognize a salchow
Sittin in the back row,
B'rate a bad skate 'til you spit,
But you gotta get a press pass
And not just throw hissy fits!
You can blog... you can vlog,
Wag your head like a dog...
You'll never hear "Hooray!"
But I blog... and I vlog,
And I "U.S.A."
But I do it for "Today."
You'll think that you're in heaven
When you read Christine Brennan,
Writing 'bout each sport known to man!
You'll never get a press pass
If you wanna act like hams!
You can blog... you can vlog,
Swell your eyes like a frog...
Hope people send you dimes....
Me, I blog and I vlog
And I go "L.A"
When I do it for the "Times!"
No one writes like Helene
Always sweet and not mean,
I would never call skaters fat!
'Cause if you want a press pass,
You gotta be more "P.C." than that!
So you blog... and you vlog,
And you "This and That,"
You're YouTube views are low!
Me I write and I tweet
(but I ain't real sweet)
From that great town Chi-ca-go!
Phillip Hersh may be mean
But got more scoops from the Kween
Than all them other ladies you see...
You gotta get a press pass
If you want more viewers than three!
You think you're special
DO something special!
You might get better because...
Be more than just a cynic,
Or two-faced, or a mimic...
Take a look how different we are....
If you want a handle,
Hope for a big scandal!
If you want to make it,
Think before you say it!
I could star in "Cocoon"
But still write for the "Tribune!"
So get yourselves a press pass, and you, too
Could be a STAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
(With apologies to Stephen Sondheim!)
My brain immediately produced a visual of a kickline. All-singing, all-dancing figure skating media musical!
Coming soon to a theatre near you.
zomg, since phil goes last, does that make him dressy tessie tura?
Maybe Jenny and Dave should have peibeck on their podcast for a live performance of this masterpiece....
I think this is my favorite post ever. If anyone is unfamiliar, they should youtube the song and sing along with these lyrics ASAP.
Go Jenny and Dave. I don't have any interest in labeling them. Are they journalists...are they not. Who cares! Their interviews and general banter are just so entertaining. They make me laugh. I learn a lot. I love when Jenny talks about particular skating techniques like swingy jumps that she doesn't like. Their various skater and coach interviews have been so informative and fun. I say more power to them and I'll keep tuning in. They have almost single-handedly renewed my interest in the sport of figure skating because of all the interesting personalities who have been given a public forum through TSL. I am now such an Ashley fan after getting to see her real personality on TSL. Keep going Jenny and Dave and boo to the USFS if they try stamp them out like they did pro skating. They are making skating fresh again for me.
I think it should be a ShibSibs production. Who would you cast in each role?
Although I tried hard not to post in this noise marketing like thread, I can't help giving this masterpiece a big hand.
You are amazing, peibeck
I am now picturing Christine Brennan in the appropriate stripper outfit, blowing into a trumpet...
peibeck = genius!
Haha....now I'm having visions of Jenny as Gypsy Rose Lee and Dave as Mama Rose.
That doesn't mean anything. If you had ever worked for an organization that handles requests for things, you would know better. Once availability (in this case space) becomes a concern, that is the answer you give, whether the person qualifies or not. You don't waste time looking at qualifications when that answer no longer matters. And you surely don't invite arguments by telling someone they don't qualify. That's the hard answer. You give that answer only if there isn't an easier reason to give.
He was credentialed to work with Icenetwork: http://buckhollywood.tumblr.com/post/41532852299/hey-guys-i-am-in-omaha-for-us-figure-skating
I've done exactly what you assert I haven't, for projects for a Fortune 500 company, and to assume that it always works one way is beyond silly. When done the way you say It Is Always Done, the wording can convey different messages, including neutral, giving instructions on how to (possibly) get a different answer next time, information on why this time was different than in the past and whether this time is an exception, etc.
In case you're having trouble with reading comprehension or understanding context, my statement was in response to pages of analysis on why Kirk and Lease were rejected *because are not qualified*, when the answer they were given was that there was no space. There's neither evidence that there was no space, nor evidence that there was space, but USFS took the easy way out and rejected them with a false reason. Since USFS did not tell them they were not qualified, there's no evidence that USFS determined they were unqualified.
All we know for sure is that they said they were rejected because of space, that they asked people to protest on their behalf, and that they claim to have been contacted by professional media who've also been rejected by USFS, with no detail about the who, when, or why.
That puts him in the same category as anyone else who is sent by a major news outlet that is responsible for deciding the eligibility of those they chose to send. While their individual credentials may be more robust than Buckley's, TSL is not a major news outlet, let alone a major USFS partner, that gets to be the decider.
Thanks for the info, Jayar.
BTW, that's a stellar credentials photo.
Peibeck: Amazing post!!!
"I could star in "Cocoon"
But still write for the "Tribune!"
(Totally needed that laugh after flinging blue nail polish all over my bathroom this morning ... )
Separate names with a comma.